What Distinguishes The Evangelical Witness Vs. Lds Testimony

[ldsfaqs]

Many evangelicals speak about “the testimony of the Holy Spirit” and affirm that in some sense they know that Christianity is true because of that testimony or witness. Is this idea analogous to what the LDS Church teaches with regard to the Holy Ghost revealing that the Book of Mormon is true, per Moroni 10:4?

Since evangelicals vary among themselves in their doctrinal understanding of such questions, I cannot rule out that some evangelicals may think about the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a way that is analogous to the Mormon testimony of the Holy Ghost to the Book of Mormon. However, in general, I think the two views are quite dissimilar in some important respects.

For evangelicals (generally speaking), the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit has four foci:

1. The Holy Spirit convicts people of their sins (John 16:7-11). This means that the Holy Spirit stirs in the hearts of people the awareness that they are indeed sinners—that they are lost, under condemnation, and in need of divine mercy. We are all already objectively guilty of sin, but the Holy Spirit, if you will, makes us feel guilty—not with false guilt or in a destructive way, but a breaking of pride and self-justification.
2. The Holy Spirit convinces people to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior (John 16:13-14; 1 Cor. 12:3). The Holy Spirit not only makes us aware of our need for mercy, he makes us aware of our need for Christ. As we hear the gospel, as we read the New Testament and become acquainted with Jesus, the Holy Spirit moves in people’s hearts to warm them toward Jesus. They see not merely facts about Jesus; they see that Jesus is someone who loves them, who died for them, and who is utterly trustworthy. They are moved to turn to him in humility, to bow before him as Lord and to trust in him as Savior.
3. The Holy Spirit assures believers in Jesus Christ that God loves and accepts them as his adopted children (Rom. 8:14-17; 1 John 3:24; 4:13). Having confessed our sins and trusted in Christ as Savior and Lord, the Holy Spirit assures believers that God loves them and accepts them. This confidence is not for them merely a doctrine to which they assent but something personally relevant and applicable to them. They move from believing “Jesus died to atone for sins” to “Jesus died for me”; from believing “God loves and accepts as his children those who believe in Christ” to “God loves and accepts me as his child for Christ’s sake.” It is like the difference between intellectually recognizing that a man you haven’t seen for years is your father to knowing that your father loves you.
4. The Holy Spirit illuminates the minds of believers in Christ to recognize, accept, and apply the truth that the Holy Spirit has already revealed in Scripture (1 Cor. 2:9-15). For example, when a believer in Jesus Christ reads in Scripture that bearing false witness is sin, the believer, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, recognizes that this is God’s word, accepts it as such, and responds by reflecting on ways that he needs to change, if any, to live faithfully to that teaching. When a believer reads that Christ commissions his disciples to make disciples of all nations, the believer is moved by the Holy Spirit to want to have a part in carrying out that commission. This does not mean that the believer always understands Scripture correctly. Far from it. Having the Holy Spirit does not make a believer infallible. If the believer does not read the Bible, the Holy Spirit’s illumination will obviously do that believer no good. If the believer does not learn how to read the Bible properly, or if he brings a personal agenda to the text, he will make mistakes or exhibit blind spots in his understanding of the Bible. In general, though, those who truly trust in Christ experience the Bible opening up to them and their own hearts being willing to accept and apply what it teaches.

Hey, welcome to the Club..... Other than your "adding to the Word" Bibliolarty...... You have pretty much described LDS beliefs.

And guess what? You did it by using scripture.

A person who is convinced of his sin and need for mercy, who trusts in Christ as Lord and Savior, who is confident that God loves and accepts him for Christ’s sake, and who experiences the Holy Spirit’s illumination of the Bible as God’s word, clearly is convinced that Christianity is true. He knows that it is true personally and “existentially,” because for him Christianity is really all about his saving relationship with God through Jesus Christ as experienced by the indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. His confidence in the gospel is not limited to his mastery of theology, his exegetical facility, or his knowledge bank of answers to tough questions, because he has a personal relationship with God. This is what evangelicals, in general, mean by the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Now let’s talk about what the testimony of the Holy Spirit does not mean for evangelicals (again, generally speaking).

