The Curse Of Cain

[Zakuska]

So where did the curse of Cain doctrine come from anyways?

http://en.wikipedia....nd_mark_of_Cain

We are told here that its pretty Ancient... however... as it has to do with Mormons its seems that it was adopted by some early LDS who came out of Baptist/Methodist/Presbyterian Christianity, and found some more support in the BOA.

This doctrine is what split the Unified Baptist Church in two the NBC and SBC:

The split between the Northern and Southern Baptist organizations arose over slavery and the education of slaves. At the time of the split, the Southern Baptist group used the curse of Cain as a justification for the practice. In fact, most 19th and early 20th century Southern Baptist congregations in the southern United States taught that there were two separate heavens; one for blacks, and one for whites.[15]

Here is some pretty Good documentation of Southern Ministers of various denominations, Baptist, Methodist, etc. preaching the curse of Cain to perpetuate their rights to hold slaves.

Theodore Clapp

First Congregational Church of New Orleans 1838

"fully convinced of the rectitude of Slavery"

From studying the Bible

Samuel Dunwoody

Methodist Minister 1837

Claimed God in the Bible made provision for perpetual slavery and the Negro race, was condemned to an existence in slavery

W.T. Hamilton - 1844

Delivered a sermon entitled:

"Duties of Masters and Slaves; or, domestic slavery as Sanctioned by the Holy Bible"

Hundreds to thousands of sermons were given over the pulpits of Southern churches during the time.

A subtheme the southern preachers found in their Bibles to further justify slavery was the doctrine of racial inequality. This doctrine held that those of the black race were inferior to those of the white race, a concept the preachers beleived was supported through the biblical stories of the curse of ham and/or the punishment of Cain. [16]

During 1844-1845 two reverends debated from the Bible the subject of Slavery.

- Reverend Richard Fuller (3rd President of the SBC) Debated for Slavery the curse of Ham/Cain as sanctioned by the Bible.

- Reverend Fancis Wayland Bapitst Clergy man from the North Debated Against it.

http://books.google....baptist&f=false

Here is that sermon: ""Duties of Masters and Slaves; or, domestic slavery as Sanctioned by the Holy Bible"

http://books.google....20Bible&f=false

Nothing like SOLA ESCRITURA to guide men into ALL truth!

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Here ya go: "Spencer W. Kimball and the Revelation on Priesthood", by his son Edward L. Kimball for BYU Studies.

[Robert Higgin]

Thankful the Church finally grew beyond the constraints of American prejudice. Thanks to President Kimball for visionary and courageous leadership.

[thesometimesaint]

Robert Higgin:

True, but I believe it started with Joseph Smith, lay dormant for a while then got a big boost from David O. McKay.

[Zakuska]

I find it funny that people of the Baptist persuasion ding LDS Apostles for the doctrine, when at the same time. Dr Fuller the third president of the Southern Baptist Convention, taught it explicitly as justification for the Southern Slave holders.

Domestic slavery considered as a Scriptural institution: in a correspondence ...

By Richard Fuller, Francis Wayland

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[Minos]

What is your point Zakuska? Do not start threads to malign other religions.

[BCSpace]

The point, which seems plain enough, is the double-standard of some arguing against the LDS Church using the old Curse of Cain notion and that such a notion did not orginate with the LDS Church.

[Zakuska]

The point, which seems plain enough, is the double-standard of some arguing against the LDS Church using the old Curse of Cain notion and that such a notion did not orginate with the LDS Church.

Bingo.

My last link shows a year long debate between a Baptist Minister from the North and a Baptist Minister from the south debating from the Bible the curse of Cain doctrine. Right around this point in time the "unified Baptist Church" split in two and the SBC was formed (Fuller University anyone?) and shortly after the civil war.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[Kevin Christensen]

Stirling Adams here provides reviews of two important books on the history of Biblical interpretation on the topic:

http://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=7582

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Zakuska]

Stirling Adams here provides reviews of two important books on the history of Biblical interpretation on the topic:

http://byustudies.by...aspx?title=7582

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks for the Link kevin.

[Zakuska]

What is your point Zakuska? Do not start threads to malign other religions.

