Rev. Jeffress Is On The Case: Romney'S A Cultist

[Zakuska]

From your link Mudcat...

"It is another religion," Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said on MSNBC. "It does not have an

orthodox view of the Trinity

and the full and complete deity of Jesus Christ. One sentence from the teaching of Mormonism says it all: 'As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.' They have every right to believe that, and we should protect that right under the First Amendment, and it shouldn't be a disqualification for office....

But it doesn't qualify as orthodox Christianity

."

Not having an "orthodox" view of something doesn't make one "not a Christian" it makes one heterodox. Or a heretical Christian.

"Much of the controversy has focused on the word "cult." The North American Mission Board's 4Truth.net apologetics website lists Mormonism under a "cults and sects of North America" heading. The website gives a theological definition to cults, saying, for instance, that cults "deny or redefine any or all essential Christian doctrines" and also "claim to possess a new and inspired written scripture that supplements or supersedes the authority of the Bible." Cults also, the website said,

"usually claim to be the only true (or the most true) church in the world."

It sounds to me like Baptist Christians are getting pretty creative with their definitions and redefinitions of words (Kind of like what happend to the word "innerrant" and the Chicago statement on Bible innerrancy) so they can still get away with labeling others. Does not Christianity it self claim that exact thing?

"usually claim to be the only true (or the most true) church in the world."

[Storm Rider]

None of this is very surprising. LDS have known for decades that in the view of Southern Baptists and many other churches that we are viewed as a cult and as non-Christian. Just because this poor pastor said it openly on TV is more refreshing to me than anything else. It is honest and puts the cards on the table for all to see. I have a intrinsic distrust of EV. I find them, as a group, to be the most unChristian of all within the Christian body of believers. This position has been proved over and over and over in my life that I noj longer think much about it; I just distruct them and I am on my gard with them. I have many family members that belong to that group and I love them, but I know where they stand. Fortunately, we are able to discuss our differences and we love one another in spite of them.

My fear is that one day a radical EV will one day be elected. I don't fear non-Christians, atheists, even those who act contrary to the teachings of Jesus. I fear those who wear sheep's clothing. These are the ones that burn people at the stake, slaughter the innocents, and are ravening wolves. For me, it is not what they say, but what they do that is most important.

As far as politics goes, please Mr. Jeffress keep talking so that the whole world knows who you are and your opinions. You have become our best missionary.

[Calm]

What is surprising to me is the massive media blitz commenting negatively about it. Last go round it seemed much more acceptable or more of a non story when anyone said "cult" or "nonChristian".

As to the radical EV as pres., it would take a very radical one in my opinion to be dangerous (and he would be no more dangerous to my view than a very radical LDS or Catholic or atheist or whatever, and it would be the radicalness that was the danger) and it would be highly unlikely to occur since I don't see that type of scenario happening. Much more likely that a man with no standards but to get ahead personally to get into the office because he would be willing to fake whatever it took to get elected...

[CQUIRK]

I'm not too worried about a radical EV being elected- Rick Perry isn't going to win in the west, upper mid-west, or the northeastern GOP primaries at all; his appeal is only in the south and lower mid-western states.

I think we can all relax this election cycle... Unless of course Herman Cain is a closeted militant anti-Mormon, which I highly doubt.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't know if he means it this way or not, but the Catholic Church issued an official statement awhile back IIRC that they do not accept our baptism even though the words are right, because we mean different things by those words....IOW when we say those words, we do not mean the standard Trinitarian belief of three persons in one being of one substance.

Not accepting our baptism may mean that officially they do not accept us as Christians, as part of the body of Christ....it would seem so to me from what the Catechism says. This does not mean that all Catholics feel the same way. All the Catholics I know personally have told me they think LDS are Christian, IIRC.

Interesting.

All of the Catholics I know think the LDS are Christian. I guess I was just surprised in the way this good Father presented LDS belief.

He should have worded it the way you did. It makes more sense.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Unless of course Herman Cain is a closeted militant anti-Mormon, which I highly doubt.

You need not worry. Herman does not care to have a theological debate. He is a good guy.