1. It does not mean that evangelicals pray to know whether some assertion of fact is true. We don’t pray to know whether Jesus was a real person, or whether he rose from the dead, or whether the Gospel of Luke was true Scripture. Evangelicals, generally speaking, do not encourage nonbelievers to pray to know if something is factually true. The only partial exception to this would be that evangelicals will sometimes encourage nonbelievers who are close to being convinced that the gospel is true, but who have doubts, to try praying and expressing honestly what is on their mind. “God, I’m not quite sure if you’re really there, but if you are, and if Jesus is your Son, I want to know it.” Such a prayer leaves entirely open how God might respond, or what he might use to bring full acceptance of the truth of the gospel.
2. It does not mean that evangelicals appeal to their possession of the Holy Spirit as an answer to intellectual objections to the Christian faith. “Don’t Romans 3 and James 2 disagree about justification and works?” “Your question doesn’t matter because I have the Holy Spirit and I know Christianity is true.” We just don’t reason this way. (If any individuals evangelicals do, they are out of sync with evangelicalism as a whole.) We may remain personally confident that God loves us in Christ even if we are not knowledgeable enough to address such objections, but we don’t substitute our Spirit-instilled trust in the gospel for answers to such questions.
3. It does not mean that evangelicals pray to know what denomination is the one true form of Christianity or to know which theological tradition to accept. “I prayed about whether to accept Calvinism or Arminianism, and the Holy Spirit witnessed to me that Calvinism is true.” No Calvinist would ever say such a thing. “I have a testimony from the Holy Spirit that the Southern Baptist Convention is the one true church in America today.” Not only would no Baptist appeal to the Holy Spirit’s testimony in this way, no Baptist would ever make such a claim about the SBC. Now, an evangelical might pray for wisdom to make good decisions about which church to join, but they would understand “wisdom” in this context as a sound understanding consistent with biblical principles, not as a private revelation that is independent of (or even contrary to) Scripture.
4. It does not mean that evangelicals test new revelations (or revelations new to him) by praying for a spiritual witness. When an evangelical first encounters Islam, he does not pray to know if the Qur’an is true. Nor does he seek a spiritual testimony to know if Mary Baker Eddy’s Science and Health is scripture. Nor would he pray to know if he should accept Oral Roberts or Kenneth Hagin as prophets of God. (For the record, I consider both these men to have been false prophets.) Having come into a relationship with God through his Son Jesus Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit, an evangelical puts all religious claims outside the Bible to the test of fidelity to the Bible. It doesn’t matter to us whether the claim comes from Thomas Aquinas or Thomas S. Monson. This isn’t a double standard, because we also don’t pray to know if the Bible is the word of God. Generally speaking, evangelicals accept the Bible as the word of God because it is through the New Testament (produced by Christ’s apostles and their associates) that they come to know Jesus Christ, and in turn they find in the Gospels that Jesus regarded Scripture (which at the time was the Old Testament) as the unerring word of God. Evangelicals may have ancillary apologetic arguments to defend various parts of the Bible, but our confidence in the Bible as a whole is tied to our confidence in Jesus Christ.

Now here you use NO SCRIPTURE to back up any of your points, clearly again "adding to the Word" the Doctrines of men, which the scriptures say nothing about.

You've created your own religion here, not a Biblical religion.

Further, in some of your points you act like LDS don't do the same exact thing.... Which is bearing false witness of us. For example, point 1 you act like LDS "don't" turn to got and say, hey what's the answer God.

Further, your statement is a double speak. First you say you don't pray to know if something is true, and then you say you do. Which is it? Like with all anti-mormons you are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Double standards.

Point 2, who says LDS appeal to the Holy Spirit? Again, double speak, you appeal to the Holy Spirit to testify of whatever you believe, but then you are critical of it, simply because Mormons might do the same thing.

There is a testimony of what one believes which is through the Holy Spirit, and then there is the intellectual answers and justifications of those beliefs. You act like LDS don't have intellectual answers, as if our faith also isn't based in "truth"

Point 3, bull..... They all pray to know which congregation fits what they "feel" is right for them, teaches the Gospel right, etc. Again, double standards. Pretending you don't do the same thing LDS do, when you most certainly do. Sure, some of you who are already ideologically bound to that particular man-made doctrine of not praying to find a true church don't believe it, but not people who are searching for the truth. They most certainly are searching for a "Church" that preaches God's Truths and Ways.

Point 4, again a strawman. You are speaking about someone who is already converted to Evangelicalism, as you really have all along. Of course you aren't going to pray to know if Islam is true. Mormons don't pray to know if Islam is true either. Strawman buddy! But certainly people looking for a faith will pray about the faiths they encounter, asking God which way is right, etc. And again, you go with Bibliolartry to make your judgments. A non-Biblical ideology. LDS seek after all truth from where-ever it comes, and we go to God to discern all things. Hey, now that IS actually a Biblical doctrine. Further, you act like LDS "don't" go to the scriptures to test all claims. Further, you talk of the New Testament, yet NONE of your Churches save maybe the Catholic and Orthodox Church to some degree don't even follow what the New Testament in full teaches. Thus, your appeal to the New Testament is simply malarkey. You don't actually follow it. I was in multiple of your religions for several years, and reading the Bible for myself without any bias or opinion, and I saw clearly that NONE of your religions fully practiced nor accurately believed and practiced what the New Testament actually said. It's really simple, if you aren't set up like Christ set up the Church, you haven't even a leg to stand on, let alone build a house on that is actually of God in full and in truth, without the doctrines of men mingled in.

Finally, let me draw some contrasts between the typical evangelical view, as I have described it above, and the typical Mormon view.

1. Moroni 10:4 is often cited by Mormons as an appeal to people who already believe in Christ to pray for the Holy Ghost to enable them to accept the Book of Mormon as factually true. Evangelicals reject this appeal because they don’t agree with the practice of praying for revelations of factual knowledge. Of course, evangelicals also have specific reasons for viewing the Book of Mormon as false scripture.
2. Mormons sometimes appeal to their testimony of the Holy Spirit as negating a particular objection or criticism of their beliefs. Evangelicals don’t do this, in general, because the testimony of the Holy Spirit is focused on their personal relationship with Christ and is not a general epistemological principle.
3. Mormons commonly claim to have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church on the earth today. Evangelicals reject this claim on the general principle that one does not settle the question of which version of Christianity is true by appealing to or receiving a private religious experience (even one you think is from the Holy Spirit). Again, evangelicals have various specific objections to the Mormon religious truth claims.
4. Mormons also cite Moroni 10:4 as promising that a person may know that additional revelation is from God by praying to God for a spiritual witness from the Holy Spirit. Evangelicals reject this appeal on the principle that a Christian should not pray for a private revelation or spiritual experience as to the truth of an alleged new revelation.

