Excessive Polygamy?

[inquiringmind]

I'm considering baptism, but something really bothers me (and I'd like thoughts on it.)

To be LDS, I'd have to accept Brigham Young as a prophet, and I've read that he had 25 wives, at least one of whom had another Mormon husband who travelled west with her and Brigham, and was eventually told to get lost and find a wife of his own after they got to Utah.

It's been awhile since I read of this, but I think her name was Zina Huntington Jacobs.

TWhatever her name was, the man who was told to get lost and find a wife of his own (because she was sealed to Joseph, and Brigham was his proxy) was her original husband, and apparently remained loyal to the Chrch, never questioned Brigham's authority, accepted it as a trial, went to California, and wrote letters to his wife discribing his awful lonliness (in his state of estrangement from her, and his children, whom Brigham also claimed.)

All this is based on something I read some time ago, but if it's true...

I keep asking myself how all this could be entirely at God's command?

Why would He give one man 25 wives (almost one for each day of the month), including one who already had a husband?

Have any of you ever read of this?

Is it factually correct?

And if so, how can you reconcile it with Brigham being a prophet (whose words and actions were inspired by God)?

Edited August 30, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Questing Beast]

Yes, it is factually correct. Brigham Young had no truck with Joseph Smith's polyandry. This single aspect of Joseph Smithy's plural marriage "adventures" is why I am convinced that the LDS faith is manmade, as are all religions, and always have been, period.

I do believe that Mormon polygamy was a very mixed bag of inspiration, convenience, obedience, charity and simple male lust for pretty women. However, looking at the pictures of the great majority, I'd have to say that this last aspect was the most rare; and Mark Twain's twitting of Mormons over polygamy was right: they ought to be commended for giving all of those homely women husbands, for without polygamy they surely mostly would not have married.

If God had any hand in establishing polygamy (and I think that's a big "if"), it was to create an alienation with mainstream society, such that the Mormons were literally driven into the wilderness. Without that event Mormonism would not have amounted to anymore than a minor Judeo-Christian sect. Also, because of polygamy, the top leaders of the 20th century were drawn almost exclusively from that population of resulting children from polygamy: and those children were the offspring of the top leaders of the 19th century church, i.e. they were properly indoctrinated with the beliefs and commitment to the religion. One could say that God knew all of that had to happen to assure that Mormonism is the dynamic, world-wide religion that it became.

But as a related side note: I have to say that the current church is changing, and that too would be something that God knows all about and planned for. The increasing majority of Mormons are not from the USA. And sooner or later the top leadership positions will reflect this shift. But polygamy definitely played its role in establishing the solidarity of the Church in its early years.

Of course, polygamy is only a part of history in the mainstream church, and I would be as surprised as anyone could possibly be, if in the future the "prophet" announced that it was being reinstituted

[Calm]

I'm considering baptism, but something really bothers me (and I'd like thoughts on it.)

To be LDS, I'd have to accept Brigham Young as a prophet, and I've read that he had 25 wives, at least one of whom had another Mormon husband who travelled west with her and Brigham, and was eventually told to get lost and find a wife of his own after they got to Utah.

It's been awhile since I read of this, but I think her name was Zina Huntington Jacobs.

TWhatever her name was, the man who was told to get lost and find a wife of his own (because she was sealed to Joseph, and Brigham was his proxy) was her original husband, and apparently remained loyal to the Chrch, never questioned Brigham's authority, accepted it as a trial, went to California, and wrote letters to his wife discribing his awful lonliness (in his state of estrangement from her, and his children, whom Brigham also claimed.)

All this is based on something I read some time ago, but if it's true...

I keep asking myself how all this could be entirely at God's command?

Why would He give one man 25 wives (almost one for each day of the month), including one who already had a husband?

Have any of you ever read of this?

Is it factually correct?

And if so, how can you reconcile it with Brigham being a prophet (whose words and actions were inspired by God)?

