Excessive Polygamy?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My personal view is having more than one wife is excessive. I find the one I have to be sufficient. Once in my early marriage we moved back in with my parents for a few months. It was then that my mother said that “no kitchen in the world is big enough for two women”. I thought she was prophesying so I took it to heart.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[cinepro]

Anyone interested in the Zina story should check out this thread.

Around this time, the Church actually corrected their bio of Zina on the website!

It originally read:

Zina D. H. Young, a midwife and an educator, worked closely with Eliza R. Snow in the Relief Society. In 1870 Brigham Young called Sister Young to promote silk production among the women of the Church as part of the Church’s emphasis on home industry and self-sufficiency. During her presidency the Relief Society affiliated with the United States National Council of Women and campaigned for women’s suffrage. Sister Young continued the Relief Society’s emphasis on health care, grain storage, education, and compassionate service. Widowed by her first husband, she raised two sons from that marriage, one daughter from her later marriage to Brigham Young, and four of Brigham Young’s other children.

Now it just reads:

Zina D. H. Young, a midwife and an educator, worked closely with Eliza R. Snow in the Relief Society. In 1870 Brigham Young called Sister Young to promote silk production among the women of the Church as part of the Church’s emphasis on home industry and self-sufficiency. During her presidency the Relief Society affiliated with the United States National Council of Women and campaigned for women’s suffrage. Sister Young continued the Relief Society’s emphasis on health care, grain storage, education, and compassionate service.

Edited August 30, 2011 by cinepro

[alter idem]

Helen wasn't the one choosing who she would go with.

This is my point.

In response to the original op Inquiring mind posted; this particular situation with Zina Young was outside the norm for LDS polygamy. It bothers me that people will blame Brigham Young for 'stealing' Zina away from her husband. If he did anything to alienate her affections for her husband then he'll have to answer for it on the other side, but the fact is, that Zina had a choice. Plenty of women sent husbands off on missions and managed to stay married. She didn't and we do not know what was going on in her marriage/family life so I think it best to leave it to God to judge.

What dismays me is the narrowminded view of this situation; seeing it as Zina was 'taken' from one man by another(as if she were a possession with no free will) and there is no consideration of what her desires were in the matter. For whatever reasons, she chose to leave Henry Jacobs for Brigham Young.

How do I, an LDS person look at this? I know that Prophets can sin, David is a great example, and so I realize that Brigham Young could have been in the wrong, however, I choose not to judge because I don't know their hearts and what was going on. I'll let God be the judge.

[Zakuska]

You know I think the problem many LDS have with this, especially in Utah, is that they grow up in such stable families and are taught so much of the eternal family. That when real life happens and the messes it brings, like parents dying and another taking the kids and raising them as their own, etc. etc.

They just have a hard time dealing with it. I have a cousin who's husband died and because of the teachings on the eternality of the family she won't date or even think about getting married again because she says she feels like she's cheating on her late husband.

I know My Mission President's wife when she passed, had already chosen her best friend who had been divorced and left with 4 kids to raise, as his second wife. On her death bed she told them both she wanted them to get married so they wouldn't have to be alone. Now that selfless act takes quite a bit of doing!

I think this is where the Saducees and Pharasees also got hung up, trying to catch Christ in his teachings of the Eternal life of Man by throwing in silly questions like "Who's of the seven men's wife will she be". They were grappling and trying to make sense of it all. Yes in this case they were setting a trap, but then one must ask... who gave them the idea of Eternal Marriage in the first place? Who was preaching it?

[alter idem]

Anyone interested in the Zina story should check out this thread.

Around this time, the Church actually corrected their bio of Zina on the website!

It originally read:

Now it just reads:

'Widowed by her first husband'???? That was dishonest. I'm glad they fixed it.

Some people have good intentions--they think to whitewash things to spare the person's reputation, but facts are facts. Most people's lives are a mix of good and bad, maybe even some scandals. Can you imagine if the Old Testament had been written by well-intentioned do-gooders? It wouldn't be nearly as interesting to read.

[Zakuska]

My personal view is having more than one wife is excessive. I find the one I have to be sufficient. Once in my early marriage we moved back in with my parents for a few months. It was then that my mother said that “no kitchen in the world is big enough for two women”. I thought she was prophesying so I took it to heart.

AMEN!

You know... Multiple Wifes means Multiple Mother in Laws too.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[phaedrus ut]

CFR please for the exact date of the mission you are thinking of (there are a few mentioned, at least one with little support for it).

Helen wasn't the one choosing who she would go with.

Cal,

Are you questioning the fact that Henry Jacobs served a mission because you seem to be agreeing with me that he did or are you questioning that he served a mission after being married to Zina?

Phaedrus

Edited August 30, 2011 by phaedrus ut

[cinepro]

AMEN!

You know... Multiple Wifes means Multiple Mother in Laws too.

Not if you marry them too.

[Zakuska]

Not if you marry them too.

Good lordy. Is some one trying to Multiply women unto himself or what?!

PS. Isn't the saying that when you marry a woman you marry her family too?

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

Cal,

Are you questioning the fact that Henry Jacobs served a mission because you seem to be agreeing with me that he did or are you questioning that he served a mission after being married to Zina?