1. Bull.... You reject the idea when it comes to mormonism, but you most certainly do do it within your own faith. When you read the Bible, you most certainly pray about what you are reading, and ask God to enlighten your mind and soul etc. That is praying to receive revelation and truth buddy from God. Again, stop with the double standards. Again, your statement is a doctrine of man, not Biblical.

2. Bull..... Mormons only appeal to their testimony because they aren't sure how to answer an attack or question. Other Christians do the same exact thing when they don't have an immediate answer for something.

By the way, name a single mormon on this board who has answered YOU with their testimony??? Guess your claim isn't true then. Mormons also focus on their relationship with Christ when presenting the Gospel, such as the Missionary's when they are preaching it. You act like we are so different, when it's only in your own mind by misrepresenting us and mormonism.

3. So what.... We reject Evangelical claims...... Further.... Bull..... When you are researching the faith, you most certainly test the versions of Christianity, and then settle with the one you think is best.

4. Bull.... Again, you guys do the same thing when you are teaching someone the faith. You ask them to pray about what they are being taught, to pray about certain scriptures, to get revelation etc.

Double standards, double standards, and bearing false witness of mormonism. That's all you have done here. I've actually been in your religions, and actively so for several years, I know exactly what you do..... You are not being truthful, you are perverting it and perverting mormonism in order to attack mormonism and win the argument.

Bottom line..... The "process" of getting to become a believer, and the testimony that is gained, is absolutely NO DIFFERENT between us. You all do the same exact things to come to know the truth of whatever beliefs/religions claims.

Your strawman of what Evangelicals do after the fact according to Evangelical thinking and your misrepresentations of it, is not the issue.

The issue is what is different from the Mormon Holy Spirit and the Evangelical one...... The actual answer is nothing. We both go through the same process, yes, with some different scriptures, yes with some different ideology's, but the BASICS are still exactly the same. We prayerfully read the Bible, and we are then taught. Evangelicals have their way of looking at the Bible, mormons have their way. But, that's not the Holy Spirit..... that's an intellectual exercise.

The Holy Ghost is the same for all people, religious or not. The more the Holy Ghost teaches you, is by that which you come to know and understand. And the "accuracy" of it all is entirely based on the "source". Hence the need for True Prophets and Faith.

Be more polite with your responses. "Bull" is not a suitable substitute for "I disagree" or even "That is not true". -Ares

[mfbukowski]

I think at least a possible conclusion to this conundrum is that this "subjective feeling" can be explained as a product of the human mind (which Neuroscience is proving more and more every day)

Just as neuroscience causes a subjective sense of fear when a bear is chasing you?

Which causes which- does the experience cause the chemical or the chemical cause the experience in such a case?

This argument goes nowhere and proves nothing. It is circular.

[ldsfaqs]

I think atheist/agnostics make a good point. Very many different religions DESCRIBE a similar subjective experience of "knowing" that their god is communicating with them. Many EV's and Mormons among other religious followers (and even non-religious people) describe a similar experience. I think at least a possible conclusion to this conundrum is that this "subjective feeling" can be explained as a product of the human mind (which Neuroscience is proving more and more every day).

You may disagree with this conclusion, but I certainly find it to be both logically sound and rather reasonable, as well as adding a very real and different perspective to the thread (a perspective which, by the way, is more popular than Mormonism itself, according to the Pew Research Center). As such I find it a little harsh to discount it.

Your comment is essentially true..... This concept is known in the scriptures. The heart can be deceiving..... A testimony or belief must be built on the wisdom that is truth, which comes from God.

The question then becomes, who really has the most "accurate" or the accurate "truths" of God and otherwise. This is something we must all discover.

All religions have some truth to them, it's only a question of degree and accuracy. This is where the heart of the spirit plays an important role. It is the "helpmate" in determining truth, giving revelation, opening the mind, giving inspiration, etc. When I put away my anti-mormon judgments and decided to have Faith and seek out the actual truth of things, what religion was true, and the answers to certain questions when I did discover it, that Faith heading to the promptings of the Spirit is what enlightened my mind to see what was actually true and what was false, for example when I compared an anti-mormon book with an LDS scholared one on the same subject. I was able to SEE not by Faith alone, but by study also, what was actually the truth, and it was the Holy Spirit that helped make those connections. Close to the end, there was an actual moment, in which my mind actually felt like it was creating new brain cells, to understand and see the things I didn't know and see before. However, if my cup had still be full like Rob Bowman's is, I would see nothing.

