Satan Controls The Waters

[auteur55]

So I'm going on a trip to California in September with a friend of mine and her parents. We are staying at a beach house that literally sits right on the beach for the entire week. I'll be there with my daughter and all the family's other grandkids. The mother told everyone that she strictly forbids anyone getting into the water on Sunday. When I asked why the kids couldn't get into the water but she was ok with them sitting on the beach building sand castles she said because Satan controls the water. When I asked why is swimming on Sunday anymore dangerous then swimming on Monday she said "because if we are breaking the Sabbath it gives Satan more power." Now I'm not even debating the logic behind how letting a wave splash on you is somehow breaking the Sabbath but I was pretty floored upon hearing this. My friend's Mom is a smart, rational human being yet somehow this type of irrational, illogical piece of folklore has crept into her belief system.

Now i've always believed that the Satan controlling the waters thing was simple Mormon folklore and mis-interpretation of scripture but I'm amazed at some of the things well intentioned, well educated Mormons will believe.

Also the longer I'm in the church the more disturbed I get by differing interpretation on what constitutes Sabbath breaking and what doesn't. I think some of the most extremist examples of Mormon worship revolve around this. Some people are borderline sociopathic on what they'll do to avoid breaking the sabbath to the point of squeezing every bit of common sense and joy out of the day. Others are super strict about some things while doing other activities that aren't much different. How do these types of folklore and legends end up being so widely believed and accepted?

[TAO]

Erm... I'm pretty sure that was the destroying angel... it is referring to a verse in D&C. I don't know if it applies to more than that incident though... not sure =P.

The Sabbath is an interesting issue though... I'm not sure what others expect of it... I would just do my best to live up to what God expects of you on it =). Ask him, and he just may tell you something about it.

Edited August 27, 2011 by TAO

[mapman]

I have argued before that the destroyer mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants is a reference to the destroyer mentioned in the Passover story (Exodus 12), what we more commonly call "the destroying angel". I'm not sure when people started interpreting the destroyer as Satan.

Edited August 27, 2011 by mapman

[TAO]

I have argued before that the destroyer mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants is a reference to the destroyer mentioned in the Passover story (Exodus 12), what we more commonly call "the destroying angel". I'm not sure when people started interpreting the destroyer as Satan.

Definitely could be, not sure =).

It would be good to find some General Authority quotes for stuff like this... I'm sure they exist somewhere... and I remember my seminary teacher talking about one... but in any case, I shall wait and see =).

[mapman]

Definitely could be, not sure =).

It would be good to find some General Authority quotes for stuff like this... I'm sure they exist somewhere... and I remember my seminary teacher talking about one... but in any case, I shall wait and see =).

I'm not sure either, but according to my present understanding it is the most likely of two plausible interpretations, I think. Scriptures.byu.edu usually has good quotes from General Authorities about scripture verses but I couldn't find any quotes on there about the identity of the destroyer in section 61. A search on lds.org shows that various General Authorities referenced Satan as the destroyer, but this doesn't really help clarify what was originally meant in section 61. I think that I remember reading a Joseph Fielding Smith quote about the destroyer being Satan and I think it may have been in Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine as well.

[kolipoki09]

While we could debate the logic behind this all day, I don't think an appeal to it is going to get us any closer to understanding what rests behind it if faith is thrown out the window. It appears the individual in question has an interesting take on a few passages in D&C 61.

3 But verily I say unto you, that it is not needful for this whole company of mine elders to be moving swiftly upon the waters, whilst the inhabitants on either side are perishing in unbelief.

4 Nevertheless, I suffered it that ye might bear record; behold, there are many dangers upon the waters, and more especially hereafter;

5 For I, the Lord, have decreed in mine anger many destructions upon the waters; yea, and especially upon these waters.

6 Nevertheless, all flesh is in mine hand, and he that is faithful among you shall not perish by the waters.

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

Elder Alvin R. Dyer used these verses to discourage the administration of David O. McKay from building "Temple Ships." You can read more about that here.

[Calm]

While we could debate the logic behind this all day, I don't think an appeal to it is going to get us any closer to understanding what rests behind it if faith is thrown out the window. It appears the individual in question has an interesting take on a few passages in D&C 61.

I would say it does make logical sense based on a certain interpretation of the scriptures. I would tend to argue that the interpretation was faulty, not the logic.