Do you want the short, medium or long (and most detailed) version because it will make a difference what links I provide for you.

[inquiringmind]

Do you want the short, medium or long (and most detailed) version because it will make a difference what links I provide for you.

I'd like the longer, more detailed version (as I think it would be more helpful to me, and anyone else who might be reading along.)

Edited August 30, 2011 by inquiringmind

[jadams_4242]

I'm considering baptism, but something really bothers me (and I'd like thoughts on it.)

To be LDS, I'd have to accept Brigham Young as a prophet, and I've read that he had 25 wives, at least one of whom had another Mormon husband who travelled west with her and Brigham, and was eventually told to get lost and find a wife of his own after they got to Utah.

It's been awhile since I read of this, but I think her name was Zina Huntington Jacobs.

TWhatever her name was, the man who was told to get lost and find a wife of his own (because she was sealed to Joseph, and Brigham was his proxy) was her original husband, and apparently remained loyal to the Chrch, never questioned Brigham's authority, accepted it as a trial, went to California, and wrote letters to his wife discribing his awful lonliness (in his state of estrangement from her, and his children, whom Brigham also claimed.)

All this is based on something I read some time ago, but if it's true...

I keep asking myself how all this could be entirely at God's command?

Why would He give one man 25 wives (almost one for each day of the month), including one who already had a husband?

Have any of you ever read of this?

Is it factually correct?

And if so, how can you reconcile it with Brigham being a prophet (whose words and actions were inspired by God)?

Actually he had 54 wifes; and i,m sure their had to be problems hear and their with a few of them, wheather ot not the paticular story you refferenced is true i wouldnt be so sure it was excatly as you were told. having said that; yes polygamy obviously got out of hand, and quite possibly by a prophet or two? to which my answer would be;; was paul perfect? was matthew, mark, luke, john? is the pastor, bishop or preacher of any religon perfect? has their ever been but one perfect person whom ever walked this earth? yes prophets make misstakes, they are human, just as in any other religon,organization, group or household.

Edited August 30, 2011 by jadams_4242

[Calm]

Urrggghhh, more work....

Just for you, :

www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Zina_and_Her_Men.html

http://en.fairmormon.org/Polyandry (brief summary, good to start for overall framework and then read the above two articles, also see additional links with resources to read at the bottom on additional related topics).

After you read these for background, if you are still interested in discussing personal points of view, I would be happy to and probably a number of others as well.

I would also recommend if you are serious about getting baptized, since you also appear serious about history, reading these books if you haven't yet as I think all three combined provide the historical 'flavour' of our faith quite well:

Rough Stone Rolling (includes Joseph Smith and the start of the LDS faith), Bushman

Brigham Young, American Moses (covers early days and more of the Utah experience), Arrington

The Mormon Experience (good overall view though it doesn't include every little detail up until the 70s, IIRC), Bitton and Arrington

[Calm]

Actually he had 54 wifes; and i,m sure their had to be problems hear and their with a few of them, wheather ot not the paticular story you refferenced is true

Yes, the particular story is true and not true (there was a woman with that name who was married first to Henry Jacobs, then sealed to Joseph Smith and after his death, Brigham Young. Details get a little convoluted, I think Allen Wyatt did a great job in clearing them up as much as possible.

Of the 54**** wives, only one sued him for divorce, meaning she didn't want to just be divorced from him, she wanted money to go along with it (other wives divorced him which he granted with no problem if that was what they desired, especially if they wanted to marry someone else). A number of his wives he married to take on the responsibility of caring for them without any evidence of a conjugal relationship. I know there is a list somewhere showing these details, will go looking for it.

Here's Arrington's: http://home.utah.edu...gham_Young.html

Leonard J. Arrington's award-winning biography, Brigham Young: American Moses (1985, 420-21), divides the wives into three groups: (1) the sixteen wives who had children by Brigham Young,

(2) nine others whom "Brigham Young held out to be wives" but who had no children by him, and (3) "some thirty women" who were sealed to him for eternity only, but whom he does not name.

