The Gospel According To The Apostle Paul

[Zakuska]

Many Christian Ministries out there pick apart the 3rd and 4th articles of faith and claim they are comparing them to the Bible by cherry picking a bunch of out of context Bible quotes to try and contradict what the articles of Faith state. They all inevitably end up with the same conclusion that the "LDS Gospel" (if there is such a thing Because there really only is one Gospel, The Gospel of Jesus Christ) is contra the made up Gospel of Grace alone Faith Alone Salvation and the Bible.

Try this search to see what I mean:

http://www.google.co...-Address&ie==

One of those who claim this is our good ex-LDS friend Shawn McCraney of Channel 20 TV fame.

So now lets look at the Articles of Faith:

The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

...

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:

first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;

second, Repentance;

third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;

fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

One of the favorite Scirptures Evangelicals like to quote at this point to try and prove that Mormons teach "another Gospel", and we've all had this quoted at us ad nausium, is...

Gal 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Apostle John says something very similar to Paul right here:

2 John 1

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In not so many words he is saying more or less the same thing as Paul. That not abiding in the "doctrine of Christ" is transgression and those who do this are accursed because they have not the father or the son. These are my two witnesses I'm calling upon to be our judge.

The Antinomian, Grace Alone Faith Alone friends, tell us that the Gospel is nothing more than "Christ Crucified" not Baptism or anything else is needed or can be added to this "Finished Work" of Christ.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

So what I propose is we examine the Gospel Paul preached to the Romans to see who exactly is preaching the Gospel of Paul and Jesus Christ, and who is teaching the "Accursed Other Gospel".

You would think that it would be enough to convince the Evangelical crowd that the first pinciples of the Gospel are Faith, Repetance, Baptisms (Water & Holy Ghost by laying on of hands) when the Author of Hebrews reminds his students that they aren't very bright, hard of hearing and need to be reminded what the Mama's milk of the Gospel is:

Heb 5

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Here we have the 'doctrine of Christ' (aka the Gospel) consisely layed out for us so even a 5th grader could understand.This is the "doctrine of Christ" that John was speaking of that we need to abide in to have "the father and the son".

But I digress... lets move on to the Gospel of the Apostle Paul presented to the Romans by Paul.

Starting with Chapter one... I'll add my coments as we go along and the important things I'll mark out in red.

<to be continued>

Edited September 15, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

If you will please notice:

1) He speaks of the ressurection of Jesus Christ

2) A couple times he commends his hearers for their Faith in Jesus Christ and his ressurection, in verse 12 he affirms that his Gospel he preached and the Faith he beleives in in the Same the Roman Gentiles (v13) he is preaching to, believe in.

3) In verse 16-17, he begins preaching the Gospel and the first Principle he begins with is?

FAITH - The just shall live by Faith!

So far the Gospel Paul is preaching matches both LDS (1st Prinicple Faith) and Evangelicals, Grace alone, Faith Alone.

4) Then he gets into the nob-believers and their works that lead to death and their Eternal judgments. (Thats in the Hebrews 6 verse too)

<to be continued>

Edited September 15, 2011 by Zakuska

[rameumptom]

I think we need to realize in the Church that we are not saved by works or obedience. We are saved by grace and faith in Christ. The problem is the word "saved", which has different connotations in LDS jargon.

Through Christ's atonement, resurrection is completely free. For us to escape h*** and Outer Darkness, the requirement is simple: have faith in Christ and repent. There is no other requirement to be saved from death and h*** and receive the Telestial glory/kingdom. In Romans and Galatians, Paul discusses this and explains it with the term "justification." This means that in Christ we are made guiltless or innocent of sin.

He then discusses "sanctification." This requires more of us. We must develop our faith, receive the ordinances of baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit then works within us, according to our faith, to help us continue to repent and desire to obey. You'll note that Paul establishes there really is only one commandment for Christians: love your neighbor as yourself. This, when guided by the Holy Ghost, causes us to naturally keep the commandments of God. As we become more righteous and faithful, the Holy Ghost becomes a stronger companion, and seals us to ever higher levels of grace. As with Christ, we go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93) until we receive a fullness of grace.

