The Gospel According To The Apostle Paul

[Zakuska]

This Chapter gets real intresting when it comes to Protestant Theology... Of Faith Alone.

Romans 7

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Verse 1-6 Paul makes the analogy that we are bound to the Law for life. But, that Christ divorced us from the Law and Married us to him. So that we may serve Christ, live by the Spirit, as new creatures. Which also indicates that we are his for the rest of our life and bound to serve him and keep his commandments.

Verse 8 - Without the Law Sin was dead. Another way of saying that Sin is not imputed when there is no law. A common theme he used earlier Rom. 4:8; 5:13. (James agrees: 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.)

The rest of the Chapter is Pauls Classic war of the Natural Man against the New Spritual creation of God. But notice he keeps the 10 commandments in his mind and wants to fulfill them but this Natural man keeps trying to take over and make him forget the law.

[coolrok7]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

The above is what I was answering.

Regarding Coolrok (a Lutheran Christian, and as I have stated to him in the past) his Doctines are regarded as Hetrodox (Chrisitian but with Heresy mixed in just as Mormonism is seen as Hetrodox by Lutheran Clergy). Catholics/Orthodox and a # of Evangelical Churches put Protestant Reformer Martin Luther/Lutheranism into the satanic/non christian.stay away from its Theology/Doctrines camp. There are numerous works on the evils/errors of Martin Luther/Lutheranism that are presented to his front/back/side door, windows but are ignored as he presents his(Form/Model) of the Christian Faith when he attacks/criticises ours (LDS). Anyone else agree/see this as well ?. May True Grace Be with you all.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I don’t have any obligation to any of those mentioned personally except to God and His word to me in Scripture. I am responsible to speak the truth in love to anyone who engages in dialogue with me though.

I’ve answered your charges before which to me are irrelevant to the point I’m making (in the context of what I actually believe not what others say and have nothing to do with me personally except that your making it an issue here).

The point I’m making here is the Biblical Gospel Tanyan/Anakin7 which I just demonstrated before your statement above.

The apostle Paul uses the term “heresies” in this Biblical Context:

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:18-19)

Not that of Mormonism (which didn’t exist at the time and is in contradiction now of the biblical Gospel or Good News):

Heresy, See APOSTASY, DOCTRINE, ORTHODOXY, TRUTH. In the true gospel sense, any opinion or doctrine in opposition to the revealed word of the Lord as recorded in the standard works of the Church as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an heresy. The issue is not how many people believe a teaching; it is whether the doctrine is true or false (2 Peter 2:1). . .There is no salvation in a false doctrine. ( Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, p.352)

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obeyto qualify for exaltation—We must . . . (Gospel Principlesmanual, 1985, p.291)

A Christian (still a sinner) is one who has accepted and believes the Gospel in which the forgiveness of sin is granted to those of faith in Jesus as the only savior of all mankind in Him as, “the way the truth and the life” (which produces the good works manifested in a believers life naturally). Justified and cleansed by the blood of Jesus in His righteousness not of our own but right with God:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. . . .What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works’ he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, . . . (Romans 3:23-28; 4:1-5)

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (Hebrews 2:14-18)

Which Mormonism makes a mockery:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

This is the biblical teaching concerning the above:

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:8-17)

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wraththrough him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Back in the Millet/Johnson meetings at Mariners a few years ago where we first met in person:

Tanyan, it was at the meeting at Mariners recently where I finally got to meet you personally, not just a name on a screen. This was after the initial meeting with Greg Johnson/Bob Millet and their traveling Evangelical/Mormon dialogue (which I didn’t get to attend but saw the DVD, although I had attended an earlier one at the Stake building in Anaheim Hills several years ago).

From ZLMB

coolrok7 and Tanyan meet.

Last night at Mariners Church in Irvine Ca. there was an Evangelical/LDS Discussion group that met at Mariners Church. There were 6 in attendance [2 moderators, Charlotte Pardee of EXMFJ and her Husband, coolrok7, and 1 LDS/Mormon - ME !-OUCH]. Is was a positive experience for everone involved. Looking forward to the next one next week [As far as I know I will be able to attend] Just a shout out to coolrok7 thanks again for carrying that bag for me !. For some stange reason everyone there thought that I was a somewhat different LDS than they had ever met in the past. Anyway may Grace Rain on all this day. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNiGHT.

It was in the follow-up meetings where Mormons were invited to participate if they wanted to, in which you showed up (a small group setting). It was determined by those listening to you (myself included), based on what you were saying, that you don’t accurately reflect the Mormon view of God, although you do consider yourself to be “Mormon” in belief (unless I’ve misunderstood you).