Some believed Obama was the "savior" of America, he's turned out to be a destroyer. They based this judgment mostly on feelings, and very little fact, or some actually believe the deception and wrong themselves, and thus followed. Others knew he wasn't a savior but was in fact a destroyer, and warned everyone, and still do. Some listen, many do not. Clearly the "spirit" the later were listening to was actually the truth, because their judgments were based on the truth, Obama's own words, his associations before and now, his actions, etc.

Spiritual impressions not based on the FULL TRUTH are going to be "perverted" impressions, thus of the devil.

Obviously, not saying that everyone is following the devil in everything they believe. Everyone has degrees of truth and falsehood in them. It is thus key to find out "which" has little to none falsehood in them, and all truth.

That "way" is and can only be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've tested it fully, and objectively to all others. Other's such as Rob Bowman, test with their minds already made up, their glasses are full, and they can't receive any more revelation. Just like above. Bowman misrepresent our faith multiple times and even his own in order to attack our position. He does not live in the rhelm of truth. He thinks he does, but he is learned and thinks he is wise..... when he simply isn't for many things, but especially his target of contempt.

Edited August 20, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[jo1952]

as the only repository of truth,

Hi Deborah,

CFR please.

Thank you,

jo

[jo1952]

I appreciate your opinion. Normally I wouldn’t go into this kind of detail regarding the subject, but I've told other people for a while, and perhaps its time to give a little more of my experiences.

I've had discussions with stake presidents, and even one G.A. about what it feels like when one has had his or her membership taken away or had their records removed. Why this is significant is because church members truly believe that the Holy Ghost is given as a constant companion at the confirmation blessing after baptism. Although I am a member now, I will tell you the experience of this convert joining the church at 15 years old, then leaving it 15 years later, and then rejoining it a few years after that. Having my records remove and becoming a non-member was probably one of the biggest mistakes I have made. I suppose it was easier for me to consider leaving the church, because my family is all non-members. I didn’t have any true family pressure to stay a member plus I felt like I already had a pretty good relationship with Heavenly Father that I had gained as a Christian before I was 15 years old. So, when things got tough, and some local leaders did some pretty questionable things (which have been reported to a G.A.) during a time of great tragedy in my life, and after a lot of thought, I sent in my letter.

I always thought I would have the same feelings and connection that I had before - I had complete faith in myself that I would. But the when my records were removed I will tell you that I felt a piece of my spiritual self was gone - like a light switch that was turned off. In fact, I don’t think people realize, especially members of the LDS church, just how interconnected we are to the knowledge, inspiration, and answers to prayers because of the gift of the Holy Ghost. In fact, I actually got the impression that there are definite personalities on the other side of the veil that are assigned to us. In a way, I suppose they act a lot like Home Teachers to us. When my records were removed, I had every intention of feeling joy. But instead, I had a final spiritual experience from one of those who was a steward in my life from the other side. I felt his sorrow and his disappointment in himself for not figuring out how to do more in my situation. Of course, it wasn’t his fault at all, it was mine. Ironically, the day I became a non-member, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the church was true.

It took years to get back. In many ways I was still being blessed financially because the personal tragedy that I was going through. I was blessed with many friends and I had a wonderfully popular business that was both profitable and rewarding. These blessings I was getting helped me get through the tragedy. And there were definite times that I felt the Holy Ghost on more than one occasion. But for the most part, I was alone spiritually, yet quite popular in every other way. I’m sure Satan was trying to throw as much worldly money, fun and friends at me to keep me a non-member. However, after you have had the spirit removed from your life, it does something to you, after having felt that. I suppose it’s a lot like losing a loved one, or having a member of your family die. You get used to having it around, and don’t realize what it does for you, and the direction it gives – I suppose a person thinks all that is coming from themselves. Then, all of the sudden after years of having it..... It turns off. I suppose people can feel anger at that kind of loss. They may even curse God, start a new church or constantly looking for truth in strange places. Some will find pieces of it, but they will not have the fullness of it until they are members again. Perhaps I was lucky to never blame Heavenly Father for my own stupidity. It was my fault, and I never stopped praying to get it back. And he did find a way for me to get back - It was a long way back, and more painful than the original tragedy in my life.

Now, 10 years later after being re-baptized, I feel even closer to Heavenly Father than ever before. And I have a new outlook on people who do things a bit contrary to their callings - especially Bishops and Home Teachers. It’s simply this.... I am here to be the best person I can be. That means most of the time I fail, and you are an example to me. But, once in a while, when you fail, that means that I am an example to you. And if my example is the only reason why I am here, my duty as a member of Christ's church is fulfilled; even when my example of how not to be is seen by all. If that helps anyone, then I freely give it.

There has been no greater joy in my life than being a member of this church and taking a part in it - sometimes officially, sometimes unofficially. Some may ask …. “Have I been rewarded for coming back?” Absolutely! I have had the privilege of feeling the love that he has for me, and feeling all of my sins just vanish along with the guilt and pain of the few years of being away. He has blessed me with the knowledge of my future, and my past. He has told me of my short comings, and how to overcome them. Is there any greater love than the love of God for his children? I ask you, what would it be like to feel, have it witnessed to you, the actual Celestial love he has for you while being in a mortal body? Perhaps I have earned this knowledge, perhaps more likely, I share some micro-fragment of commonality in our personal tragedies – Only he didn’t give up. In the end, it was him not giving up that allowed me to come back. Perhaps I haven’t earned a thing. Perhaps I owe my life to him.

