Did God Want Adam And Eve To Follow Satan In The Garden?

[orion88]

I was looking at http://mormon.org/plan-of-happiness/. The section Adam and

Eve Gave Us the Gift of Choice says, "Lasting happiness and progression come

from choosing to do what God wants us to do."

Did God want Adam and Eve to choose to follow Satan in order to progress?

Did the spirits in the pre-earth life also follow Satan in their limited progression

there before coming to earth?

[CV75]

I was looking at http://mormon.org/plan-of-happiness/. The section Adam and

Eve Gave Us the Gift of Choice says, "Lasting happiness and progression come

from choosing to do what God wants us to do."

Did God want Adam and Eve to choose to follow Satan in order to progress?

Did the spirits in the pre-earth life also follow Satan in their limited progression

there before coming to earth?

Yes, spirits followed Satan in the pre-mortal sphere (Abraham 3:28). It does not explicitly say in this passage whether this is or isn’t what God wanted, because that isn’t the message. Verses 22-27 emphasize God’s purpose and priority is for His children to exercise agency with clear consequences to follow (verse 26). Later, the expectation for obedience is more clearly articulated (4:31), but this obedience is framed in terms of following the Lord’s commandments (5:12, 13; Moses 2:28) rather than any special command to not follow Satan. The selections from the Book of Moses support these ideas.

Moses 4:1-4 shows the idea that the Lord’s purpose is to give man his agency and for him to advance as a result of hearkening to His voice. Whatever man does in relation to hearing the Lord’s voice will either enhance or destroy this agency. The Lord clearly does not want his children to misuse the agency He gave them. Following Satan is only a symptom of misusing agency, and so no specific mention of His not wanting His children to follow Satan is made.

This may be why Satan did not see the plan of salvation, as introduced in the Garden of Eden, coming (Moses 4:6). He could only see that God commanded obedience but still allowed spirits to disobey Him, and Satan perceived this to be his advantage.

In my opinion, it is more important to God that we obey Him than that we not follow Satan; they are not the same thing, and the first is the only sure way to preserve agency.

Edited September 11, 2011 by CV75

[altersteve]

First off, Adam and Eve did not "follow Satan." Satan deceived Eve, but she didn't know better since she didn't know the difference between good and evil. Knowing this difference is essential to our happiness. We can't progress or know true happiness — the fullness of joy that we are here to receive — unless we first know what pain, failure, and sadness feel like. Satan was trying to foil God's plans, but it was the other way around: God foiled Satan's plans. And He tends to do that a lot. He did the same thing with 9/11.

As for your other question, none of the spirits in the pre-existence who followed Satan will ever come to earth. They lost that privilege. All of the people who have been, are, and will be born on earth chose to follow Christ.

Edited September 11, 2011 by altersteve

[BCSpace]

Did God want Adam and Eve to choose to follow Satan in order to progress?

I think it might be more accurate to say that Satan himself was following God's plan and so to that extent, so were Adam and Eve by partaking the fruit. But Satan's plan diverges from then on, such as the lie that they would not die, and so no, Adam and Eve were not following Satan nor did God want them to. Adam and Eve recognized the truth in what Satan said and the source of such truth is God. They did not follow Satan when his plan diverged dfrom God's.

Did the spirits in the pre-earth life also follow Satan in their limited progression

there before coming to earth?

When he was in a state of rebellion? No, though something similar as per the above could have happened in the premortal life.

[orion88]

Are there other examples in LDS theology where God wants disobedience to help

his sons and daughters progress?

[mfbukowski]

Are there other examples in LDS theology where God wants disobedience to help

his sons and daughters progress?

He doesn't "want disobedience"

He allows choice.

Big difference.

[wenglund]

Did God want Adam and Eve to choose to follow Satan in order to progress?

In some ways this is like asking if God wanted his only begotten Son to suffer the inhuman agony on the cross and die?

To me, in either case (Adam/Eve and Christ), God desired the outcome resulting from both actions, while not particularly wanting his children to have to do what it took to achieve the outcome. It is a dillema that many parents face with their beloved children. Does that make sense?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 11, 2011 by wenglund

[orion88]

In some ways this is like asking if God wanted his only begotten Son to suffer the inhuman agony on the cross and die?

I would say yes, because that was the way of the atonement, unless he wanted to remove

pain from the equation.

To me, in either case (Adam/Eve and Christ), God desired the outcome resulting from both actions, while not particularly wanting his children to have to do what it took to achieve the outcome. It is a dillema that many parents face with their beloved children. Does that make sense?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, thanks. I see Christ glorifying God in his obedience to go to the

cross whereas Adam and Eve did not glorify God with their disobedience.

[orion88]

He doesn't "want disobedience"

He allows choice.

Big difference.

When Adam and Eve choose to follow the temptation of Satan, was their choice in

accordance to God's permissive will or His desired will for them?

[orion88]

He doesn't "want disobedience"

He allows choice.

Big difference.

When Adam and Eve chose to follow the temptation of Satan, was their choice in

accordance to God's permissive will or His desired will for them?

Edited September 11, 2011 by orion88

[mfbukowski]

When Adam and Eve chose to follow the temptation of Satan, was their choice in

accordance to God's permissive will or His desired will for them?

Read it for yourself.

2 Nephi 2

19 And after Adam and Eve had ^apartaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of ^bEden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the ^afamily of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of ^amen were prolonged, according to the ^bwill of God, that they might ^crepent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of ^dprobation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were ^elost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no ^achildren; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no ^bjoy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no ^csin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who ^aknoweth all things.

25 ^aAdam ^bfell that men might be; and men ^care, that they might have ^djoy.