But in regards to the actual example, I am wondering why the reasoning to stay out of the water is because Satan has more power over one when one is sinning and one would be sinning by swimming on the Sabbath rather than just saying we aren't going swimming because that would be breaking the Sabbath (the reasoning why sitting on the beach is okay is, I believe, that quiet physical activity will not drive away the spirit, but strong, highly active physical sports such as swimming does...) I would be more concerned about that idea (that it is okay to sin as long as you don't get hurt by it) than her misinterpretation of a scripture.

Now I'm not even debating the logic behind how letting a wave splash on you is somehow breaking the Sabbath but I was pretty floored upon hearing this.

While she may think willing contact with those aspects of the world that she believes Satan controls may be what is sinful about the activity (perhaps like a much more extreme case of going into a strip bar ), it is possible that it is not the presence of the 'waters' themselves that is the issue for her, but rather the level of physical activity that it likely would lead to or she just may think that physical activity at all is inappropriate for Sabbath activities, "getting into the water" sounds more like splashing and swimming about rather than walking along the beach with possible gentle waves touching one's feet. If the latter, it seems a more extreme interpretation than our leaders give us as various ones in the past have spoken approvingly of driving or walking in the mountains for the activity of admiring God's work in nature (as opposed to rock climbing or backpacking or kayaking which makes one focus on one's own physical attributes rather than God's work). Edited August 27, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

While we could debate the logic behind this all day, I don't think an appeal to it is going to get us any closer to understanding what rests behind it if faith is thrown out the window. It appears the individual in question has an interesting take on a few passages in D&C 61.

The scriptures you are citing are interesting taken with the scriptural experience of Christ stilling the storm and Peter's attempt to walk on water to Christ.

[Zakuska]

While we could debate the logic behind this all day, I don't think an appeal to it is going to get us any closer to understanding what rests behind it if faith is thrown out the window. It appears the individual in question has an interesting take on a few passages in D&C 61.

Elder Alvin R. Dyer used these verses to discourage the administration of David O. McKay from building "Temple Ships." You can read more about that here.

I'd say that the "waters" that are being spoken of are metephorical representation of the peoples of the earth. Like in Johns Apocalypse.

[etana]

The scriptures you are citing are interesting taken with the scriptural experience of Christ stilling the storm and Peter's attempt to walk on water to Christ.

Yes and add to that the ANE concept of God (or his heroic son) slaying the chaos beast of the waters and I see a metaphor for God being in control of "nature" or the seemingly dispassionate eternally branching cause and effect of the universe. Playing it so that it's seeming randomness is all turned to our good.

[Wiki Wonka]

Now i've always believed that the Satan controlling the waters thing was simple Mormon folklore and mis-interpretation of scripture but I'm amazed at some of the things well intentioned, well educated Mormons will believe.

We have a FAIR Wiki article on the subject:

The Mormon understanding of Satan/Dominion over waters

Question

I know I was told in the MTC that missionaries were not to ever swim because Satan had dominion over the waters. So what is the actual Church doctrine on this subject?

Answer

Background of the revelation

The introduction to D&C section 61 provides background:

On their return trip to Kirtland the Prophet and ten elders had traveled down the Missouri River in canoes. On the third day of the journey many dangers were experienced. Elder William W. Phelps, in daylight vision, saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the waters.

The following revelation was then received:

DC 61:13-19

13 And now, behold, for your good I gave unto you a commandment concerning these things; and I, the Lord, will reason with you as with men in days of old.

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

What waters is the Lord referring to?

Note that the Lord specifies these waters. Joseph Fielding Smith provides some additional clarification:

These brethren while encamped at McIlwaine's Bend on the Missouri, beheld the power of the destroyer as he rode upon the storm. One of that number saw him in all his fearful majesty, and the Lord revealed to the entire group something of the power of this evil personage. It may seem strange to us, but it is the fact that Satan exercises dominion and has some control over the elements . . . Paul speaks of Satan as the "prince of the power of the air. " (Eph.2:2) The Lord revealed to these brethren some of the power of the adversary of mankind and how he rides upon the storm, as a means of affording them protection. They were commanded to use judgment as they traveled upon these waters, and the saints coming to Zion were instructed to travel by land on their way up to Zion. Moreover, notwithstanding the great power of Satan upon the waters, the Lord still held command and he could protect his people whether on land or by water as they journeyed. [1]

B.H. Roberts indicates that this refers specifically to the waters of western Missouri:

After three days upon the river they reached McIlwaine's Bend where they camped for the night, and here an important revelation was given relative to their own movements and also in relation to the "destroyer" that should ride upon those western waters, and the danger thereafter of journeying upon them. Shortly after landing, and before night fell upon the scene, William W. Phelps beheld in open vision the "destroyer" in his most horrible power ride upon the face of the waters. "Others," continues the Prophet in his narrative, "heard the noise but saw not the vision." "Behold there are many dangers upon the waters," said the revelation, "and more especially hereafter; for I, the Lord, have declared in mine anger, many destructions upon the waters; yea, and especially upon these waters [i. e. of western Missouri]. * * * And now, behold, for your good, I give unto you a commandment concerning these things." Then follows instructions to the saints who shall hereafter journey to the land of Zion, not to go upon the river, but by land, "pitching their tents by the way." [2]

How does this revelation apply to missionaries in the field?