Messenger:

What a privilege and blessing to be able to read what you have shared! "Thank you" is way too deficient. Once again, my cup runneth over!

Love,

jo

[blueadept]

I think this is the key. I know many non-LDS who have very firm testimonies of Jesus Christ. They are wonderful people. But they are limited by the lack of Priesthood and ordinances. That to me is the purpose of the church, not so much as the only repository of truth, but the arm of the Lord which blesses the world and enables his people to get those ordinances necessary for exaltation.

As a Catholic, we also believe we have the priesthood authority. As I was listening to testimonies of the 5 youth in the church with 1500 other folks jammed into it, they seemed to cover it all of how Jesus stepped into their lives during their worst of times. One covered his drug addiction, another about her porn addiction growing up, one about her financial issues in being here and another being persecuted in their country for trying to practice their faith. A few of them referred to the sacraments (ordinances) that have brought them back to Christ in their journey. Moving stuff.

There are 428,000 Catholic youths registered with an anticipated 1.5 million that should be in attendance tonight and tomorrow with the Pope in Madrid. If that's not witnessing Christ, I don't know what does. Of course if you check the news, all you see is the 5000 protesters that gathered and not much about the 1.5 million youths that are here witnessing Christ with the Pope. I'm getting use to groups walking by our hotel at midnight still screaming, we love Jesus. A cool experience for sure.

Edited August 20, 2011 by blueadept

[Messenger]

Were you anti-mormon and anti-religion also when you left the Church? I was to a degree, then humbled myself and did some "true" objective study and comparison.

I wouldn’t say that I was anti-religion. I would say that the poor actions of a few who were both home teachers and bishops led me to blinding myself to the overall fact that the church was true. I left the church so that I could be closer to what I thought was truth. No doubt that my untreated and undiagnosed ADHD had a huge role in this. But, while I was away, I will tell you that I prayed daily, and I was never anti-religion or anti-God. Perhaps I was more disappointed in the religions of man, and certainly disappointed in the actions of those that professed to be religious. But I always believed in God and Jesus Christ.

It wasn’t until the end of my two year absence that I realized that our role as members is also to be an example to others, even bishops and home teachers; in fact, it is our calling to be so. Our source of truth, is vast. Leaving that source over the stupidity of others is even more stupid.

Further, I had to learn to forgive the stupidity of others first in order to be forgiven. I will tell you that a person with ADHD often has difficulty with this concept. We can become hyper focused on what we see is wrong. We normally have multiple things going on at the same time both in our minds and our actions. Then once in a while the switch to hyper focus, the focus on one thing for days or more can be relentless. If this happens at a crucial moment in life, and one does not understand it or know how to deal with it, it can lead us and those who have ADHD to be hypercritical of the actions of others without seeing the bigger picture. Now that I am being treated, I have the intelligence to understand my condition, even recognize it when it is playing out.

I would have to pretty much agree with your analysis, but add one little clarification.

The Priesthood Authority and the Gift of the Holy Ghost makes ALL the difference. Both are the power to both "know" of an assurity, and "proclaim" of an assurity God's actual truths.

Without those two powers, we are just men on our own making our "best guesses" as to God's truth, gaining only glimpses of the Holy Ghost.

When one is acting under the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Name of God and by the Power of His Priesthood, pure unadulterated revelation flows. While humans can still make mistakes, it flows so freely that as a collective of Saints, the full truth is sustained and manifested, while human weakness just falls away.

Without those two powers, men gain and take power unto themselves, they begin to corrupt the purity, the pure source, hence the Apostasy.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, The authority of the Priesthood and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are the two things that make the difference between other religions and the LDS religion.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Messenger

[Deborah]

As a Catholic, we also believe we have the priesthood authority.

Yes, but believing you have Priesthood authority and actually having it are two different things.

[Deborah]

CFR please.

CFR what? I don't understand what you want as it is a long taught truth in the church that truth can be found in many places. But authority and true doctrine are different matters.

[Deborah]

Since evangelicals vary among themselves in their doctrinal understanding of such questions, I cannot rule out that some evangelicals may think about the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a way that is analogous to the Mormon testimony of the Holy Ghost to the Book of Mormon. However, in general, I think the two views are quite dissimilar in some important respects.

Which is the point many of us have been making about the difference between a LDS conversion and an evangelical conversion. Before becoming LDS I never doubted Christ was our Savior or the Bible was true. I didn't have to receive a spiritual confirmation because it's simply something that was. However, when I found the LDS church the manifestation of the Spirit was so powerful it has kept me connected even through times of doubt and questioning. But then having a testimony of Christ is part of any Christian belief, as it is in the LDS church. However, when it comes to finding the church with authority to act in the name of Christ that is a different matter.

[Senator]

Yes, but believing you have Priesthood authority and actually having it are two different things.

Of course, had blueadept made that statement to you, it would be equally valid.

[Deborah]

Of course, had blueadept made that statement to you, it would be equally valid.

Of course. So as the old saying goes either the Catholics are right or the Mormons are. They are the only ones who claim some line of true Priesthood authority.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Deborah

[Rob Bowman]

ldsfaq wrote:

Point 3, bull.....

