Dallin Oak'S Remarks At Ces Fireside

[Daniel2]

In a speech Sunday at a Church Education System (CES) Fireside in the Marriott Center at BYU, Elder Dallin Oaks is reported by The Deseret News as sharing this counsel:

. . . believers should not be deterred by the charge that they are trying to legislate morality and "believers should not shrink from seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions or policies are also favorable to the public health, safety, or morals.

We are enriched by associations with different peoples, which remind us of the wonderful diversity of the children of God. But diversities in cultures and values also challenge us to identify what can be embraced as consistent with our gospel culture and values and what cannot," he said.

I'm curious as to what devout Mormons believe Elder Oaks is speaking about, beyond the one obvious example that comes to mind (referring to Prop 8 ).

Would one accept that his words should apply to "seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions are also favorable to public health, safety, or morals" with regards to:

Sabbath obervance?

Alcohol consumption?

Coffee consumption?

Paying 10% of one's income to the church?

Abortion?

Others...?

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

Daniel2

Edited September 14, 2011 by Daniel2

[Duncan]

In a speech Sunday at a Church Education System (CES) Fireside in the Marriott Center at BYU, Elder Dallin Oaks is reported by The Deseret News as sharing this counsel:

I'm curious as to what devout Mormons believe Elder Oaks is speaking about, beyond the one obvious example that comes to mind (referring to Prop 8 ).

Would one accept that his words should apply to "seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions are also favorable to public health, safety, or morals" with regards to:

Sabbath obervance?

Alcohol consumption?

Coffee consumption?

Paying 10% of one's income to the church?

Abortion?

Others...?

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

Daniel2

I don't know if this goes along with your question but last night I saw a movie called, "The Whistleblower" about a lady fighting sex trafficking. I was tearing up as I saw how it is or at least portrayed and I thought there should be something that society can do to stop all that sickness and torture, so I would be all for legislating to lock up people involved in that and getting the victims out. I guess as an extension of that whole scene is the porn business who for all I know buy and sell innocent people to participate and if we can shut down that then I am all for it

[BCSpace]

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

By one's own morality.

[ERMD]

No

Yes

No

No

Yes

Be more specific

[Scott Lloyd]

In a speech Sunday at a Church Education System (CES) Fireside in the Marriott Center at BYU, Elder Dallin Oaks is reported by The Deseret News as sharing this counsel:

I'm curious as to what devout Mormons believe Elder Oaks is speaking about, beyond the one obvious example that comes to mind (referring to Prop 8 ).

Would one accept that his words should apply to "seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions are also favorable to public health, safety, or morals" with regards to:

Sabbath obervance?

Alcohol consumption?

Coffee consumption?

Paying 10% of one's income to the church?

Abortion?

Others...?

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

Daniel2

Just as it is the right and duty of citizens to safeguard the physical environment of their communities by supporting the enactment of zoning laws, etc., it is also their right and duty to safeguard the moral environment. I don't believe the Church can or should specify in each and every instance when or how its members ought to do this. Rather, in most cases, this is best left up to the individual to determine what his/her course should be, based on personal convictions, prayer and common sense.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[HeatherAnn]

Just as it is the right and duty of citizens to safeguard the physical environment of their communities by supporting the enactment of zoning laws, etc., it is also their right and duty to safeguard the moral environment. I don't believe the Church can or should specify in each and every instance when its members ought to do this. Rather, in most cases, this is best left up to the individual to determine what his/her course should be, based on personal convictions, prayer and common sense.

As Dallin Oak said,

. . . believers should not be deterred by the charge that they are trying to legislate morality and "believers should not shrink from seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions or policies are also favorable to the public health, safety, or morals.

We are enriched by associations with different peoples, which remind us of the wonderful diversity of the children of God. But diversities in cultures and values also challenge us to identify what can be embraced as consistent with our gospel culture and values and what cannot,"

I've been shocked at how blind some people are... and how strongly they believe & try to persuade others to believe that evil is good & good is evil... Even when medical, social & mental health reports clearly indicate those traditionally considered "evil" are in-fact harmful.

We must stand up for what is right - for our well being & for future generations.

[KevinG]

I read that as not having to excuse ourselves from the public discussion over community standards simply because we are religious and others may charge us with trying to "legislate morality".

In my experience with public politics it is not the religionists that have been most adament about shutting off the other side of the debate with accusations of censorship, hatred or bigotry.