IOW, obedience is the effect of faith, and not the other way around. We are not saved by our works, as Christ alone saves us. We see that in Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees, who kept many commandments, but did so without the appropriate faith in Christ. We are justified or made guiltless by the atonement.

We can then be sanctified to ever higher levels of grace and holiness by the Holy Ghost. From that sanctification comes the determination of the Other salvation given in LDS terminology: a level of heaven. A fullness of salvation would therefore to be exalted. This does not come about by counting the number of commandments we keep or the number of people we home teach, but by what we have Become through sanctification.

[jo1952]

An excellent thread! More, please!!!!

Best regards,

jo

[Maidservant]

I have always thought that Paul makes it very clear about the reality of faith, and that his choice OF the term 'faith' was precisely it's connotation of action and living, so that it could not be confused otherwise. Again: the choice OF the term 'faith', with its active CONNOTATION is MEANT to be an innoculation against a religious pathway that might wish to remove ordinances and active living.

However, having said that, I think we overdo the "grace alone" criticism against other Christian sects. Just as they exaggerate our 'saved by works' (which is not really the case), we exaggerate their 'grace alone' (which is also not really the case). I'm not sure that it's helpful to make this caricatures either way.

But in any case, studying Paul is ALWAYS helpful, and yes, Hebrews and other places Paul writes are very plain and VERY Mormon (to use an anachronistic term). I read Hebrews to my children, and they commented to me, How can anyone read Hebrews and not know they need the Priesthood?

Also Galations as a proof text is also less than convincing to me, since if you actually read the entire story of Galations, you can see that Paul is calling Peter out on the carpet for some of Peter's behavior. It's rather hilarious, actually. Paul implying that Peter is accursed? Surely he couldn't mean that! Ha ha ha. (Gets a whiff of testosterone, he he .) Anyway, Paul is NOT commenting on entire churches and belief systems, he is just telling Peter, you have made a mistake.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Many Christian Ministries out there pick apart the 3rd and 4th articles of faith and claim they are comparing them to the Bible by cherry picking a bunch of out of context Bible quotes to try and contradict what the articles of Faith state. They all inevitably end up with the same conclusion that the "LDS Gospel" (if there is such a thing Because there really only is one Gospel, The Gospel of Jesus Christ) is contra the made up Gospel of Grace alone Faith Alone Salvation and the Bible.

Try this search to see what I mean:

http://www.google.co...-Address&ie==

One of those who claim this is our good ex-LDS friend Shawn McCraney of Channel 20 TV fame.

So now lets look at the Articles of Faith:

The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

...

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:

first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;

second, Repentance;

third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;

fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

One of the favorite Scirptures Evangelicals like to quote at this point to try and prove that Mormons teach "another Gospel", and we've all had this quoted at us ad nausium, is...

Gal 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Apostle John says something very similar to Paul right here:

2 John 1

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In not so many words he is saying more or less the same thing as Paul. That not abiding in the "doctrine of Christ" is transgression and those who do this are accursed because they have not the father or the son. These are my two witnesses I'm calling upon to be our judge.

The Antinomian, Grace Alone Faith Alone crowd, tell us that the Gospel is nothing more than "Christ Crucified" not Baptism or anything else is needed or can be added to this "Finished Work".

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

So what I propose is we examine the Gospel Paul preached to the Romans to see who exactly is preaching the Gospel of Paul and Jesus Christ, and who is teaching the "Accursed Other Gospel".

You would think that it would be enough to convince the Evangelical crowd that the first pinciples of the Gospel are Faith, Repetance, Baptisms (Water & Holy Ghost by laying on of hands) when the Author of Hebrews reminds his students that they aren't very bright, hard of hearing and need to be reminded what the Mama's milk of the Gospel is:

Heb 5

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Here we have the 'doctrine of Christ' (aka the Gospel) consisely layed out for us so even a 5th grader could understand.This is the "doctrine of Christ" that John was speaking of that we need to abide in to have "the father and the son".

But I digress... lets move on to the Gospel of the Apostle Paul presented to the Romans by Paul.

Starting with Chapter one... I'll add my coments as we go along and the important things I'll mark out in red.