Point 4, again a strawman.... Strawman buddy! ...Thus, your appeal to the New Testament is simply malarkey....

1. Bull....

2. Bull.....

3. So what....

4. Bull....

You are not being truthful....

I attempted to report this post to the moderators, but the system timed out and I have no way of verifying that the report was sent. So, I am bringing attention to it here to make sure. I believe that such rudeness, belittling, and accusation of lying are contrary to board policy.

Please give the moderators the same courtesy of being patient that you expect in having time to check in and give a reply. - Ares

[jo1952]

CFR what? I don't understand what you want as it is a long taught truth in the church that truth can be found in many places. But authority and true doctrine are different matters.

Hi Deborah!

I am glad that you have made a clarification of your comment. I didn't think you really believed that truth is stored only in the Church or offered only by the Church....whew. No church can claim exclusivity to all truth.

Love,

jo

[Storm Rider]

Of course. So as the old saying goes either the Catholics are right or the Mormons are. They are the only ones who claim some line of true Priesthood authority.

The more I study this the more I have concluded that we will all be very surprised how this all turns out. Apostolic authority certainly has a good ring to it; just as good as the restored church of Jesus Christ. The evolution into a unity of the faith will be fascinating. I suspect that people on all sides will be surprised at how it comes to pass.

Pure religion is a thing very different from what most of us consider as we lead our daily lives. I pray for the day that all those who stand for Christ will unite together as one.

[CV75]

1. Moroni 10:4 is often cited by Mormons as an appeal to people who already believe in Christ to pray for the Holy Ghost to enable them to accept the Book of Mormon as factually true. Evangelicals reject this appeal because they don’t agree with the practice of praying for revelations of factual knowledge. Of course, evangelicals also have specific reasons for viewing the Book of Mormon as false scripture.
2. Mormons sometimes appeal to their testimony of the Holy Spirit as negating a particular objection or criticism of their beliefs. Evangelicals don’t do this, in general, because the testimony of the Holy Spirit is focused on their personal relationship with Christ and is not a general epistemological principle.
3. Mormons commonly claim to have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church on the earth today. Evangelicals reject this claim on the general principle that one does not settle the question of which version of Christianity is true by appealing to or receiving a private religious experience (even one you think is from the Holy Spirit). Again, evangelicals have various specific objections to the Mormon religious truth claims.
4. Mormons also cite Moroni 10:4 as promising that a person may know that additional revelation is from God by praying to God for a spiritual witness from the Holy Spirit. Evangelicals reject this appeal on the principle that a Christian should not pray for a private revelation or spiritual experience as to the truth of an alleged new revelation.

This is not only true of the evangelicals you characterize here.

1. Anyone who equates factual knowledge with spiritual knowledge is not spiritually inclined.

2. Anyone who attempts to sustain a relationship without knowledge is ignorant of how relationships work, and can sustain only ignorant relationships.

3. Anyone that does not settle the question of which version of Christianity is true by appealing to or receiving a private religious experience simply hasn’t found the question to be important enough.

4. Anyone that feels or reasons that he should not pray for divine guidance (a private revelation or spiritual experience) simply lacks the interest to do so, or lacks a fuller personal relationship with God.

Sometimes these things are done in ignorance, sometimes in pride. In either case, the Light of Christ calls upon all God's children to move forward in developing a fuller relationship with God through the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. Everyone responds in their own way, at their own pace, and sometimes not in the way God wants them to.

Edited August 20, 2011 by CV75

[jo1952]

I would say there is not difference. Both EV and Mormons come from a position of faith. Both are looking for some kind of spiritual witness. Both will most likely get an answer that confirms to what they already believe or want to be true. The same methods are use so I would expect the same result.

I would agree that both EV's and LDS come from a position of faith; without exercising faith there can be no witness received from the Holy Ghost. I think the difference which the EV do not recognize, is that most converts to the LDS Church (not to be confused with the person's conversion who is already LDS), have already been saved. IOW, they have already exercised faith and believe in Jesus Christ. What the Church offers, is additional truth, additional latter-day revelation, another Testament of Christ, an understanding as well as the reality of Priesthood Authority; an understanding of and a ability to participate in the ordicances while stilll in this life which can help us gain exaltation; IOW, a real Restoration of the Gospel message, as opposed to a Reformed version. I even will offer a REASON the EV do not recognize this. They have been taught to fear us through all of the anti-LDS propaganda that has surrounded the Church even before it was established, as it also followed Joseph Smith from the time he was just a boy.

Their opinion and ideas about the LDS Church are unavoidably filtered through preconceived notions. One of the biggest warnings an anti-LDS person will give to another Christian is to don't allow the Missionaries to get you to pray with them or to pray about the Book of Mormon, as you will receive a false witness. IOW, they convey and perpetuate their own fears.

Notice that in the video, how William Lane Craig is supporting the concept of occasionally taking a doubt (unanswered question) out of your doubt bag and to study, ponder and pray about it until you have received some type of answer. However, later in the thread we find out that if that question involves praying about the Book of Mormon, he backtracks his comments and starts qualifying what exactly you should or should not pray to find out about; fear is his motivation for altering his own previous advice. He learned that fear from man's precepts. This is evidence that he does not trust the very Holy Ghost who witnessed to him concerning Christ, to protect him in further matters concerning the Kingdom of God. Thus he shuts the door to the very Being whose responsibility and ability it is to lead him to all truth. How incredibly sad!!!