The connection between missionary policy and the reference to the "destroyer" riding the face of the waters in D&C 61 is a persistent Mormon urban legend. One must consider that LDS missionaries frequently travel by water to reach remote islands. Before the advent of modern air travel, all overseas missionaries were required to travel by ship to Europe, Asia, and other foreign lands. Missionaries, of course, bathe and perform baptisms in water.

The Church has a general policy prohibiting full-time missionaries from swimming. This is simply a safety precaution to prevent drowning or other water related accidents. There are a number of other mission rules that vary depending upon the mission. For example, some missions prohibit missionaries from playing basketball. Rock climbing is usually a prohibited activity. Mission rules are designed to keep missionaries safe by preventing them from participating in high-risk physical activities.

Endnotes

[1] Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation (1947), Vol. 1, p. 207.

[2] B.H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 262.

[Questing Beast]

I was raised on this one. My mother was raised in Vernal Utah, by a mother who was extremely devout and I would say even bordering fanatical. Sabbath day behavior was strictly defined along with "doctrines" such as this one of Satan possessing power over "the waters", especially bodies of water where Sabbath-breakers are engaged in aquatic diversions. I don't doubt that my childhood fear of deep water was spawned by this aversion to water activities on the Sabbath. Somewhere back then, as I prepared to dip my slithy toes into the wading pool, my grandmother must have put the fear of "God" into my budding testimony.

On my return from my mission to NZ, we stopped for a few days in Hawaii. I body surfed (before being released from my mission, oh the horror!). Sure enough, I got tumbled severely. Although I had a firm grip on my glasses when I started, by the time I had been deposited half conscious on the beach my glasses were gone forever. I tried not to attribute it to anything more than my stupidity, body surfing with eye glasses in my hand: heh, what did I expect to happen anyway?...

[Zakuska]

Why does section 61 remind me of this Psalm?

Psalm 18

David praises the Lord for his greatness and preserving care—The Lord’s way is perfect—The Lord has given marvelous blessings—David testifies, The Lord lives, and blessed be my Rock.

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the Lord, who spake unto the Lord the words of this song in the day that the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said, 1 I will love thee, O Lord, my strength.

2 The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

5 The sorrows of h*** compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.

17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the Lord was my stay.

19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.

20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.

22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

24 Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.

25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;

26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

28 For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.

30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

31 For who is God save the Lord? or who is a rock save our God?

32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

33 He maketh my feet like hinds’ feet, and setteth me upon my high places.

34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.

37 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.

38 I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.

39 For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.

40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.

41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the Lord, but he answered them not.

42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.

43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.

44 As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.

45 The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.

46 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

47 It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.

48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.

49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.

50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

[Zakuska]

I was raised on this one. My mother was raised in Vernal Utah, by a mother who was extremely devout and I would say even bordering fanatical. Sabbath day behavior was strictly defined along with "doctrines" such as this one of Satan possessing power over "the waters", especially bodies of water where Sabbath-breakers are engaged in aquatic diversions. I don't doubt that my childhood fear of deep water was spawned by this aversion to water activities on the Sabbath. Somewhere back then, as I prepared to dip my slithy toes into the wading pool, my grandmother must have put the fear of "God" into my budding testimony.

I wonder if we could prove if Peter and the fishermen ever boarded a boat on the Sabbath. You know water walking on the Sabbath?! It seems to me that the man who was trying to go in the water and bath when the angel troubled the waters was healed in the Waters on a Sabbath.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Zakuska

[mapman]

Something came to me today while I was thinking about this.

D&C 61:14 says "Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters."

In the beginning, God declared his creations good "and my Spirit moved upon the face of the water; for I am God." (Moses 2:2). In the last days the Lord has cursed the waters and instead of sending his Spirit upon the face of the deep he has decreed that "the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree." (D&C 61:19)

I don't know, maybe I'm reading to much into it.