Thinking back on the underlined point above, I would modify it to read this way as when I first heard you talking to others before I knew who you were.

talking about God in the terminology you were using was more Evangelical in usage than Mormon as I was listening to what you were saying to others in conversation

Not once in any conversation with any Mormon have they volunteered to tell me on their own that Jesus died for my sin and that His blood cleanses me from all my sin, past, present, future (which is not a license to sin). It has always been the emphasis on being in the “only true church”.

[Zakuska]

Hey Coolrok... Do you agree with Martin Luther?

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther

Not once in any conversation with any Mormon have they volunteered to tell me on their own that Jesus died for my sin and that His blood cleanses me from all my sin, past, present, future (which is not a license to sin). It has always been the emphasis on being in the “only true church”.

Where does this idea of Christ dieing for our sins past present and future com from?

Romans 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[altersteve]

coolrok7,

Why are you citing Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine as a source of official Mormon doctrine? Despite its name, it should not be used as one. Please consider using a more official, reliable source, such as the scriptures or the official declarations of the First Presidency.

[altersteve]

Also, regarding the faith vs. works issue, let me ask a question. How can you truly have faith in Christ if you don't keep His commandments? Answer: you can't. That's the reason why Latter-day Saints place an emphasis on doing good works. Because if you don't do good works, keep the commandments, etc., then your faith is dead and useless, just as James taught.

Now, our critics would agree with that, I'm sure, but the problem is that they don't believe that the commandments we keep are the commandments of Christ, but merely the teachings of Joseph Smith, who, according to them, was a fraud and a liar. So, as do all "issues" regarding Mormonism, it comes down to whether Joseph was a prophet or not, and the answer to that question can be found by learning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Funny how that works.

Edited September 24, 2011 by altersteve

[Franktalk]

On faith and works

When we come to God and believe and repent we are given a new heart. This new heart changes us as a person, it manifest as changes in behavior. We follow rules written on our heart. It is not work to us but the proper way to live our life. It is treating others as we would like to be treated. It is seeing the world through spiritual eyes instead of worldly eyes. Each step we take and each thing we say moves us down a path. We either move down the path that God has for us or we go down some other path.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

and

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

[jo1952]

Hey Coolrok... Do you agree with Martin Luther?

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther

Where does this idea of Christ dieing for our sins past present and future com from?

Romans 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This is a concept I have run into on other boards. The idea is that baptism takes cares of all sins--past, present and future. The continuing "repentance" preached and encouraged by the Apostles to members of the church is not the definition of repentance which the LDS use. It is thought more of as a tool for fellowship (????...I am only telling you what I was told; I think they must mean that it is a way for making amends between one another??). Further, by using their definition of the term, the LDS effectively wind up crucifying Christ every time we ask for forgiveness of new sins, since we are not manifesting true faith in the power of the Atonement.

Regards,

jo

Edited September 24, 2011 by jo1952

[Franktalk]

i went to a mormon church for about 4 months and took the classes there to see what it was like and had missionaries come over like every other day.. and was taught that mormons believe they are meriting their salvation and that they were their own saviors and that it was evil to trust in christ alone for salvation. I recall one of them quoting Hinckley where he states that it is a most evil and pernicious doctrine to trust in christ alone as savior so i am just going by what i learned at that church.

I became a member in March of this year. Since that time I have found many more connections between the Bible and the BoM. I have taught a class in the High Priesthood and will do another in a week. How different our two experiences have been.

If I reject Christ does this effect my salvation? If so then it is not just Christ alone that determines my salvation.

[Anakin7]

Just read coolrok's last post. In conversation with a # of Lutheran Priests/members it is my understanding that The Lutheran Church/Members consider True LDS Doctrines/Teachings/Members Hetrodox [Christian but with problems]. I can accept this however Protestant Reformer Martin Luther and Lutheranism are also put in the Hetrodox camp [And some would flat out state that Martin Luther was a False Prophet, a person who's teachings were not biblical and false and should be avoided], along with Lutheranism/Lutherans having another God/Jesus/Gospel. Roman Catholicism/ The 7 Branches of Orthodox Church and a # of Protestant denominations are at coolroks front/back/side door, window, mailbox, e-mail to show him the problems with his church/faith that he is in [Lutheranism]. Contend for the faith, to every man an answer. coolrok just pounds at our front doors [metaphore] to show us the supposed error of The LDS Faith/Church.