[Vance]

What about gambling? (lotteries.)

[zerinus]

In a speech Sunday at a Church Education System (CES) Fireside in the Marriott Center at BYU, Elder Dallin Oaks is reported by The Deseret News as sharing this counsel:

I'm curious as to what devout Mormons believe Elder Oaks is speaking about, beyond the one obvious example that comes to mind (referring to Prop 8 ).

Would one accept that his words should apply to "seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions are also favorable to public health, safety, or morals" with regards to:

Sabbath obervance?

Alcohol consumption?

Coffee consumption?

Paying 10% of one's income to the church?

Abortion?

Others...?

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

Daniel2

It means that it should be done with wisdom and prudence as the Spirit of the Lord dictates.

[orion88]

I would disagree with this particular statement of his:

"People are brothers and sisters under God."

Spiritually speaking, we are either the children of God or the devil,

as Jesus mentioned (John 8:44).

You are only a son or daughter of God if you are led by His spirit

(Romans 8:14). See also John 1:12, Romans 8:19, Philippians 2:15, and

1 John 3:1-2.

A hindu or a muslim, for example, is not my brother.

[Daniel2]

As uncomfortable as the thought is, I'm curious if Elder Oaks believes Lilburn W. Boggs and those who enforced his "Mormon Extermination Order" were correct in promoting "public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith" and their view of "public health, safety, and morality."

Daniel2

Edited September 14, 2011 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

By one's own morality.

What's the difference between "public" and "private" morality, if "public morality" is defined by "one's own morality"...?

Daniel2

[zerinus]

I would disagree with this particular statement of his:

"People are brothers and sisters under God."

Spiritually speaking, we are either the children of God or the devil,

as Jesus mentioned (John 8:44).

You are only a son or daughter of God if you are led by His spirit

(Romans 8:14). See also John 1:12, Romans 8:19, Philippians 2:15, and

1 John 3:1-2.

A hindu or a muslim, for example, is not my brother.

Acts 17

:

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[Nemesis]

I'm curious if Elder Oaks believes Lilburn W. Boggs was correct in promoting what he believed was "public safety and morality" when he signed the Mormon Extermination Order.

Nice Hyperbole. I don't think Oaks remarks even come close to sanctioning the extermination of anyone.

Nemesis

[Pahoran]

In a speech Sunday at a Church Education System (CES) Fireside in the Marriott Center at BYU, Elder Dallin Oaks is reported by The Deseret News as sharing this counsel:

I'm curious as to what devout Mormons believe Elder Oaks is speaking about, beyond the one obvious example that comes to mind (referring to Prop 8 ).

I'm sure that is the "obvious" one to those who are obsessed with it.

Would one accept that his words should apply to "seeking laws to maintain public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith where those conditions are also favorable to public health, safety, or morals" with regards to:

Sabbath obervance?

Yes. For example, laws regulating Sunday trading for retail businesses and non-essential services, and imposing additional costs (such as overtime) on employers for Sunday operations.

Alcohol consumption?

Alcohol consumption is very hard to regulate. However, opening hours for off-licence (liquor stores) and on-licence premises (bars) can be regulated. Laws can be introduced mandating a minimum purchasing age for alcoholic drinks and maximum blood alcohol levels for drivers of vehicles. Laws can also be introduced that would criminalise the supply of alcohol to minors.

Coffee consumption?

I don't understand. What social ills do you see arising from coffee consumption? Does a coffee drinker endanger others on the road, for example? Is coffee consumption linked to domestic violence?

Paying 10% of one's income to the church?

The law should permit this and place no obstacles in the way. The law should not enforce it, control it or regulate it. The state should not be involved in collecting or disbursing any such donations.

Abortion?

Naturally.

Others...?

As and when they arise. Examples might include opposing such changes as the legalisation of prostitution, the decriminalisation of harmful substances and/or deregulation of medications.

How would one go about defining "public morals"...?

I haven't really thought about that as an overarching question. Perhaps on an "I know it when I see it" basis.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Nemesis]

I'm curious if Elder Oaks believes Lilburn W. Boggs was correct in promoting what he believed was "public safety and morality" when he signed the Mormon Extermination Order.

Nice Hyperbole. I don't think Oaks remarks even come close to sanctioning the extermination of anyone.

Nemesis

[KevinG]

I'm curious if Elder Oaks believes Lilburn W. Boggs and those who enforced his "Mormon Extermination Order" were correct in promoting "public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith" and their view of "public health, safety, and morality."