<to be continued>

Of course they have distanced themselves from Hebrews. Since they no longer attribute it to Paul…Romans rules!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

If you will please notice:

1) He speaks of the ressurection of Jesus Christ

2) A couple times he commends his hearers for their Faith in Jesus Christ and his ressurection, in verse 12 he affirms that his Gospel he preached and the Faith he beleives in in the Same the Roman Gentiles (v13) he is preaching to, believe in.

3) In verse 16-17, he begins preaching the Gospel and the first Principle he begins with is?

FAITH - The just shall live by Faith!

So far the Gospel Paul is preaching matches both LDS (1st Prinicple Faith) and Evangelicals, Grace alone, Faith Alone.

4) Then he gets into the nob-believers and their works that lead to death and their Eternal judgments. (Thats in the Hebrews 6 verse too)

<to be continued>

Oh you included Romans. "Seeing they see not".

[Zakuska]

Oh you included Romans. "Seeing they see not".

Amen Papa.

[Zakuska]

So lets continue on to the next chapter and see what the next principle of the Gospel Paul teaches... is...

Romans 2

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

The most important verse in the chapter is verse 4. In the previous Chapter Paul has taught the 1st Principle of the Gospel. FAITH.

Now in verse 4 he Teaches the Second principle. REPENTANCE. Right on Que!

Verse 1-11 He still is speaking about eternal judgment and both believer and non-believer being judged by their works.

Verse 12-15 Doing the Law and justification.

verse 16 he reaffirms that Judgment is a part of the Gospel he preaches.

<to be continued>

Edited September 15, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

I think we need to realize in the Church that we are not saved by works or obedience. We are saved by grace and faith in Christ. The problem is the word "saved", which has different connotations in LDS jargon.

Through Christ's atonement, resurrection is completely free. For us to escape h*** and Outer Darkness, the requirement is simple: have faith in Christ and repent. There is no other requirement to be saved from death and h*** and receive the Telestial glory/kingdom. In Romans and Galatians, Paul discusses this and explains it with the term "justification." This means that in Christ we are made guiltless or innocent of sin.

He then discusses "sanctification." This requires more of us. We must develop our faith, receive the ordinances of baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit then works within us, according to our faith, to help us continue to repent and desire to obey. You'll note that Paul establishes there really is only one commandment for Christians: love your neighbor as yourself. This, when guided by the Holy Ghost, causes us to naturally keep the commandments of God. As we become more righteous and faithful, the Holy Ghost becomes a stronger companion, and seals us to ever higher levels of grace. As with Christ, we go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93) until we receive a fullness of grace.

IOW, obedience is the effect of faith, and not the other way around. We are not saved by our works, as Christ alone saves us. We see that in Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees, who kept many commandments, but did so without the appropriate faith in Christ. We are justified or made guiltless by the atonement.

We can then be sanctified to ever higher levels of grace and holiness by the Holy Ghost. From that sanctification comes the determination of the Other salvation given in LDS terminology: a level of heaven. A fullness of salvation would therefore to be exalted. This does not come about by counting the number of commandments we keep or the number of people we home teach, but by what we have Become through sanctification.

I agree with everything you said but I have an issue with this one.

How can obedience "follow" faith?

I mean I agree that it is very apparent after you have faith and accompanies faith at all times. But, the scriptures tell us that having faith is infact obedience to a commandment of God.

1 John 3

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We are actually commanded to have Faith in Jesus so there is no way of getting around the clear implications of this verse.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Time for our next installment.

Romans 3

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In this chapter he concludes everyone under sin even Believers such as Isaiah and himself, and so everyone needs a Savior and a need for repentance.

He also contrasts Beleif and unbeleif again and touchs on Faith as well as the established law.

Verse 8 - He puts an end to the slander that by teaching grace, some unnamed others were saying he was teaching Antinomianism.

<to be continued>

[Zakuska]

Now Paul realy drives the second principle of Repentance home...

Romans 4

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Now this Chapter is kind of important and he makes some very important points.

The first, he drives home REPENTANCE big time. This is covered in verse 6,7,8.