Then I read Rob Bowman's comments about how an EV will NOT pray about certain things. It all appears to be a bunch of double speak to me.

I have been told many different things by EV's and other anti-LDS who have learned my conversion story from the Lutheran to the LDS Church. Even though I was raised Lutheran, nor can I remember a time when I didn't love Christ or my Heavenly Father, I have heard such things as: 1) I had never been saved, or I would never have let an orthodox denomination; 2) I was saved; but now I am unsaved and a heretic; 3) For 22 years I only thought I was a Christian; therefore, 4) For 22 years I had never prayed to the one True God and never believed in or loved the real Jesus Christ; to, 5) At the very moment I opened my mouth to pray about the Book of Mormon, the Holy Ghost left me and a demonic spirit entered my body.

Best regards,

jo

[Deborah]

I am glad that you have made a clarification of your comment. I didn't think you really believed that truth is stored only in the Church or offered only by the Church....whew. No church can claim exclusivity to all truth.

Ok, I can see how you got confused. What I meant was that some criticize us for claiming to be the only true church but that doesn't mean we are the only source of truth. The church was established so the Lord could administer his saving covenants and ordinances to the world and in turn clarify doctrine and gather truth from all sources and build on it. So in a sense the church is the repository (storehouse) of truth but certainly not the only source.

The church doesn't get into the truths of science or math but encourages students to study these things. As a result we have many people in the church who have made innovations and discoveries in those fields. Joseph Smith himself, even as a prophet, established a school so that he and others could learn Hebrew and other subjects that would expand on what they already had. I have personally found many truths about the human condition in literature. So yes we are to seek truth wherever it may be found and it helps to have the foundation of the Gospel to best use these truths.

[jo1952]

Which is the point many of us have been making about the difference between a LDS conversion and an evangelical conversion. Before becoming LDS I never doubted Christ was our Savior or the Bible was true. I didn't have to receive a spiritual confirmation because it's simply something that was. However, when I found the LDS church the manifestation of the Spirit was so powerful it has kept me connected even through times of doubt and questioning. But then having a testimony of Christ is part of any Christian belief, as it is in the LDS church. However, when it comes to finding the church with authority to act in the name of Christ that is a different matter.

Hi Deborah,

Exactly!! We have already been converted to Christ! Therefore, praying about the Book of Mormon is NOT for the purpose of exercising faith in Christ...it is part of the "due diligence" (if you will), of doing the testing RECOMMENDED and TAUGHT in the Bible on how to determine if something you are being taught is false or not.

Best regards,

jo

[jo1952]

As a Catholic, we also believe we have the priesthood authority. As I was listening to testimonies of the 5 youth in the church with 1500 other folks jammed into it, they seemed to cover it all of how Jesus stepped into their lives during their worst of times. One covered his drug addiction, another about her porn addiction growing up, one about her financial issues in being here and another being persecuted in their country for trying to practice their faith. A few of them referred to the sacraments (ordinances) that have brought them back to Christ in their journey. Moving stuff.

There are 428,000 Catholic youths registered with an anticipated 1.5 million that should be in attendance tonight and tomorrow with the Pope in Madrid. If that's not witnessing Christ, I don't know what does. Of course if you check the news, all you see is the 5000 protesters that gathered and not much about the 1.5 million youths that are here witnessing Christ with the Pope. I'm getting use to groups walking by our hotel at midnight still screaming, we love Jesus. A cool experience for sure.

Hi Blueadept,

What a truly edifying experience that should be for you. Please keep us posted!!

Best regards,

jo

[jo1952]

Ok, I can see how you got confused. What I meant was that some criticize us for claiming to be the only true church but that doesn't mean we are the only source of truth. The church was established so the Lord could administer his saving covenants and ordinances to the world and in turn clarify doctrine and gather truth from all sources and build on it. So in a sense the church is the repository (storehouse) of truth but certainly not the only source.

The church doesn't get into the truths of science or math but encourages students to study these things. As a result we have many people in the church who have made innovations and discoveries in those fields. Joseph Smith himself, even as a prophet, established a school so that he and others could learn Hebrew and other subjects that would expand on what they already had. I have personally found many truths about the human condition in literature. So yes we are to seek truth wherever it may be found and it helps to have the foundation of the Gospel to best use these truths.

Hi Deborah!

Exactly! We are blessed in that we have the Priesthood Authority to receive the Holy Ghost as a constant companion by the laying on of hands (if we remain a worthy Tabernacle for Him to dwell with us). Yet, it is still the Holy Ghost who leads to all truth; regardless of what church a person belongs to. He is a gift to the whole earth - not just to the LDS Church.

Love,

jo

[Messenger]

I think at least a possible conclusion to this conundrum is that this "subjective feeling" can be explained as a product of the human mind (which Neuroscience is proving more and more every day).

You may think that, but without experience all you have is a theory. The physical world we live in is very interconnected with God's direction, influence and will. The feeling we get is the affirmation of spiritual truth being made manifest in us. It’s not a randomly generated pulse of neurons that make someone feel good. Its a pattern of truth which builds upon itself so much so that it creates faith in those that are guided by it.