Im not starting a thread to "malign" other religions. I'm starting a thread to figure out where the idea came from.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Im not starting thread to "malign" other religions. I'm starting a thread to figure out where the idea came from.

It was clearly taught as I was growing up in a different Faith; to this day all three Churches of my youth are segregated (now by choice)...Dr Martin Luther King Jr, taught that '11:00 on Sunday is the most segregated how of the week". Sad but true. I never attended a Church with people of another race until this one when I joined in April 1979.

[cinepro]

That would be awesome if there were a church that was chosen by God to teach the truth, and when they accidentally borrowed untruths from the false churches in their culture, God had someone he could talk to and correct the mistake.

He could be all like "Hey! That idea is false! Don't teach it!"

Edited October 10, 2011 by cinepro

[Jesterss]

Im not starting thread to "malign" other religions. I'm starting a thread to figure out where the idea came from.

If it came from somewhere else, then it is in admittance that it was borrowed, therefore, not prophetically instituted by JS. Is this also your point?

I don't think it is, but if you are looking to place blame elsewhere, it is by your own admittance that it was borrowed and not inspired. So was the BOM fully inspired or just parts?

[altersteve]

If it came from somewhere else, then it is in admittance that it was borrowed, therefore, not prophetically instituted by JS. Is this also your point?

I don't think it is, but if you are looking to place blame elsewhere, it is by your own admittance that it was borrowed and not inspired. So was the BOM fully inspired or just parts?

The curse of Cain is not discussed in the Book of Mormon.

[KevinG]

I think the curse of Cain falsehood crept into LDS practice because it was already a part of the bleief system of some converts as well as the pressures from the outside accusing Mormons of being abolitionists.

On the one hand it is sad we hung on to it for so long. On the bright side continuing revelation means we give up false traditions once we are prepared to receive further light and knowledge from our Father in Heaven.

[thesometimesaint]

Jesterss:

The inspiration came from God, the interpretation of that inspiration came from Joseph Smith.

[KevinG]

That would be awesome if there were a church that was chosen by God to teach the truth, and when they accidentally borrowed untruths from the false churches in their culture, God had someone he could talk to and correct the mistake.

He could be all like "Hey! That idea is false! Don't teach it!"

We are that Church. Being able to change depends on our mortal ability to receive that truth. A significant fact in the 1979 revelation was that there was no significant apostacy or scizm of the LDS Church. In fact the revelation was celebrated and embraced by a pluralty of the membership.

[Zakuska]

That would be awesome if there were a church that was chosen by God to teach the truth, and when they accidentally borrowed untruths from the false churches in their culture, God had someone he could talk to and correct the mistake.

He could be all like "Hey! That idea is false! Don't teach it!"

Intresting that your Avatar pokes fun at the prophet who did the very thing you are criticising.

[Mudcat]

If it came from somewhere else, then it is in admittance that it was borrowed, therefore, not prophetically instituted by JS. Is this also your point?

Surely Zak wouldn't directly suggest anything so "disparaging" about his own faith... even though his argument seems to point towards the notion that LDS cribbed the curse of Cain from Southern Baptists.

I think he is going for more of a "I know you are but what am I" thing.

[Zakuska]

I think the curse of Cain falsehood crept into LDS practice because it was already a part of the bleief system of some converts as well as the pressures from the outside accusing Mormons of being abolitionists.

On the one hand it is sad we hung on to it for so long. On the bright side continuing revelation means we give up false traditions once we are prepared to receive further light and knowledge from our Father in Heaven.

Which is sad because it was Joseph Smiths Public teaching on Abolitionism in his campaign for presidence that got him killed.

Perhaps thats why BY imported the teaching when we got to Utah. BY did say something about his distaste for Abolishonists who had pointed their guns in his direction and cursed him as they bid him fairwell to the west.

Its a matter of public record since it was printed in most major newspapers of the time. Even the infamous Expositor had his campaign printed and ridiculed in it.