[Zakuska]

Director Griffith Responds to Pastor Jeffress, Defends Mitt Romney

GCIS Director, W. Edward Griffith, responds to remarks made by Pastor Jeffress against Mitt Romney's faith, and defends the Presidential candidate and his religious rights and American values.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYAX6S6-_Kc&feature=related

[Zakuska]

[Zakuska]

Michael Medved defends Mormons and Mitt Romney against statements from Robert Jeffress

Othe goodies:

Jeffress: Mormonism From Pit Of Hell

Jeffress: Satan Behind Catholic Church

[Zakuska]

C.S. Lewis once observed, "Once we allow people to start spiritualizing and refining, or as they might say 'deepening' the sense of the word Christian...it will become a useless word....It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge...It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian"

[Hughes]

There's really two topics here. One is the topic of LDS as Christian or not. The other is the statement, which appears more political than anything else, made by the pastor, because of the timing.

Peoples opinions of what is Christian and what isn't has been discussed quite a bit, and I'm sure it will continue. It seems to me that Jews don't consider Christians, as Jews, because the Christians accept newer revelation, hence the NT. I think likewise, the LDS are not Christian but rather are LSD, due to their acceptance of newer revelation (BoM, BoA , etc.). And just as Christians view Jewish folks as not having the "full" revelation, so also LDS view, non-LDS as not having all the revelation from God either, making them not Christians, but LDS. Of course this is just my view.

As to the political statement from the Pastor, it's completely uncalled for and unnecessary.

[Zakuska]

Good Analysis.

Everyone dodged the direct question.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Let me get this right.

An EV isn't a Christian because he goes to a Black church, a Catholic isn't a Christian because well they're Catholic, and a Mormon isn't a Christian because he isn't a EV or a Catholic.

Now you've got it...

[Stargazer]

Hermann Cain kind of danced around the question, actually. He said that he believed that they believed they were Christians. Implying that Herman may think they ain't.

Don't care, though, I like Mr. Cain anyway.

[Zakuska]

Latest update...

Romney asks Perry to disavow pastor, Perry says no

http://m.sltrib.com/...istian.html.csp

Perry Camp: Romney Needs to ‘Repudiate’ Obamacare

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279839/perry-camp-romney-needs-repudiate-obamacare-katrina-trinko

[Mudcat]

Latest update...

Romney asks Perry to disavow pastor, Perry says no

http://m.sltrib.com/...istian.html.csp

I don't think the request to Perry to repudiate is actually going to be favorable for Romney in the long run. No use in Romney continuing to spotlight an issue that affects him in the polls negatively. Also, some may interpret his comment (fairly or not) as whining a bit.

[ERayR]

I said it before, it is a calculated tactic by the Perry camp. It worked 4 years ago and they are counting on it to work again. I hope that it backfires but at this stage my faith in John Q. Public is not too strong.

[CQUIRK]

It will backfire for Perry; along with how bad he did in tonight's debate, his stances on immigration, and now this.

His candidacy is starting to crash and burn; even EV voters are now starting to flock to Cain.

Good riddance, this jerk is more anti-Mormon then Mike Huckabee.

[frankenstein]

Latest update...

Romney asks Perry to disavow pastor, Perry says no

What I have seen is that Perry camp stated that one does have to agree with every word out of another person mouth simply because the person speaking gave an endosrement. As much as I do not like Perry, it is poor form and just mudsliniing from romney not to thank perry for the statement Perry,s camp did make.

Should we lds disavow those lds leaders or not who have made offensive statements?

[Stargazer]

What I have seen is that Perry camp stated that one does have to agree with every word out of another person mouth simply because the person speaking gave an endosrement. As much as I do not like Perry, it is poor form and just mudsliniing from romney not to thank perry for the statement Perry,s camp did make.

Should we lds disavow those lds leaders or not who have made offensive statements?

Michael Medved thinks Perry's campaign is going to tank and he will withdraw before the Iowa caucuses (or is it the Ohio?). One of Medved's callers today claimed that when it became public knowledge that it is current LDS Church doctrine that black people are "indwellt by evil spirits" that Romney's campaign would be destroyed. I nearly laughed myself unconcious. Where do these people find this kind of "information"?

And today, Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey endorsed Mitt.

I am beginning to think that we faithful Church members are getting closer to the day when we are going to have learn how to answer questions put by our curious friends and neighbors -- and know how to respond to bizarre theories like the one that Medved's caller brought up.

Ought to be fun. Sort of.

I'm not endorsing Romney by the way -- I am still hoping that Herman Cain will be able forge a strong campaign so we can see more of what he is made of.