I would say to those that try and use science to explain something that is not a part of the elemental world we live in, does not make sense. Can you explain the love you have for your mother in a scientific way? Does that mean it does not exist? Would it be far fetched to think that we have a Heavenly Father that shares our feeling of love of family?

Further, the power of the Priesthood is real. It is the ability to control the physical world for God's purposes. And when God's purposes are important enough to change the elemental world we live in, in a supernatural way, we sometimes are given the ability to share in that change. For everything the LDS church is, temples, organization and yes, miracles, are derived from God's influence here on earth. It’s only natural that he would allow those that are faithful to him, those that are directed by him, to be a part of his influence.

We welcome you to test the pattern too and experiment with his word. What have you got to lose?

[altersteve]

Mormons also cite Moroni 10:4 as promising that a person may know that additional revelation is from God by praying to God for a spiritual witness from the Holy Spirit. Evangelicals reject this appeal on the principle that a Christian should not pray for a private revelation or spiritual experience as to the truth of an alleged new revelation.

It's not exactly as simple as you seem to make it. We don't just "ask God if it's true." There are conditions that God sets for revealing knowledge to us. We must have "real intent" with "faith in Christ" in order for it to work, and God knows very well if we do or do not have these things. Also be aware that Latter-day Saints (or at least myself) have no problem believing that God may inspire someone to join another church. We believe that Islam, for example, is a religion that was founded by a man who God raised up for His own purposes, and if He wants to inspire one of us to join Islam, then He does it in His wisdom and for our own benefit.

But the fact is, you greatly misunderstand the LDS position. It's not enough to "ask God," and it's not simply a "burning in the bosom" or a "warm fuzzy feeling" as some critics like to claim. We must examine the Church, examine the teachings of the prophets, and examine the message of the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures that Jesus is the Christ, and then ask God with a sincere desire to obtain that knowledge that He desires to give you; and this desire cannot be there without a solid faith in the Savior and His Atonement. From there comes a deeper testimony, which comes gradually, of Jesus Christ and His Church. We must come to know Jesus Christ as our Savior, not just that He is our Savior. As Christ explained in John 17, that is how we obtain eternal life, how we become one with Him: by obtaining knowledge of God and of His Son, and it's much more than to just know they exist or even that they love us. We must love them back; we must know them on a personal level, and such a relationship does not come instantly, like I said: it comes with time, line by line, precept upon precept, by study and by faith. And true knowledge comes from God alone, and we take that very literally. We believe that we can ask God directly, and that He will answer us directly via personal revelation, and that may come in many forms. But however that witness comes, it is a revelation from Heavenly Father, and Christ said very clearly that revelation from His Father is the rock upon which His Church is to be built, and when that rock disappeared, when Christians began interpreting scripture without the influence of the Holy Spirit, that was when His Church began to disappear. That fact that you criticize such a belief, especially since it is perfectly in line with what Jesus and all the other prophets have taught, shows how ignorant you are of the gospel that we preach and live.

Edited August 20, 2011 by altersteve

[jmordecai]

The LDS (burning of bosom), the EV (internal dwelling of the Holy Spirit), the Muslim (Sufism), the Buddhist (Nirvana), the Hindu (Moksha), etc., all claim to have spiritual experiences.

We can conclude that all spiritual experiences are false, but all cannot be equally true. If we accept the notion that one amongst the crowd is true, then the rest are counterfeits.

Now, if we make the witness itself the sole authenticator of which religion is true, then we have no way to arbitrate which religion is true, as we can get a witness in any religion.

This is like saying “I know my gold is real because look at the joy it gives me!” All who possess gold (religion) may experience joy (witness). But the only joy that counts in the end is the one who possesses the genuine gold (the real religion from amongst the imposters).

So how does a bystander determine what religion is true? By examining the gold (the truth claims about the religion)... not by experiencing the joy (the experiential claims from the religion).

This is why a witness is a byproduct of a religion, but it is not the sole verity of it. Take Christianity, it rests on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Either it happened (adding evidence to its truth claims) or it didn’t (and the whole thing is false)—irrespective of whatever personal feelings I experience. That Christ was resurrected does not rest upon whatever feelings I may or may not possess. The same with Mormonism: either Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ and Moroni, and the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient text... or the whole thing is false. The Book of Mormon must be true of itself, with or without any feelings we have over it.

Edited August 20, 2011 by jmordecai

[Storm Rider]

This is why a witness is a byproduct of a religion, but it is not the sole verity of it. Take Christianity, it rests on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Either it happened (adding evidence to its truth claims) or it didn’t (and the whole thing is false)—irrespective of whatever personal feelings I experience. That Christ was resurrected does not rest upon whatever feelings I may or may not possess.

Viola, and they said Pharisees died out. Take that philosphy and twist into any pretzel you wish. For for those who seek to have no belief there is a host other beings that will have them. You make me think of a scripture in Eph 6:12 "For we ^awrestle not ^bagainst ^cflesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the ^drulers of the ^edarkness of this world, against spiritual ^fwickedness in high places."

Friend, may you find peace in the h*** that you create.