Phaedrus

Just want more information please of what you are talking about...wouldn't want me to protest something before I knew it was wrong, would you?

[Pahoran]

Yes, it is factually correct. Brigham Young had no truck with Joseph Smith's polyandry. This single aspect of Joseph Smithy's plural marriage "adventures" is why I am convinced that the LDS faith is manmade, as are all religions, and always have been, period.

Non-questing,

Every time I see one of your arrogant, dogmatic, pontifical pronouncements, I find myself biting my tongue; but every now and then I find that a response needs to be made.

This is one of those times.

Everyone knows, by now, that your towering intellect is vastly superior to all mere Mormons put together; but all the same, that doesn't excuse you from the same rules and conventions that govern everyone else here.

This forum is for discussion, not for testimony -- or un-testimony -- bearing.

Convinced as you are that your half-thought-out knee-jerk opinions are nothing less than the pure outpourings of the mind of God, I'm afraid the rest of us are not so convinced. Your conviction that "the LDS faith is manmade, as are all religions, and always have been, period," dogmatic and discussion-ending as it is, is ultimately worthless.

InquiringMind asked a question with every appearance of good faith. Since your answer was entirely unhelpful, and never stood a chance of being the least bit helpful, the best thing you could have done was to smugly congratulate yourself on the vast superiority of your brilliant mind -- and do it silently.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Nathair/|\]

A few good articles here.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/search/?fulltext=Zina+Huntington+Jacobs&jbms_vol=&jbms_num=&review_vol=&review_num=&author=&search=Search+The+Maxwell+Institute

[phaedrus ut]

Just want more information please of what you are talking about...wouldn't want me to protest something before I knew it was wrong, would you?

I made reference to a allusion of Zina being a modern day Helen of Troy. Obviously just a metaphor as she seems to be a very desired woman. You're the one who hit me with the CFR and I was just asking what you were challenging me on. It's known from many sources that Henry Jacobs was doing missionary work with John D. Lee in 1842. Alan Wyatt mentions that in his FAIR presentation on Zina and Her Men. Lee wrote about their time together in his Journals. It's also well known that Henry later was called to serve a mission by Brigham Young to England. But again I'm not sure why you're asking for a CFR.

For example, since Zina was married to both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith you could say she was the first Latter-Day Saint with a prophet sharing plan. I'm just making a metaphor in jest and a slight play on words not actually claiming she had a qualified retirement plan with contributions from her employer.

Phaedrus

[Calm]

It's known from many sources that Henry Jacobs was doing missionary work with John D. Lee in 1842.

Just not sure which mission you were referring to and whether or not it would make a difference in how I viewed your posts. I was feeling cautious after Questing Beast's misrepresentations (which I do not believe were intentional, just ignorant, perhaps even just misremembered.)

For example, since Zina was married to both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith you could say she was the first Latter-Day Saint with a prophet sharing plan. I'm just making a metaphor in jest and a slight play on words not actually claiming she had a qualified retirement plan with contributions from her employer.

In one sense you are correct in that Joseph Smith did ask the Twelve to look after his wives after his death (which is why Zina had a choice of whom to marry among the twelve) and they did so by accepting any of those who desired to be sealed to them in proxy for Joseph Smith (I do not know how many accepted, but I believe it was the majority, if not almost all).

PS to board: again sorry for the constant editing, need some sleep, making too many ridiculous typos and errors

PPS to Phaedrus: one of my hobbies has been Greek and Roman Mythology, so I am very familiar with the myth of Helen. Her treatment was so horrible by those claiming to love her I just cringed with the comparison, but I understand and accept the general (though superficial ) analogy of desirabilty.....just don't take it any further please .

Edited August 31, 2011 by calmoriah

[phaedrus ut]

In one sense you are correct in that Joseph Smith did ask the Twelve to look after his wives after his death (which is why Zina had a choice of whom to marry among the twelve) and they did so by accepting any of those who desired to be sealed to them in proxy for Joseph Smith (I do not know how many accepted, but I believe it was the majority, if not almost all).

That isn't exactly accurate about Zina having a choice among the 12 to marry. The statement implies she was a widow. She was already married to a faithful latter-day saint. They continued to live as husband and wife after Joseph's death and even had another son in March 1846 named Henry. Two months later Henry was called on a mission to England and within 3 months of that Zina was living with Brigham. So yes I suppose Brigham did a good job of looking over Joseph's wife but apparently much to the regret of her husband at the time.

Phaedrus

[Calm]

That isn't exactly accurate about Zina having a choice among the 12 to marry. The statement implies she was a widow.

Wasn't meant that way. The links I posted make it quite clear that Henry and Zina were still acting as man and wife when she was sealed to Joseph (she was pregnant at that time and when she was sealed in proxy to Brigham IIRC), I just assumed from them and what had been discussed before about Henry being around made it clear that she was still residing with him until some time later.

The regret may need to be assumed (and I think there is likely at least some sadness and loneliness there and regret for 'might have beens') as again IIRC there is no expression of 'why did you choose him over me' or chiding her for other decisions in his letters.