*****Trying to get an accurate number

Addon: Do a search on Determining and Defining 'Wife': The Brigham Young Households

Can't get a direct link for that article, haven't read all of it yet, my memory says the author is decent, will doublecheck to see if there is anything to be cautious over.

Edited August 30, 2011 by calmoriah

[Zakuska]

What I would like the critics of polygamy to explain is why God is depicted as a polygamist so often in Scripture?

Take for example the Parable of two sisters. Who represent two nations who are married to the Lord and who bare children for him and who commit adultuery against him.

Ezekiel 23

1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

6 Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

7 Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.

17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

22 ¶Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.

24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.

25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

27 Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.

28 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:

29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

31 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.

32 Thus saith the Lord God; Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.

33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

35 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

36 ¶The Lord said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;

37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.

40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.

42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.

43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?

44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

45 ¶And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

46 For thus saith the Lord God; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.

49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.

The same kind of thing is presented in Jeremiah 3 where God is again depitced as being married to two Sisters... Israel and her adulturous sister Judah.

Jer 3

6 ¶The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

If God is so h*** bent against Polygamy why is he dipicting himself of all people as a Polygamist?

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[inquiringmind]

Yes, the particular story is true and not true (there was a woman with that name who was married first to Henry Jacobs, then sealed to Joseph Smith and after his death, Brigham Young. Details get a little convoluted, I think Allen Wyatt did a great job in clearing them up as much as possible.

I'm not familiar with Allen Wyatt, or his work.

Did he write a book or article (and is it available online)?

Could you share some of the details he cleared up here?

(I'm interested in details like what happened to Henry Jacobs, whether he died estranged from his wife and children, and why God would want this.)

Edited August 30, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

I'm not familiar with Allen Wyatt, or his work.

It's one of the links I gave you, the one specifically about Zina.

Don't have time--head's killing me, got to go get something to eat, air conditioner is broken so I've been hiding out in my bedroom all day where it's either sleep or compute---and won't say it as well, read the article so you won't miss anything. Doesn't take that long....well, didn't for me as I'm a fast reader, but still shouldn't be too long for anyone good enough to venture onto this board.

[inquiringmind]

It's one of the links I gave you, the one specifically about Zina.

Thank you.

P.S. It was the first link.

I just finished reading it, and I thank you.

Edited August 30, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Sevenbak]

I put into perspective by thinking about King Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines...

Brigham was a small timer...

[Zakuska]

I put into perspective by thinking about King Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines...

Brigham was a small timer...

Kind David had a minimum of 18 at one point but ten of them got defiled by his son before he could sleep with them all so they became his sons wives and after his son usurped the throne and then was killed by David they were locked away in widowhood because their Husband was now dead.

[Questing Beast]

...

(I'm interested in details like what happened to Henry Jacobs, whether he died estranged from his wife and children, and why God would want this.)

He died "in good standing" with the Church. Todd Compton's chapter on Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young says that Henry was buried in his temple clothes. I recall reading how he tried to convince Zina to leave Young and come to live in California. And for that Henry was briefly either disfellowshipped or excommunicated. The entire story of the threesome, Henry, Zina and Brigham, is quite the "love triangle", with Young winning out and Jacobs appearing to be forlorn and castoff.

I don't believe that "God" had anything to do with it. Brigham Young was a powerful leader. Zina Huntington was an attractive, superior woman, and Henry Jacobs was an average nobody. As Young told Henry, "You can go and get a wife worthy of your station. Do not expect to marry above it." (words to that effect) He comes across as quite superior and cold-hearted. But maybe Henry just had that effect on people who were superior to his capacities....

[alter idem]

Zina chose Brigham Young over Henry Jacobs because she wanted to be married to him, plain and simple. She wasn't chattel, she was a free woman with the ability to choose her own destiny.