Daniel2

I doubt that Elder Oaks would ever equate extermination of anyone with public health and safety. That's a pretty cynical view on your part.

Our federal and state constitutions are written upon a foundation of shared community standards and freedom of belief. Due to differences in beliefs this requires an ongoing discussion and debate over what our community standards should be. No one group should have to apologize for being an active part of that debate.

I suspect the proponents of Proposition 8 or Sunday sales of alcohol feel just as protective of their First Amendment rights as any Latter-day Saint. To bring up the spectre of the elimination of the Saints by a murderous mobocracy is a poor, awkward and just plain bad attempt at humor, irony or whatever that was supposed to be.

[KevinG]

What's the difference between "public" and "private" morality, if "public morality" is defined by "one's own morality"...?

Daniel2

It is the shared morality of the community. As much as that may irk someone who doesn't agree with the community standard, that is what it always has been in our representative democracy and what will be as long as our constitution exists to protect us from a dictatorship (even a beneign one).

[BCSpace]

By one's own morality.

What's the difference between "public" and "private" morality, if "public morality" is defined by "one's own morality"...?

Ideally, no difference at all. However, public morality is a reflection of the competition between everyone's own morality. It is because of this that public morality is indeed determined by one's own morality; and another's and another's.....

Edited September 14, 2011 by BCSpace

[Zakuska]

I would disagree with this particular statement of his:

"People are brothers and sisters under God."

Spiritually speaking, we are either the children of God or the devil,

as Jesus mentioned (John 8:44).

You are only a son or daughter of God if you are led by His spirit

(Romans 8:14). See also John 1:12, Romans 8:19, Philippians 2:15, and

1 John 3:1-2.

A hindu or a muslim, for example, is not my brother.

Everyone is a member of the Human Family... Not just some special initiated bunch of groupies.

Acts 17

25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Eph 3

¹⁴ For this reason I kneel before the Father, ¹⁵ from whom every family^[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. ¹⁶ I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, ¹⁷ so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, ¹⁸ may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, ¹⁹ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Romans 10:12

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

[Zakuska]

As uncomfortable as the thought is, I'm curious if Elder Oaks believes Lilburn W. Boggs and those who enforced his "Mormon Extermination Order" were correct in promoting "public conditions or policies that assist them in practicing the requirements of their faith" and their view of "public health, safety, and morality."

Daniel2

Perhaps Daniel should have been a party to the political process and he might not have ended up in the Lions den for practicing his religion.

[Facsimile 3]

Regulating alcohol consumption to the extent that we do in Utah is embarrassing to me as a Utahn. Things need to change. Other people live here too and they don't have the Church as a social outlet.

We need to decide if we are Iran (positive freedom) or Libertarian (negative freedom) in Utah. We mostly just pick and choose to force our preferences on others without evaluating whether or not we are being rational or consistent. It's an immature way of dealing with politics and people outside of the Church call us out on it (justly so).

Edited September 14, 2011 by Facsimile 3

[KevinG]

Everyone is a member of the Human Family... Not just some special initiated bunch of groupies.

Tell that to the Yanomami.

[KevinG]

Regulating alcohol consumption to the extent that we do in Utah is embarrassing to me as a Utahn. Things need to change. Other people live here too and they don't have the Church as a social outlet.

We need to decide if we are Iran (positive freedom) or Libertarian (negative freedom) in Utah. We mostly just pick and choose to force our preferences on others without evaluating whether or not we are being rational or consistent.

The LDS Church in Utah is an easy target for complaints about political influence. In my experience the Baptists and Evangelicals have much more sway over moral politics in Georgia than the Saints do in contemporary Utah. Sunday Alcohol sales in Georgia were a political third rail here until a year ago, and it still won't make you many fans.

[Facsimile 3]

The LDS Church in Utah is an easy target for complaints about political influence. In my experience the Baptists and Evangelicals have much more sway over moral politics in Georgia than the Saints do in contemporary Utah. Sunday Alcohol sales in Georgia were a political third rail here until a year ago, and it still won't make you many fans.

I'm not saying we are worse than mainstream Christians, but I still think we deserve a spanking.

http://www.fox13now.com/videobeta/?watchId=1f76a133-770a-4a86-af32-d1ace2e5d34a

Edited September 14, 2011 by Facsimile 3