Edited August 28, 2011 by mapman

[Stargazer]

So I'm going on a trip to California in September with a friend of mine and her parents. We are staying at a beach house that literally sits right on the beach for the entire week. I'll be there with my daughter and all the family's other grandkids. The mother told everyone that she strictly forbids anyone getting into the water on Sunday. When I asked why the kids couldn't get into the water but she was ok with them sitting on the beach building sand castles she said because Satan controls the water. When I asked why is swimming on Sunday anymore dangerous then swimming on Monday she said "because if we are breaking the Sabbath it gives Satan more power." Now I'm not even debating the logic behind how letting a wave splash on you is somehow breaking the Sabbath but I was pretty floored upon hearing this. My friend's Mom is a smart, rational human being yet somehow this type of irrational, illogical piece of folklore has crept into her belief system.

Now i've always believed that the Satan controlling the waters thing was simple Mormon folklore and mis-interpretation of scripture but I'm amazed at some of the things well intentioned, well educated Mormons will believe.

Also the longer I'm in the church the more disturbed I get by differing interpretation on what constitutes Sabbath breaking and what doesn't. I think some of the most extremist examples of Mormon worship revolve around this. Some people are borderline sociopathic on what they'll do to avoid breaking the sabbath to the point of squeezing every bit of common sense and joy out of the day. Others are super strict about some things while doing other activities that aren't much different. How do these types of folklore and legends end up being so widely believed and accepted?

To a certain degree I have tested some of these notions and found them to be rather full of baloney. Take sabbath-keeping for instance. At one point in my life I habitually went to shop in whatever store I needed something in, regardless of the day of the week. I drove to these stores -- didn't swim there, sorry -- and though one might be worried that one is more likely to get into an accident while sabbath-breaking, I've never experienced any. The only thing that bothered me (and not very much) was the idea that some member of my ward might see me walking into or out of the store on Sunday. I wasn't worried about finding one of them in the store with me -- because in that instance we could smile and point guilty fingers at each other.

There is a convenience store just a block and a half from church, and it is of course open on Sunday. Our young Aaronic Priesthood brethren sometimes find themselves in that store during Sunday School. So far, none has suffered any untoward accident while crossing the street to get to the store.

My first LDS girlfriend didn't believe in kissing on Sunday. I couldn't get a rational explanation out of her, either, as to why not. Her parents kissed on Sunday, I pointed out, but that was apparently different.

I suppose that one might do some research into water-accidents in Utah among the LDS, and see if there is a statistically significant rise in water-accidents on the Sabbath. The only problem with this is that if most LDS don't go into the water on Sunday, then we have a problem with there being a "self fulfilling" doctrine.

You can definitely prove that never drinking alcohol reduces your chances of getting into an alcohol-related automobile accident. Doesn't make it zero, however, since there's people who do drink and drive.

And after all this, I do believe that going into the water and swimming on the Sabbath is probably violating the Sabbath. I don't think you need some kind of bogus "Satan controls the water" idea to enforce it, however.

My fellow LDS believe a number of strange things that I do not. I forgive them for their foibles, and just rock on.

[Ron Beron]

Yes and add to that the ANE concept of God (or his heroic son) slaying the chaos beast of the waters and I see a metaphor for God being in control of "nature" or the seemingly dispassionate eternally branching cause and effect of the universe. Playing it so that it's seeming randomness is all turned to our good.

There is ostensibly some connection between the tehom (And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ) in Genesis and Taimat or "chaos of the salty water" in ANE literature. There has been considerable discussion on this in that the deep in ANE readings is actually Abzu or "the deep", but some have argued that tehom (t-h-m) was borrowed from the Ugaritic. The NET Bible presents an interesting explanation

tn The Hebrew term תְּהוֹם (tÿhom, “deep”) refers to the watery deep, the salty ocean – especially the primeval ocean that surrounds and underlies the earth (see Gen 7:11).The watery deep. In the Babylonian account of creation Marduk killed the goddess Tiamat (the salty sea) and used her carcass to create heaven and earth. The form of the Hebrew word for “deep” is distinct enough from the name “Tiamat” to deny direct borrowing; however, it is possible that there is a polemical stress here. Ancient Israel does not see the ocean as a powerful deity to be destroyed in creation, only a force of nature that can be controlled by God.

See also "The Yahweh-Tiamat Myth" by A.E. Whatham. The Biblical World vol. 36m No. 5 (Nov. 1910)

[Calm]

And after all this, I do believe that going into the water and swimming on the Sabbath is probably violating the Sabbath. I don't think you need some kind of bogus "Satan controls the water" idea to enforce it, however.

My fellow LDS believe a number of strange things that I do not. I forgive them for their foibles, and just rock on.

I figure if there is any increase of harm from Sabbath breaking it is probably most likely spiritual.