26 And the ^aMessiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may ^bredeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are ^credeemed from the fall they have become ^dfree forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the ^elaw at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

God in his wisdom uses even sin to accomplish his purposes. If you want to misrepresent this fact in your language, that is your business.

I am sure God wanted the plan of salvation to come about.

Edited September 12, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The fall represents the idea of choice given to us by God teaching good vs. evil.

Without choice we cannot be either praised or blamed for our actions. It isn't a question of "God wanting Adam to follow Satan"- that language is a misrepresentation of the whole idea. What IS shown by the story is that God wants us to have choice, and without it we cannot reach exaltation.

God taught us a human context which gave us choice- I believe that animals do not have choice, at least not in a human context. Their choices are determined by their instincts, we can overcome our instincts.

We are to rise above the "natural man" and "overcome the world", and that finally becomes the key to exaltation, the creation of our own worlds because we have overcome.

[Zakuska]

Are there other examples in LDS theology where God wants disobedience to help

his sons and daughters progress?

There is the story of Samson. Hebrews werent supposed to mary outside their nation because God had commanded them to keep their blood line pure. Yet Samson disobeys the commandment and the bible says...

Judges 14

1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.

2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the Lord, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

5 ¶Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

6 And the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

God wanted him too so his purposes could be fulfilled.

[wenglund]

Yes, thanks. I see Christ glorifying God in his obedience to go to the cross whereas Adam and Eve did not glorify God with their disobedience.

I agree, though I believe that it is through Adam and Eve's disobedience that mankind, in Christ, is enabled to glorify God through their obedience. I like what Paul had to say in 1 Cor. 15:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive....Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die....So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: t is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body....And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

"If you love me keep my commandments". No, God did not want A&E to disobey. He allowed them, and us, to choose.

Edited September 12, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Nofear]

Did God want Adam and Eve to choose to follow Satan in order to progress?

My personal theory is that in due time God would have removed his command to not eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, but only after Adam and Eve were sufficiently instructed and prepared to enter into the lone and dreary world. Satan sought to disrupt God's plan by prematurely introducing Eve to the fruit with deception. God, however, was not frustrated in his designs as he simply adjusted to the situation and continued to teach Adam and Eve in other ways after they left the Garden.

In short

• No, God did not want Adam and Eve to follow Satan -- not ever
• No, Satan was not doing what God wanted
• Yes, God did want Adam and Eve to progress and hence
• Yes, God did want Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil... eventually

[Zakuska]

The real question lies in the fact that God put his kids in a playpen with a loaded gun. He very easily could have kept them safe and secure by simply not putting the tree in the Garden in the first place.

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

God could have done any number of things. What he did was to preserve Agency.

[LeSellers]

My personal theory is that in due time God would have removed his command to not eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, but only after Adam and Eve were sufficiently instructed and prepared to enter into the lone and dreary world.

I have heard many people state this very thing, and usually in nearly these same words. But I can see nothing, anywhere, that gives foundation to this speculation.

God creates only perfection. Death is an imperfection. Eve's and Adam's ignorant transgression (they didn't know what "thou shalt surely die" could mean—so innocent were they that they did not recognize their nakedness) was a necessary part of the Plan of Salvation. I'm with Brigham Young: "Whenever I think of Mother Eve, I feel to shout "Glory! Hallelujah!" for her role in giving the wonderous gift of mortality to mankind." (No, not a direct quote—I can't look it up right now.)

According to Joseph Smith*, Adam spent 70 years in the Garden of Eden. How much longer would it have taken?

* In one of the early versions of JST Genesis.

Lehi

[Nofear]

I have heard many people state this very thing, and usually in nearly these same words. But I can see nothing, anywhere, that gives foundation to this speculation.

/shrug. To each his own. I personally find the theory entirely consistent with the scriptures and the temple endowment. Yet, neither do I pass it off as LDS doctrine.

If we ponder the vast plurality of worlds, both concurrent, past, and future... are we to suppose that on each planet there must be a "satan" or for each planet there must be an Adam and Eve who flagrantly disobey God for God's purposes to be furthered? I find such thoughts highly dubious.

[LeSellers]

If we ponder the vast plurality of worlds, both concurrent, past, and future... are we to suppose that on each planet there must be a "satan" or for each planet there must be an Adam and Eve who flagrantly disobey God for God's purposes to be furthered? I find such thoughts highly dubious.

CFR that their transgression was "flagrant".

Lehi

[LeSellers]

If we ponder the vast plurality of worlds, both concurrent, past, and future... are we to suppose that on each planet there must be a "satan"

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass".

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

God, however, was not frustrated in his designs as he simply adjusted to the situation and continued to teach Adam and Eve in other ways after they left the Garden.

I like it.

Definitely a good enough idea to steal!

OOPS. I mean I like your idea and I think I will incorporate this view, as one reasonable interpretation, into my lesson plan next time I need to teach this.

[Zakuska]

I like it.

Definitely a good enough idea to steal!

OOPS. I mean I like your idea and I think I will incorporate this view, as one reasonable interpretation, into my lesson plan next time I need to teach this.

Adjusted to the situation?

That implies no planning, forthought, or forknowledge.

[Nofear]

CFR that their transgression was "flagrant".

Dialectic hyperbole. The traditional view has led to some discussions about whether or not Adam and Eve's transgression constituted actual "sin". If one looks (and I won't have any actual references to specifically point at, but if one looks) there can be found some hair splitting about "transgression" and "sin".

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass".

Eat fruit, not eat fruit. At all times it was Adam and Eve's choice, just one choice was forbidden. I think eventually the forbidden choice would have flipped: You, Adam and Eve, are ready, "Thou shalt eat", leave the Garden and start humanity on this planet. But, it's still your choice.