He wrote in General Smith’s Views:

“The Declaration of Independence ‘holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;’ but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin.” 12 Instead of simply calling for the abolition of slavery, Joseph Smith’s platform would have Congress “pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from members of Congress.” 13

12. History of the Church, 6:197.

13. History of the Church, 6:205.

And verified on the churches officail website:

http://lds.org/ensig...states?lang=eng

General Smith’s Views, his campaign platform announced to the world can be read online here...

http://olivercowdery...0s/1844Smit.htm

Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for "an hour of virtuous liberty on earth, is worth a whole eternity of bondage!" Abolish the practice in the army and navy of trying men by court martial for desertion; if a soldier or marine runs away, send him his wages, with this instruction, that his country will never trust him again; he has forfeited his honor. Make HONOR the standard with all men: be sure that good is rendered for evil in all cases; and the whole nation, like a kingdom of kings and priests, will rise up with righteousness; and be respected as wise and worthy on earth; and as just and holy for heaven; by Jehovah, the author of perfection. More economy in the national and state governments, would make less taxes among the people; more equality through the cities, towns & country, would make less distinction among the people; and more honesty and familiarity in societies, would make less hypocrisy and flattery in all branches of the community; and open, frank, candid, decorum to all men, in this boasted land of liberty, would beget esteem, confidence, union, and love; and the neighbor from any state, or from any country, of whatever color, clime or tongue, could rejoice when he put his foot on the sacred soil of freedom, and exclaim: the very name of "American" is fraught with friendship! Oh! then, create confidence! restore freedom! -- break down slavery! banish imprisonment for debt, and be in love, fellowship and peace with all the world! Remember that honesty is not subject to law: the law was made for transgressors: wherefore, a Dutchman might exclaim: "Ein ehrlicher name ist besser als Reichthum." (a good name is better than riches.)

He wanted the Government to buy the slaves their freedom with the sale of public lands and by docking the pay of public officials in congress and having their wages help pay for the slaves as well. He asked the nation to petition their Government officials to do it. The assination ended his Political campaign.

Lesson learned: Don't mess with Congress and Politicians pay checks or you just might end up dead.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[altersteve]

Which is sad because it was Joseph Smiths Public teaching on Abolitionism in his campaign for presidence that got him killed.

CFR, please. I've never heard that his desire to rid the world of slavery was the cause of his death.

[Zakuska]

CFR, please. I've never heard that his desire to rid the world of slavery was the cause of his death.

Read the Ensign article I linked earlier... Heres Josephs own words on why he ran for president.

http://lds.org/ensig...states?lang=eng

Why Joseph Smith Ran for President

“I would not have suffered my name to have been used by my friends on anywise as President of the United States, or candidate for that office, if I and my friends could have had the privilege of enjoying our religious and civil rights as American citizens, even those rights which the Constitution guarantees unto all her citizens alike. But this as a people we have been denied from the beginning. Persecution has rolled upon our heads from time to time, from portions of the United States, like peals of thunder, because of our religion; and no portion of the Government as yet has stepped forward for our relief. And in view of these things, I feel it to be my right and privilege to obtain what influence and power I can, lawfully, in the United States, for the protection of injured innocence.”

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:210–11.

Joseph Smith died as an Abolishonist.

Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for "an hour of virtuous liberty on earth, is worth a whole eternity of bondage!"

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[cinepro]

Which is sad because it was Joseph Smiths Public teaching on Abolitionism in his campaign for presidence that got him killed.

Wait, wasn't Joseph Smith killed in Illinois, which was a free state, by Illinoisans?

Were any of the killers even slave owners?

Edited October 10, 2011 by cinepro

[cinepro]

We are that Church. Being able to change depends on our mortal ability to receive that truth. A significant fact in the 1979 revelation was that there was no significant apostacy or scizm of the LDS Church. In fact the revelation was celebrated and embraced by a pluralty of the membership.

I don't agree. I haven't seen any reason to believe that LDS of the 19th or early 20th century would have been less accepting of black priesthood holders than the LDS of 1978.

Especially since I'm pretty sure that 99.999% of the LDS who thought black LDS shouldn't have the priesthood felt that way because of what they had been told by Church leaders.

If Brigham Young and subsequent Prophets and apostles had clearly taught that dark skin color was nothing but a result of pigmentation and no indicator of righteousness or worthiness in any way, and that any ideas about "Cain" and skin color were nothing but apostate notions, I suspect the LDS who had enough faith to walk to Utah and practice polygamy would also have had enough faith to believe that as well.

Edited October 10, 2011 by cinepro