[Duncan]

I was raised on the notion that this only applied to missionaries. Once in the mission field the local seminary teacher asked us to come in and teach the kids about this, forget what we said about it, but today I go swimming all the time. You need to exercise caution but that applies to most everything, like roller skating-although I excell at that

[LeSellers]

I tried not to attribute it to anything more than my stupidity

Of course you did: what other option was there?

Lehi

[Maidservant]

Those verses in D & C 61 tend to attribute that whatever is happening to the Lord and not Satan, anyway. As well, the sending of a destroyer is in God's, not Satan's, hands.

I have heard this before in my Mormon life, about the water, and haven't had occasion to challenge the idea much, although I tend to be pragmatic about all things of that nature. I have had things more pertinent to my life to wrestle with.

I also believe strongly that God does not give a one-to-one retribution for any of our sins or weaknesses (or so-called, in some cases). The thing is that we are becoming who we are, whatever that will be, and that in and of itself is its own retribution or reward. Mortality is full of forces and any act has consequences . . . maybe not even just "good" consequences or "bad" consequences . . . just the fact that we end up somewhere by virtue of our acts and we can't control all that. Our best chances are to do good, it's tried and true.

As far as something like young men going to a convenience store during Sunday School, I don't conceive that they will have any punishment or any h*** from God . . . what they have IS that they are young men who are willing to go to a convenience store during Sunday School (not personally something I can respect, but that's just me, and they don't need to live their life by my opinion, of course). (And that's to continue to use a situation like that as an example.)

While I personally would not have my children swim on Sundays, having been taught, or at least trained, that recreation as such on the Sabbath is not a holy thing to do . . . I have lived long enough to realize just what someone else said, that everyone's ideas about Sabbath worship and activity and other gospel rules is very personal to them, and it varies widely. When I grew up, I was taught that absolutely I should never watch soap operas, I couldn't be a good Mormon and be watching soap operas. When I married my husband, I saw that his mom (also stake president's wife) watched her soap opera faithfully every day, and she is a very spiritual woman. Also, my husband's family would always play an extended family baseball game on Sundays (complete with girls still wearing their dresses), something which was completely outside of my view of keeping the Sabbath Day. On the other hand, my husband's family had a problem with girls wearing shorts (at any time), and I was always like, "What are you talking about? Not wearing shorts? And I'm not going to let you lay that on my daughters!" type of thing. So in other words . . . I give up. Ha ha. Everyone DOES have their own ideas. I knew one family, who in their desire to keep the word of Wisdom (that wheat was made for man), the husband only permitted (!!!!) his wife to cook wheat mush for breakfast, no other kind of breakfast. And I'm pretty much the kind of mom that if my kids ate some marshmellows floating in milk (i.e. cold cereal), then I'm doing good!

In other words, I try to be very careful about the pronouncements I make to say that THIS rule is how you REALLY keep the gospel! Of course, everyone has to live their life and make a few rules, as they think is best, and children often have to deal with how parents are and learn their best until they can grow and make new adult decisions.

As far as the water, I don't believe in a jinn- or demon- filled natural world, so nobody is going to "get" you for being in the water. . . . . I think . . .

[thesometimesaint]

A bathtub would be much easier to control than any lake or ocean that I know of. Members of the Church, including its Missionary's, aren't forbidden from taking a bath on the Sabbath.

[cinepro]

I have heard of a particular family in my stake with many kids, and they never, ever go swimming. Not in pools, lakes, rivers, or oceans. Never.

I don't know why.

Then there is a former bishop in my stake who, to hear him tell it, considers swimming in their pool a good activity to bring the family together on a Sunday afternoon. (He also considers trick-or-treating on Sunday "visiting the neighbors").

Further evidence that there are all different kinds of people in the Church.

[etana]

There is ostensibly some connection between the tehom (And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ) in Genesis and Taimat or "chaos of the salty water" in ANE literature. There has been considerable discussion on this in that the deep in ANE readings is actually Abzu or "the deep", but some have argued that tehom (t-h-m) was borrowed from the Ugaritic. The NET Bible presents an interesting explanation

See also "The Yahweh-Tiamat Myth" by A.E. Whatham. The Biblical World vol. 36m No. 5 (Nov. 1910)

Thanks for the additional insights!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Heard about this doctrine on the mission. Isn't it in the mission rules not to go swimming, and the reason being that Satan has control over the waters?

I had a comp relate a story were he claimed that after he was endowed, but before he was actually in the MTC, was swimming and he felt a presence drag him down. It later let go. Interesting, I suppose.