Click here: http://lds.org/scrip.../ps/32?lang=eng

And read the entire Psalm in context. Im sure you will see who the "ungodly" are that David is speaking about. They are those who recognize, confess and repent (an Action) of their sins wether they are Jew or Gentile.

So to summarize we have Paul teaching the first two principles of the LDS Gospel.

1) FAITH

2) REPENTANCE

He has diverged from my understanding of the Evangelical Doctrine at this point of "grace alone" because now he has just added a work to the grace of God. One must repent and confess their sins to God to be saved.

The second point... What the Faith of Abraham consisted of.

God had promised Abraham that if he would leave the Chaldeans and trapse off into the desert not knowing where he went that he would make Abraham the father of many nations. According to Heb 11 Abraham Heard and obeyed. And here again the example Paul uses is Abraham impregnating his wife even though they both were well past fruit bearing age. See Abraham had to believe and then follow through with his end of the deal to be declared righteous. The beleif and the work were not seperated, They went hand in hand. He's not declared righteous for another 2 chapters until he reaches his destination and speaks to the Lord agian.

<more forthcoming>

Edited September 19, 2011 by Zakuska

[Vance]

Click here:http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/32?lang=eng

Your linkie no workie.

[Zakuska]

Your linkie no workie.

All fixie.

[Calm]

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/4?lang=eng

http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/32?lang=eng

[Calm]

All fixie.

nope, needs a spacer

[Zakuska]

Moving right along... to the 3rd Principle.

Romans 5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This Chapter starts out real good, because we immediatley fall into the 3rd Principle.

He starts out be reiterating grace and faith. v1,2

v3,4 seems to be getting into works and fruits of a believer and enduring through tribulations.

But at this point we haven't quite been saved yet. For you see. We don't get born again by the Baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit until verse 5. When the Holy Ghost is poured into our very being, our heart.

Then he gets into the free gift and such. But remember we've already brought forth fruits meet for repentance prior to the Holy Ghost coming into our heart in the previous chapter. Which throws the whole "Grace Alone" system into a tail spin.

Verse 9 seems to speak of our future salvation from the wrath and judgment of God come Armagedon.

He contrasts the two Adams here and Christ undoing the "Original sin" of the father of the Family. This is the free Gift, redemption from the original sin.

So thats the 1st three principles Paul has taught to the Romans.

1) FAITH

2) REPENTANCE

3) HOLY GHOST

The 4th is next.

<to be continued>

Edited September 20, 2011 by Zakuska

[coolrok7]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

What you quoted above Zak is not the Gospel but an explanation in Biblical Scripture by the apostle Paul in which he explains how one is saved which is by grace (our Justification accomplished by Jesus, not us) through faith, not of works.

Those that believe, after hearing the message of the Gospel, respond in faith in which the resultant “good works” follow as a fruit of having faith (accomplished in our Sanctification which is being set apart for works of service):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

The Christian faith is in Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah, Son of God in the flesh:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:1-3, 14-17)

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22)

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: (Romans 1:3-5)

Belief in Jesus Christ, the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross for our salvation is the Biblical teaching:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

[Zakuska]

What you quoted above Zak is not the Gospel but an explanation in Biblical Scripture by the apostle Paul in which he explains how one is saved which is by grace (our Justification accomplished by Jesus, not us) through faith, not of works.

Those that believe, after hearing the message of the Gospel, respond in faith in which the resultant “good works” follow as a fruit of having faith (accomplished in our Sanctification which is being set apart for works of service):

The Christian faith is in Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah, Son of God in the flesh:

Belief in Jesus Christ, the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross for our salvation is the Biblical teaching:

Thank you for a more detailed explanation Coolrok. Now we have more to compare. However... ( You knew that was coiming <grin> ) I have to disagree. Because Paul says this...

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

He flat out says he's preaching the Gospel of Christ and then goes into the first 4 principles of it. The same first 4 principles LDS teach and Evangelicals pick apart and make fun of.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Zakuska

[BCSpace]

The Apostle John says something very similar to Paul right here:

2 John 1

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In not so many words he is saying more or less the same thing as Paul. That not abiding in the "doctrine of Christ" is transgression and those who do this are accursed because they have not the father or the son. These are my two witnesses I'm calling upon to be our judge.