Been reading some of protestant reformer daddy of lutheranism Martin Luther, he had some awesome stuff, but also some terrible stuff as well. Yes Jesus Christ atoning blood sacrifice saved/saves me on conditions of True Grace and True Faith on his Holy name. History and Context in coolroks references would be of value. May True Grace and True faith be in your heart and mind. " Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation: for faith gives life. [Martin Luther].

In His Debt/ Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited September 26, 2011 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Just read coolrok's last post. In conversation with a # of Lutheran Priests/members it is my understanding that The Lutheran Church/Members consider True LDS Doctrines/Teachings/Members Hetrodox [Christian but with problems]. I can accept this however Protestant Reformer Martin Luther and Lutheranism are also put in the Hetrodox camp [And some would flat out state that Martin Luther was a False Prophet, a person who's teachings were not biblical and false and should be avoided], along with Lutheranism/Lutherans having another God/Jesus/Gospel. . . .Yes Jesus Christ atoning blood sacrifice saved/saves me on conditions of True Grace and True Faith on his Holy name. History and Context in coolroks references would be of value. . . .

In His Debt/ Grace

Anakin7

From the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) website concerning other denominations:

Mormon Church

Q: Are Mormons generally regarded as Christians, and how do their beliefs differ from those of the Missouri Synod?

A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a Christian church. That is because the official writings of Mormonism deny fundamental teachings of orthodox Christianity. . . .For more information about beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints read this document prepared by the Commission on Theology and Church Relations.

Again and again Anakin7, we’ve been over this. You’re entitled to your views on the subject in which I would agree with you on some things and disagree big time on others (where we disagree is critical though, Biblical vs. heretical, not just heterodox teaching).

Any doctrine considered “true” by Mormonism that is already a part of the Bible I have no problem with. It’s the claimed “Truth” received through the so-called “restoration” that I have a Biblical problem with:

Joseph Smith’s First Vision

The second cornerstone is the First Vision of the prophet Joseph Smith. . . .This transcendent experience opened the marvelous work of restoration. It lifted the curtain on the long-promised dispensation of the fullness of times. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, February 2004, p.5)

The Restitution of All Things

In the accomplishment of this promised marvelous work and a wonder, the Lord had in mind a “restitution of all things” and moved upon Peter to so prophesy to those who had crucified Him:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21.). . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Elder LeGrand Richards, p.34)

. . .this is the pivotal thing of our story. Every claim we make concerning divine authority, every truth that we offer concerning the validity of this work, all finds its roots in the First Vision of the boy prophet. Without it we would not have anything much to say. . .This becomes the hinge pin on which the whole cause turns. If the First Vision was true, if it actually happened, then the Book of Mormon is true. Then we have the priesthood. Then we have the Church organizations and all of the other keys and blessings of authority which we say we have. If the First Vision did not occur, then we are involved in a great sham. It is that simple. (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.237)

THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH

CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition)

The, “long-promised dispensation of the fullness of times” was about the coming of Jesus into the world as the Savior, not Joseph Smith the, “boy prophet”:

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (Galatians 4:1-5)

It is predicated on there being a “complete” “total” apostasy, a false teaching (through the agency of lying/deceitful spirits I believe):

3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58).

Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. In him and in him alone is there redemption. But he works in his own way. God’s way is not man’s way. The Lord provided that salvation should come through his gospel functioning through his church, wherein are prophets and apostles “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.” (Ephesians 4:12). . .Is there such a church upon the earth? Until 1830 there was not. It had been lost through the falling away we have described in this pamphlet. (Which Church is Right pamphlet, p.17)

In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, . . .(from the EXPLANATORY INTRODUCTION p.iii of the D&C copyright 1973 edition by HAROLD B. LEE)

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.. . .For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . .They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1, 5-6)

That is not what the Holy Spirit says according to Paul (note that the “Spirit explicitly says that “some will fall away from the faith” due to “deceitful spirits”):

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6)

[altersteve]

Coolrok7, quoting a few Bible verses isn't going to convince anyone. We believe that the Bible is completely consistent with LDS doctrine, so no amount of Bible "proof texts" is going to work. You're going to have to better than that.

[coolrok7]

The point of the thread (The Gospel According To The Apostle Paul) in which you made this comment Zak, “Correct me if Im wrong”:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

This is their Gospel. (Correct me If Im wrong)

No, this is the Gospel that Paul preached, in which I believe in for my salvation and which is my faith (Mormonism has a false “Gospel” and is not a restoration which takes place as a result of the Second Coming of Jesus- Acts 3):

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21.)