[jo1952]

Stargazer,

As a member of the SBC myself, in general I was very disappointed with the view he portrayed. IMO, his usage of "cult" was a tactic that attempted to polarize EV's against Romney and for his political choice of Perry. Given the negative media coverage, it may very well have back fired on him.

Regardless though, I think Jeffress gets it wrong on a number of points, these two, IMO are the most serious.

From the article

"We understand Mormonism is not Christianity and thus the difference between somebody who's moral and good like Mitt Romney and a true born-again follower of Christ,"

The usage of "We", is quite bothersome. He elicits the Southern Baptist Convention and then elects to speak for us all. A bit pompous and misappropriated on his part. Jeffress holds no position with the SBC, not even a member of the Executive Committe, so his flippant usage of "We" is brazenly misplaced.

The other issue, is that he is acting as though he has the power to determine Romney's relationship with Christ. This is the one that chaps my cheeks. That is Christ's job to determine, not his and I don't imagine many SBC members would disagree with my sentiment there.

I am glad, that he claims his statements were made as a "private citizen". However, I think that is more of a duck on his part that is a response to some of the pressure he has been given. Initially he didn't mind making his comments public, nor did he mind tossing the SBC into his "private" comments.

All that said, the SBC does have an article from the "Baptist Press" news division on Jeffress' comments. If you want to get a more inline presentation from the SBC, you and any interested LDS might want to give it a read.

http://www.bpnews.ne...ws.asp?id=36303

Regardless, as the election comes closer, I don't imagine this is the last we will see of pejoratives slung at LDS. It's sad that political motivations are paraded about in a very poor disguise as spiritual motivations.

Regards,

Mudcat

I know I've said it before - but I can't help it if it needs to be said again. You've got to love the Mudcat!

God bless you,

jo

[CQUIRK]

*Another update*

Apparently Pastor Robert Jeffress is taking way more heat then the LDS Church right now because of his remarks; 'Americans United for Separation of Church and State' is calling for an IRS investigation of his church, and the Anti-Defamation League has put out a statement condemning his remarks.

http://blog.chron.co...to-be-an-issue/

[ebeddoulos]

The EVs such as Robert Jeffress, Rob Bowman and others of like ilk are desperately trying to parse their definition of "cult" in order to distance themselves from the cry of bigotry over their use of the term yet still take advantage of the public's negative connotation. Then they redefine the word “Christian” to mean evangelical protestant, and use it to convey or withhold legitimacy.Disingenuous does not begin to describe it. This is yet another example of EVs marginalizing the faith of others only to have it bite them in the region of their posterior. And they wonder why their denominational membership continues to decline.

[Messenger]

I think this post should be removed. I dont care for a forum that disobeys its own rules - this is strickly politics and everyone knows it.

[Mudcat]

I said it before, it is a calculated tactic by the Perry camp. It worked 4 years ago and they are counting on it to work again. I hope that it backfires but at this stage my faith in John Q. Public is not too strong.

Hi ERay,

I agree, it was most likely a calculated tactic, but emphasis mine, I don't see that this tactic actually worked on the last go round. The candidate that promoted such ideas back then, didn't even get a VP shot. I am at a bit of a loss as to why the Perry camp, would actually think this was a good strategy.

It will backfire for Perry; along with how bad he did in tonight's debate, his stances on immigration, and now this.

His candidacy is starting to crash and burn; even EV voters are now starting to flock to Cain.

Good riddance, this jerk is more anti-Mormon then Mike Huckabee.

CQ,

Emphasis mine, it's a bit subjective on my part, but given the statement from the Perry camp that he believes Romney is a Christian, I wouldn't think he actually has the heartfelt anti-Mormon sentiment that the Huckster did. It was a poorly planned and poorly thought out political tactic.

*Another update*

Apparently Pastor Robert Jeffress is taking way more heat then the LDS Church right now because of his remarks; 'Americans United for Separation of Church and State' is calling for an IRS investigation of his church, and the Anti-Defamation League has put out a statement condemning his remarks.

http://blog.chron.co...to-be-an-issue/

Regardless of his statements, I don't find such a suggested investigation comforting. The last thing anyone needs is the "thought police" using this as some vehicle to further shackle our First Amendment rights.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

I get aggravated when I see groups do this sort thing. The First Amendment was put in place to protect religion from the government, not the other way round.

I have a feeling this issue will loose steam shortly. But if not, I hope Romney doesn't try to support this sort of thing. It would put him on the wrong side of a First Amendment issue and would polarize a number of voters.

Regards,

Mudcat