Yes. And the gospel of Christ says that works are required for salvation. Matthew 25:32-46

[coolrok7]

Zak, I only had just began laying the groundwork in response to what you had stated. You were wrong which is why I responded.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

I'll proceed as time allows to answer your being wrong in what the Gospel actually is.

[Zakuska]

I anxiously await your response.

In the meantime lets continue with the next Principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Water Baptism.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This chapter is good becasue we have already had the first baptism and rebirth of the Holy Ghost in the Last Chapter into our heart. In this Chapter Paul gets into the "new creature" "Born again" Imagery that accompanies water Baptism.

The symbolism of the Water baptism is likened unto the death and ressurection of Christ and being "planted" in him. Plants take water (Waters of Baptism by emersion), soil and Sunlight (the spirit).

Part of Pauls Imagery here...

1 Corinthians 3:6

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Apollos was a Jewish man who converted who mightly taught the water baptism of John and converted many.

BD: Apollos

Apollos. An Alexandrian Jew, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures (Acts 18:24–19:1). He received instruction in the gospel at Ephesus from Aquila and Priscilla and then went to Corinth; his name was afterwards connected with one of the disputes that arose there (1 Cor. 1:12; 3:4–6, 22; 16:12). We afterwards hear of him in Crete (Titus 3:13).

He speaks about obedience to our new Lord and Savior and following his commandments and "not sinning any more", even though we are under grace.

We must "serve righteouness", "Serve God" and be frutiful unto holiness and everlasting Life. We must be obedient, even though we are under grace.

This one is also the first time "ever lasting Life has been" mentioned in the discourse so far. This all comes after...

Faith, Repentance, Baptism in the Holy Ghost (Born Again), and Baptism by Water. (Planted)

I don't know about you all but I'm just not seeing this "Grace Alone, Faith Alone" Gospel Evangelicals keep raving about!

I only see the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and its principles as taught in HIS church. Both at the Time of John, and the Time of Paul, and the Time of the Restorer, Joseph Smith!

Edited September 20, 2011 by Zakuska

[Vance]

I don't know about you all but I'm just not seeing this "Grace Alone, Faith Alone" Gospel Evangelicals keep raving about!

That's because it isn't in there.

Who knew?

[Zakuska]

That's because it isn't in there.

Who knew?

Romans 5

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This verse alone causes prolbems for "Grace Alone" AND "Faith Alone".

You can't access grace without having faith. There by... Grace nor Faith are alone.

[jo1952]

I anxiously await your response.

In the meantime lets continue with the next Principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Water Baptism.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This chapter is good becasue we have already had the first baptism and rebirth of the Holy Ghost in the Last Chapter into our heart. In this Chapter Paul gets into the "new creature" "Born again" Imagery that accompanies water Baptism.

The symbolism of the Water baptism is likened unto the death and ressurection of Christ and being "planted" in him. Plants take water (Waters of Baptism by emersion), soil and Sunlight (the spirit).

Part of Pauls Imagery here...

1 Corinthians 3:6

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Apollos was a Jewish man who converted who mightly taught the water baptism of John and converted many.

He speaks about obedience to our new Lord and Savior and following his commandments and "not sinning any more", even though we are under grace.

We must "serve righteouness", "Serve God" and be frutiful unto holiness and everlasting Life. We must be obedient, even though we are under grace.

This one is also the first time "ever lasting Life has been" mentioned in the discourse so far. This all comes after...

Faith, Repentance, Baptism in the Holy Ghost (Born Again), and Baptism by Water. (Planted)

I don't know about you all but I'm just not seeing this "Grace Alone, Faith Alone" Gospel Evangelicals keep raving about!

I only see the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and its principles as taught in HIS church. Both at the Time of John, and the Time of Paul, and the Time of the Restorer, Joseph Smith!

I would like to add that Apollos had not yet received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. I think this is one of the aspects surrounding Apollos which seemed to amaze other members of the church. They wanted his accomplishments to be known by the leaders of the church.

Keep going; I'm thoroughly enjoying your thread!

Regards,

jo