Maybe she was in love with Brigham Young or maybe she liked the status she had married to him. Only she knows the reasons she chose him over Henry Jacobs.

Clearly it was very hard for Henry, because she didn't want to be with him, and I empathize with his pain over being rejected, but she was given a choice and she chose what she felt would make her happy, give her children more, etc.

[Calm]

And for that Henry was briefly either disfellowshipped or excommunicated.

Not quite, he was disfellowshipped for performing an unauthorized plural marriage for WWPhelps, who was excommunicated. He was also disfellowshipped later for abandoning his fourth wife to remarry either his second or third wife, both of whom had left him.

As Young told Henry, "You can go and get a wife worthy of your station. Do not expect to marry above it." (words to that effect) He comes across as quite superior and cold-hearted.

Unfortunately this is from a report by only one individual, William Hall, who claims it took place in front of hundreds of people who never reported it, including one individual who continued to call Zina "Sister Jacobs" for over a year afterwards.

http://www.fairlds.o...nd_Her_Men.html

Edited August 30, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Maybe she was in love with Brigham Young or maybe she liked the status she had married to him. Only she knows the reasons she chose him over Henry Jacobs.

As well as all other members of the 12.

[Zakuska]

As well as all other members of the 12.

Ah the fantasies of Childhood.

[Zakuska]

inquiringmind,

Just an FYI, I don't think you'll have to worry about Polygamy any time soon.

Jacob 2

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

It's pretty much out for the count since the Lord has a righteous branch 13 Million + strong and no need to raise up any seed by its use.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[phaedrus ut]

I see Zina Huntington as the Helen of Mormon history. Instead of launching a thousand ships it was only a few ships & wagons as her first husband was sent away on a mission by Joseph.

Phaedrus

[Calm]

I see Zina Huntington as the Helen of Mormon history. Instead of launching a thousand ships it was only a few ships & wagons as her first husband was sent away on a mission by Joseph.

CFR please for the exact date of the mission you are thinking of (there are a few mentioned, at least one with little support for it).

Helen wasn't the one choosing who she would go with.

Edited August 30, 2011 by calmoriah

[Samurai2012]

I put into perspective by thinking about King Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines...

Brigham was a small timer...

Mostly foreign and worshippers of "Strange Gods" too, I might add. The real problem with Solomon is a demonstration IMO, of what is wrong with an absolute monarchy as the system of government.

[cinepro]

I'm considering baptism, but something really bothers me (and I'd like thoughts on it.)

To be LDS, I'd have to accept Brigham Young as a prophet, and I've read that he had 25 wives, at least one of whom had another Mormon husband who travelled west with her and Brigham, and was eventually told to get lost and find a wife of his own after they got to Utah.

It's been awhile since I read of this, but I think her name was Zina Huntington Jacobs.

You people are all out to lunch.

The Church has actually published what really happened in the Friend:

After Henry deserted Zina and the two little boys, Zebulon and Chariton, she married Brigham Young and crossed the plains to the Salt Lake Valley with his family. A few years later a daughter, Zina Presendia Young, was born.

So there you go. A story so simple, even a child could understand it.

[Zakuska]

You people are all out to lunch.

The Church has actually published what really happened in the Friend:

So there you go. A story so simple, even a child could understand it.

Yeah... but the story doesn't mention that BY was already married to other women at the time so it's obvious that the Church is trying to hide the fact that he was a polygamist from those little impresionable minds. </sarcasm>

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[cinepro]

Yeah... but the story doesn't mention that BY was already married to other women at the time so it's obvious that the Church is trying to hide the fact that he was a polygamist from those little impresionable minds. </sarcasm>

Hiding indeed...

Zina was first married to Henry Bailey Jacobs, and gave birth to two sons. Later, she married Brigham Young and gave birth to his daughter, Zina Presendia. She also reared Brigham Young’s four children by his wife Clarissa Chase when Clarissa died. “They were never anything but my own,” she lovingly declared.