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:8-11)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. . . .Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:20-25, 51-52)

I’m correcting your wrong point using the words of Scripture. What you quoted is not the Gospel itself but a brief explanation concerning how one is saved which is by believing the Gospel which excludes any boasting of the individual as if they did it their self.

The fuller context of what you provided (this is not at all in contradiction with James’ statement, “faith without works is dead” in which I would agree):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

What Joseph Smith did and his Mormonism does was redefine Biblical terms by inserting a phrase into the plagiarized Ephesians verse and ignoring what is clearly stated concerning Salvation, which is “not of works”:

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Salvation from an eternal/everlasting punishment is a gift of God, by grace through faith, not of works, and that it is ordained that we should walk in them (good works are a fruit or testimony of having faith that enables one to be saved but are not the Gospel in the sense of the cause of our being saved).

Looking to Jesus in that He is the author and finisher of our faith:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

Here is an example of the apostle Paul putting into practice his teaching. The Phillipian jailer was about to kill himself fearing the prisoners had escaped which would have cost him his life, being put in charge of them in prison:

Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, “These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city; and they teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe.” Then the multitude rose up together against them; and the magistrates tore off their clothes and commanded them to be beaten with rods. And when they had laid many stripes on them, they threw them into prison, commanding the jailer to keep them securely. Having received such a charge, he put them into the inner prison and fastened their feet in the stocks.

But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. (Acts 16:16-31)

The veil in the Jerusalem Temple at the entrance to the Holy of Holies within the Temple structure was torn in two during the earthquake at the death of Jesus:

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54)

The Temple had fulfilled its purpose. Jesus prophesied concerning the future of the Temple structure (fulfilled by Titus, the Roman General, in 70 A.D.):

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” (Matthew 24:1-2)

The two means of grace (Sacraments) are first baptism and then communion (the bread and the wine). Baptism being a onetime event while communion is repetitive as in, “For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

In light of the questions asked, communion is how one maintains ones standing before God (during the Passover Seder, 4 times wine was partaken of, each with a specific meaning attached. There is also the eating of the unleavened bread during the meal as well):

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ‘Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, ‘this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

Regarding the above, the following preceded what it actually meant, just before He was crucified on the cross:

I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, this is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit,and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:48-65)

[altersteve]

Once again, coolrok, quoting a few out of context Bible verses and underlining a few out of context phrases in those verses is not going to work. You're going to have to tell us how these passages support your view, because I see nothing in any of the scriptures that you've posted that supports what you're saying about Mormonism having a "false gospel." Remember, we do not disagree with anything the Bible says, we only disagree with your interpretation of it.

Edited September 30, 2011 by altersteve

[altersteve]

Salvation from an eternal/everlasting punishment is a gift of God, by grace through faith, not of works, and that it is ordained that we should walk in them (good works are a fruit or testimony of having faith that enables one to be saved but are not the Gospel in the sense of the cause of our being saved).

Looking to Jesus in that He is the author and finisher of our faith:

Looks like you're in agreement with what the Church teaches about this. That's fantastic.

[Franktalk]

Once again, coolrok, quoting a few out of context Bible verses and underlining a few out of context phrases in those verses is not going to work. You're going to have to tell us how these passages support your view, because I see nothing in any of the scriptures that you've posted that supports what you're saying about Mormonism having a "false gospel." Remember, we do not disagree with anything the Bible says, we only disagree with your interpretation of it.

I read his post as well and could not see a logical argument at all. I think it is pretty simple works follow faith, they are the outward behavior that manifest due to a new heart. This simple view explains all of scripture without having to twist anything.

[Anakin7]

Just read coolrok's last reply to me. It is interesting that a # Lutherans [Clergy/Members] I have asked if they viewed LDS as Christian/Hetrodox [ Christian but with problems], /non Christian. The replies were Hetrodox. Coolroks Prophet/Protestant Reformer Martin Luther/Lutheranism is regarded by many as evil/non christian/non Biblical as should be avoided. We [ LDS ] believe one is Saved by Grace Alone Throught Faith Alone as long as you have a correct/true understanding of that true salvation/sorteriological form/model.He as with others misquotes 2 Nephi 25:23 as concerning true salvation in true LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run. Works are nessesary for Salvation but they do not cause Salvation for Faith gives Life.True Grace [charis] is accessed/activated by True Faith [pistis]. We do not work to save ourselves but work to show that we want to be and stay Saved by way of Jesus Christ AWESOME Atoneing Blood sacrifice for us. Work we must but the Lunch is free.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

I wonder if coolrok truly understands the "Biblical" cultural Definitions of "Grace" and "Faith" as used in his scripture [bible] ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT