What Distinguishes The Evangelical Witness Vs. Lds Testimony

[jmordecai]

Jmordecai- excuse me if I'm mistaken but it sounds like you have been treated with intolerence by a Latter-day Saint. I hope that is not true but if it is I am sorry to hear that.

It is a basic tennant of our faith (in fact in our Cannonized Articles of Faith) that:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

It is my hope that all Latter-day Saints would remember this doctrine and never engage in the kind of tearing down of other faiths we have been subjected to ourself. Being human I know it can happen- but I for one remind my fellow believers that it is not Christlike to do so.

DaddyG,

What do we do with these statements?

Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 6:25

The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall and what they shall not believe in. Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

[KevinG]

What do you do when a person claims the Holy Ghost told them the LDS church is false?

This is not a hypothetical for me. I've had this told me by close friends and even lapsed members of my priesthood quorums who I had stewardship to lead and teach.

I do exactly as I've said above. While telling them my experience with revelation is different from theirs, I tell them to worship according to the dictates of their conscience and I will support them.

It has also been my experience that many of those asking to know if the LDS Church is false also struggle under other burdens that can make it difficult for them to be a part of the covenants required of a Latter-day Saint. For some not believing is a relief from obligations and commitments they struggled to keep.

Again I ask you to consider the fact that there are no LDS sponsored ministries to root out and debunk other religions or their beliefs. It is a shame some others cannot be as open minded or supportive of those who differ from them.

[jmordecai]

This is not a hypothetical for me. I've had this told me by close friends and even lapsed members of my priesthood quorums who I had stewardship to lead and teach.

Doesn't this debunk the notion that the Holy Ghost is the source of all testimonies, witnesses and spiritual experiences?

Again I ask you to consider the fact that there are no LDS sponsored ministries to root out and debunk other religions or their beliefs.

I beg to differ. The entire existence of the LDS church is based on the notion that true Christianity suffered an apostasy sometime after the twelve apostles died. Your statement can only be true if you recant the notion that the LDS church is "the only one true church".

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

What do we do with these statements?

Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 6:25

The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall and what they shall not believe in. Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

Put them in context.

Context of the times (polemics of 19th centry preachers)

Context of the situation (violence and opposition against the LDS a the hands of Christians)

Context of the persons (Brigham and John Taylor were fiery preachers)

Context of the doctrines (the Journal of Discourses are useful but not doctrinal)

Context of the whole.

Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 6:25

Was said in the context of a sermon that addressed the rough handling of the Saints by governments and religions. The whole can be found here http://www.journalof....org/volume-06/

The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

which includes Brighams definition of heathen as "According to my definition of the word, a people are heathenish that do not know things as they ought." The context of which can be found here http://www.journalof....org/volume-08/

With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

Was the end of a story where a person of another Christian religion claimed that there was a 51st chapter of Genesis to support a non-biblical claim. The whole of the context can be found here http://www.journalof....org/volume-08/

What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall and what they shall not believe in. Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

This last one is appropriate for our discussion and is contained in this context:

"Who can tell things pertaining to our heavenly existence, or the object God had in view for creating this and other worlds, and the destiny of the human family? No man, except God reveals it to him. What has been and still is the position of the world in relation to these things? It has been governed by every kind of dogma and theory of religion. “Isms” of every kind have prevailed in turn—polytheism, infidelity, Christianity in its ten thousand forms, and every kind of theory and dogma that the human imagination could invent. Such contrarieties show definitely and positively that men, by wisdom, cannot find out God. And Christianity, at the present time, is no more enlightened than other systems have been. What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall and what they shall not believe in." The whole of which can be found here: http://www.journalof....org/volume-13/

If you are going to cherry pick don't forget the tree.

Edited to use a more neutral host for the JOD and not an anti-mormon ministry.

Edited August 21, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

Doesn't this debunk the notion that the Holy Ghost is the source of all testimonies, witnesses and spiritual experiences?

No.

I beg to differ. The entire existence of the LDS church is based on the notion that true Christianity suffered an apostasy sometime after the twelve apostles died. Your statement can only be true if you recant the notion that the LDS church is "the only one true church".

I can believe my faith is correct (or more correct) than others without denying them any light from God at all. You present a false dilemna. Your arguments also ignore my point that our doctrines afford others courtesy to believe as they may and our practices do not seek to inhibit them.

oh, and the entire existance of the LDS Church is based on the fact that God lives, His Son Jesus Christ is our Savior and that He speaks to us today through living prophets. The one line in the Joseph Smith History that refers to the sects of the day as being incorrect and an abomination is just that. One line among thousands of lines of doctrine and revelation that agree more with other Chrisitan faiths than they disagree.

I really encourage you to go to an LDS source to find out what we believe instead of playing gotcha with anti-mormon sources and out of context quotes.

Edited August 21, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

Heh. I just linked Mormon Research Ministries for the Journal of Discourses transcriptions. Is that allowed? Or is there a freindlier LDS source for those documents?

Found it: http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/volume-06/

While the anti-mormon ministry site is easier to index I'm not giving them traffic. There I just admitted a non-mormon source is doing something better than the LDS. Does that invalidate the entire LDS Church? (for those who are sarcastically challenged that last comment was in jest.)

Edited August 21, 2011 by DaddyG

[LeSellers]

I just linked Mormon Research Ministries for the Journal of Discourses transcriptions. ... Or is there a freindlier LDS source for those documents?

BYU has one, and I believe there are several other sources.

Lehi

[KevinG]

BYU has one, and I believe there are several other sources.

Lehi

Thanks! I found one and cleaned up my mess.

[Messenger]

The two big differences between evangelist Christians beliefs and LDS is listed below….

1) The Christian Evangelist believes in revelation, and even having spiritual experiences, like the LDS. For example, they believe that when one is Born Again, they’ve had an experience that changes their previous understanding of Jesus Christ.

2) LDS believe in the above, but also in the gift of the Holy Ghost, a promise when faithful to have it as a constant companion. This gift is given by LDS priesthood authority after baptism.

The big difference between the two is that both believe that revelation comes to all, the LDS believe it can be a part of a more subtle direction and even daily answers to prayers that would not necessarily be a fundamental change of heart, but more of steering the direction of ones daily life.

1) The LDS believe the church must be well organized to fulfill its mission. Therefore, not only are individual members encouraged to seek answers to prayers for their own direction, the church leadership is a steward or shepherd of the LDS membership. The LDS believe that authority to act for the church comes from direct authority handed down over time.

2) The Christian Evangelist religion places most emphasis on personal relationship with Jesus Christ, rather than any authority, or stewardship that may assist them when needed or guide the body of the church in authority. I would say that most evangelist believe their relationship is directly with Jesus Christ rather than an apostle, or bishop.

I used to be born again Christian, and so is my family. I understand that I am not allowed to give direct experiences as they relate to the two above subjects and the OP. So, simply reduced to the facts at hand, this forum seems a lot more like a scientific forum rather than an LDS one.

Sorry if I digressed too much. I hate it when the spirit wants me to bear my testimony and members are offended. I’d be happy to be excommunicated from this forum if you need me to be. Just give the word.

Mark

Edited August 21, 2011 by Messenger

[jo1952]

This is all fine and dandy, but it presumes that the LDS witness, testimony, experience, etc., is true. How do you know its more true that the same premonitions, promptings, feelings, etc., other religious folks experience?

Hi Mordecai:

If you read my words carefully, you will see no indication that one person's witness is any more true than another's. We all receive the truth we are capable of bearing. When I was Lutheran I used to receive witnesses from the Holy Ghost. That is how I was able to recognize that it was also the Holy Ghost who was witnessing to me when I found the Church. Now, I had never even heard of the LDS Church until I was in my early 20's, so I never prayed about the LDS Church or the Book of Mormon. Therefore, since I wasn't asking about the LDS Church, I didn't receive any witnesses about it.

What do you base this argument on?

Here are a few passages from the Bible:

John 16:12-14

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

and,

1 John 5:6-9 (emphasis added)

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

and,

1 Corinthians 12:3 (emphasis added)

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Best regards,

jo

[KevinG]

The two big differences between evangelist Christians beliefs and LDS is listed below….

1) The Christian Evangelist believes in revelation, and even having spiritual experiences, like the LDS. For example, they believe that when one is Born Again, they’ve had an experience that changes their previous understanding of Jesus Christ.

2) LDS believe in the above, but also in the gift of the Holy Ghost, a promise when faithful to have it as a constant companion. This gift is given by LDS priesthood authority after baptism.

The big difference between the two is that both believe that revelation comes to all, the LDS believe it can be a part of a more subtle direction and even daily answers to prayers that would not necessarily be a fundamental change of heart, but more of steering the direction of ones daily life.

1) The LDS believe the church must be well organized to fulfill its mission. Therefore, not only are individual members encouraged to seek answers to prayers for their own direction, the church leadership is a steward or shepherd of the LDS membership. The LDS believe that authority to act for the church comes from direct authority handed down over time.

2) The Christian Evangelist religion places most emphasis on personal relationship with Jesus Christ, rather than any authority, or stewardship that may assist them when needed or guide the body of the church in authority. I would say that most evangelist believe their relationship is directly with Jesus Christ rather than an apostle, or bishop.

I used to be born again Christian, and so is my family. I understand that I am not allowed to give direct experiences as they relate to the two above subjects and the OP. So, simply reduced to the facts at hand, this forum seems a lot more like a scientific forum rather than an LDS one.

Sorry if I digressed too much. I hate it when the spirit wants me to bear my testimony and members are offended. I’d be happy to be excommunicated from this forum if you need me to be. Just give the word.

Mark

I started this thread and find your information very useful and on topic. Thank you!

[blueadept]

Yes, but believing you have Priesthood authority and actually having it are two different things.

Such an ecumenical response... I KNOW WHO HAS IT and I belong to it. Does that help. I know we agree to disagree on this point but what's the point? I'm witnessing Christ among the 1.5 million youths that are in Madrid.

It was 102 deg F with 35% humidity yesterday. Normally if you put that many youths together in one place, there's more skin showing than there should be. I think I saw 5 bikini tops among the hundreds of thousands of youths. Modesty was definitely the code. Seeing all the priests and nuns in their habits among the youths may have been a factor though... The youths didn't seem to mind the fire trucks driving by and hosing them down as well...

[Storm Rider]

Such an ecumenical response... I KNOW WHO HAS IT and I belong to it. Does that help. I know we agree to disagree on this point but what's the point? I'm witnessing Christ among the 1.5 million youths that are in Madrid.

It was 102 deg F with 35% humidity yesterday. Normally if you put that many youths together in one place, there's more skin showing than there should be. I think I saw 5 bikini tops among the hundreds of thousands of youths. Modesty was definitely the code. Seeing all the priests and nuns in their habits among the youths may have been a factor though... The youths didn't seem to mind the fire trucks driving by and hosing them down as well...

Those youth day events have to be pretty incredible for all who attend. It is particularly great when the youth themselves reflect such high standards of morality, faith, and integrity.

I hope you may have the chance to visit Santiago de Compostela before coming home. Better yet would be able to walk that pilgrimage the last 100 km with the youth you came with. I know without past planning it is nearly impossible, but they are good wishes for you and them.

Thank you for making taking the time to serve those youth,

[blueadept]

Those youth day events have to be pretty incredible for all who attend. It is particularly great when the youth themselves reflect such high standards of morality, faith, and integrity.

I hope you may have the chance to visit Santiago de Compostela before coming home. Better yet would be able to walk that pilgrimage the last 100 km with the youth you came with. I know without past planning it is nearly impossible, but they are good wishes for you and them.

Thank you for making taking the time to serve those youth,

Thank you Storm Rider for your kind post...it's appreciated. After 13 days with the youth in experiencing Portugal and Fatima as well as Madrid with a lot of youth of the world, I believe the youth leaders and chaperones are on our last legs, but it has been a great spiritual experience.

We did see the Santiago de Compostela and walked the last part with the pilgrims. I give the entire World Youth Day event high grades except for the big final event. I give blame to the coordinators of the final get-together. We end the festivities with a friendly soccer game amongst the European club superstars. I'm looking forward to it. Then onto Barcelona for a day before heading home.....YEAH

[Storm Rider]

Thank you Storm Rider for your kind post...it's appreciated. After 13 days with the youth in experiencing Portugal and Fatima as well as Madrid with a lot of youth of the world, I believe the youth leaders and chaperones are on our last legs, but it has been a great spiritual experience.

We did see the Santiago de Compostela and walked the last part with the pilgrims. I give the entire World Youth Day event high grades except for the big final event. I give blame to the coordinators of the final get-together. We end the festivities with a friendly soccer game amongst the European club superstars. I'm looking forward to it. Then onto Barcelona for a day before heading home.....YEAH

Wow, you guys have packed a lot into your trip! The Sagrada Familia is a incredible cathedral to see. You should all enjoy Barcelona; it is one of the world's great cities. I would like to see similar events for LDS youth. As time progresses I think major events where the world becomes the stage for a message from the prophet will become necessary. General Conference seems to be more focused on the LDS people rather than messages to the world, but that may only be my perspective. I admire where the pope often speaks on behalf of all Christianity to the world at large.

[blueadept]

Wow, you guys have packed a lot into your trip! The Sagrada Familia is a incredible cathedral to see. You should all enjoy Barcelona; it is one of the world's great cities. I would like to see similar events for LDS youth. As time progresses I think major events where the world becomes the stage for a message from the prophet will become necessary. General Conference seems to be more focused on the LDS people rather than messages to the world, but that may only be my perspective. I admire where the pope often speaks on behalf of all Christianity to the world at large.

There was a display here in Madrid in the park where many events took place that explained the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. There was about a dozen 50' x 100' pictures of the cathedral with multiple footnotes in various languages which one was English. So while I may not see the cathedral in Barcelona, I will not feel like I totally missed out either...

[Deborah]

I'm witnessing Christ among the 1.5 million youths that are in Madrid.

Having Priesthood authority has nothing to do with the testimony of Christ and any church that teaches youth such high morals is acting in the name of Christ. Priesthood is the administrative arm of God and you are right we will disagree on this. But at least one of us is right on that issue.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Deborah

[altersteve]

The OP is about "EV witness" and "LDS testimony". That is what we are talking about. If you want to quibble about "spiritual experiences"... I recommend finding a different thread.

I was simply responding to what you said here:

The LDS (burning of bosom), the EV (internal dwelling of the Holy Spirit), the Muslim (Sufism), the Buddhist (Nirvana), the Hindu (Moksha), etc., all claim to have spiritual experiences.

We can conclude that all spiritual experiences are false, but all cannot be equally true. If we accept the notion that one amongst the crowd is true, then the rest are counterfeits.

I do have to respond to this, though. It is not just a "burning in the bosom" for Latter-day Saints. We call it that sometimes, but it is much more than that, as myself and others have already explained in this thread. The internal dwelling of the Holy Spirit is found in almost every religion out there: all people have access to the power of the Holy Ghost. However, the other three you mentioned are not simple "spiritual experiences," nor are they witnesses; Sufism in Islam is a practice of turning away from everything except God. In Buddhism and other Indian religions, nirvana is a total liberation from greed, hatred, suffering, and delusion, and moksha in Hinduism is liberation from all worldly things to become reconciled with the supreme being. Is there not truth in those things? Are we not taught to turn away from all worldly things, all greed, hatred, suffering, and delusion, in order for us to truly become one with our Savior, and aren't we taught to look to Him and what He did for us so that such liberation becomes possible?

These religions may be missing a very important aspect (Jesus Christ), but obviously none of them are "counterfeits" by any means. If you believe all that Christ taught regarding our journey to leave all evil and worldly things behind in order to find true happiness, then you will accept the truth in the experiences that the Muslim, the Buddhist, and the Hindu all claim to have, as well as in the things that they believe. All it takes is an open mind and a more loving, Christlike perspective in order to see these truths.

Edited August 21, 2011 by altersteve

[Mudcat]

For the benefit of those of us who were not privy to the earlier discussions can any self described (non-LDS) Christian explain why their belief in a witness from the Holy Spirit leading to knowledge of the claims of their faith is distinct and by implication more valid than the LDS claims of testimony from the Holy Spirit that can lead to a knowledge of the truthfulness of the LDS claims?

Hi DG,

This a tough topic, IMO. I am typically not one who tries to argue that I am more right than another individual, IMO the Holy Spirit is actually the best arbiter of what is correct.

I think what is interesting is that both LDS and non-LDS Christians believe they encountered the Holy Spirit and via such experience have received knowledge. The actual knowledge claims themselves are quite different. I don't think arguing something to the effect of "my experience is better than yours" gets anyone much of anyplace... I mean, given the fact we only have direct access to our own experiences, we have no way of knowing which experience is actually better, or more authentic, and that sort of thing.

I think the best way to actually address the issue is to simply take it as a given that both parties could have had an experience with the Holy Spirit. Then take a good look at the specific role of the Holy Spirit in both cases, what he has said and so forth.

My Evangelical testimony is similar to many others. The role of the Holy Spirit was to convict me of my sins. To affirm the reality of Christ as the Son of God and his salvific work. To bring peace to my heart, after accepting Christ by affirming that I am in good standing with God by accepting Christs payment for debt of my sins. Also the Holy Spirit serves a continuous role of helping me to conform to the image of Christ as well as bringing me to a better understanding of how to achieve God's will and a greater understanding of God's word.

I bolded a bit of what I said, this I think is what you might call an EV "witness" though we typically refer to it as a "testimony".. as it seems you do towards your own. It might be better to specifically address this role of the Holy Spirit, rather than his continuous role in my life.

In regards to your question of the possible greater validity of my experience vs. that of an LDS experience. What I would offer is that what the Holy Spirit seems do in his role is consistent with what is claimed in the Bible that the Holy Spirit would do.

I think an argument for greater validity of the EV position could be made, by asserting that, from an Evangelical perspective the Holy Spirit fulfills what has been claimed of him in the Bible and this fulfillment is in some way contrary/inconsistent to the role LDS would claim that he takes.

I know that sounds unnecessarily broad, so I will try to be more specific. It has to do with how the Holy Spirit confirms the truth of the Bible. To me, the Holy Spirit fulfills the Bible's claims of him. By virtue of this both the Bible and the Holy Spirit are mutually authenticating of one another. The Holy Spirit does not inform me specifically that the Bible is true in a yes/no sort of fashion. Also, it is worth noting that EV's would attribute the Holy Spirit as the Bible's actual author. By his action the Holy Spirit confirms that the Bible actually is true.

This is quite different from the LDS position that follows Moroni 10:4

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So the BoM sets up a different sort of claim for the Holy Spirit. Granted the claim is internally consistent with the BoM, but this places the Holy Spirit treating differently two independent sets of documents (Bible and BoM) that he is both claimed to author. LDS seem to believe in the Bible and BoM.. as well as the rest of the Standard Works. How do you explain what I would think might be inconsistent methodology on the part of the HS. I know it only seems like a very minor point, but arguments from experience are typically well balanced so even minor points add weight in a crucial sort of way.

Also, I bolded a bit of Moroni 10:4 as another distinction. It seems that from an LDS perspective, faith in Christ is a prerequisite to receiving a testimony from the HS about the BoM. I am not sure I have that quite right DG, but that seems to be how it reads. If that is the case, could you describe the process of receiving an LDS testimony of Christ?

For example why is the Spirit witnessing to someone at an alter call that they can be saved by declaring Christ their Savior and covenanting as such by being baptized into a non-denominational Christian church any more or less valid than a person finding out that they can be saved by testifying Jesus Christ is their Savior and covenanting as such through LDS baptism?

Personally, I don't see much in specific difference when you phrase it like that. I would think that one group is likely closer to the truth than the other. But I don't believe that there is a wall of "error" that man can erect that is not within the Holy Spirits power to penetrate.

I am hoping you can provide some more specific information on to what you mean exactly when you are talking about an LDS Testimony, as it would be quite helpful in my responses.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited August 21, 2011 by Mudcat

[Deborah]

So the BoM sets up a different sort of claim for the Holy Spirit. Granted the claim is internally consistent with the BoM, but this places the Holy Spirit treating differently two independent sets of documents (Bible and BoM) that he is both claimed to author. LDS seem to believe in the Bible and BoM.. as well as the rest of the Standard Works. How do you explain what I would think might be inconsistent methodology on the part of the HS. I know it only seems like a very minor point, but arguments from experience are typically well balanced so even minor points add weight in a crucial sort of way.

I think the inconsistency is in the eye of the beholder. I don't find an inconsistency with the Bible and BOM, particularly in light of these verses:

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I guess I would need to know to what you are referring specifically. I don't see an inconsistency with Moroni 10:4 which talks about enlightenment and bearing witness to the truth of something.

[ldsfaqs]

I beg to differ. The entire existence of the LDS church is based on the notion that true Christianity suffered an apostasy sometime after the twelve apostles died. Your statement can only be true if you recant the notion that the LDS church is "the only one true church".

And I beg to differ..... A passive "statement of belief" about something is not even close to the same as anti-mormon efforts to destroy other religions.

After all this time here, you still don't know the difference with this?

[coolrok7]

Hardly passive as Mormonism asserts/declares in which members are taught/believe that they are the (the opposite is false and dead):

only true and living church on the face of the whole earth. (D&C 1:30)

If Mormons were content to leave others alone and that others as Christians are believers as well according to Biblical teaching, then the following is not necessary:

A Missionary Church

This explains why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must, of necessity, be a missionary church and why our missionaries take their message to other Christians, even though they are often criticized for so doing with the query, “why do you not go to the heathens? We already have Christianity.” The answer must obviously be: “Because we believe in a restored, revealed religion and church.” (A MARVELOUS WORK and a WONDER, LeGrand Richards, p.2)

I was handed a tract the other day. It was written by a critic, an enemy of the Church whose desire is to undermine the faith of the weak and the unknowing. It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Nov. 1986, p.49)

Erroneous Teachings of Christian Churches

One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man from the responsibility of his acts other than to confess a belief in God, and would teach man that no matter how great the sin, a confession would bring him complete forgiveness and salvation. What the world needs is more preaching of the necessity of abstaining from sin and of living useful and righteous lives, and less preaching of forgiveness of sin. . . .

One Heaven and One h***

There is also the false teaching of one heaven and one h***, with the thought that all who reach heaven will share alike, and the same will be true of those who are assigned to h***. The truth, as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, emphasizes the fact that every man will receive according to his works; that there is a glory like the glory of the sun, another like that of the moon, and still another like that of the stars, and that the glory to which one shall be assigned will be determined by the things he does and the kind of life he lives. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.24-26)

That would be fine and somewhat justified if they didn't do some of the same things they accuse others of.

[jmordecai]

Put them in context.

No amount of "fiery" preaching or whatever excuses you have diminishes the fact that General Authorities made degrading remarks against other religions.

It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.130 1958

Who founded the Roman Catholic Church? The Devil, through the medium of Apostates.

Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.205

This sentiment is pervasive in church history, despite whatever polish you want to give it.

[jmordecai]

No.

"Nuh uh" is not an argument. You need to explain how, according to LDS arguments here, the Holy Spirit will give specific revelation, testimony, witness, etc., that the LDS church is the one true church, while at the same time he can give revelation, testimony, witness, etc., to another that another religion is true, and even that the LDS church is false.

I can believe my faith is correct (or more correct) than others without denying them any light from God at all. You present a false dilemna. Your arguments also ignore my point that our doctrines afford others courtesy to believe as they may and our practices do not seek to inhibit them.

oh, and the entire existance of the LDS Church is based on the fact that God lives, His Son Jesus Christ is our Savior and that He speaks to us today through living prophets.

The founding and existence of the LDS church deems that no other church or religion may be true. That there may be some "truths" found in other religions is of no redeeming value.

The Book of Mormon claims to be a divinely inspired record, written by a succession of prophets who inhabited ancient America. It professes to be revealed to the present generation for the salvation of all who will receive it, and for the overthrow and damnation of all nations who reject it. This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.

Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.1

The one line in the Joseph Smith History that refers to the sects of the day as being incorrect and an abomination is just that. One line among thousands of lines of doctrine and revelation that agree more with other Chrisitan faiths than they disagree.

This "one line" is the entire premise and motivation of the First Vision. Without the First Vision there is no LDS church. If all the sects were wrong then... are they now right today?

I really encourage you to go to an LDS source to find out what we believe instead of playing gotcha with anti-mormon sources and out of context quotes.

That comment is inappropriate.

[Okrahomer]

No amount of "fiery" preaching or whatever excuses you have diminishes the fact that General Authorities made degrading remarks against other religions.

It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.130 1958

Who founded the Roman Catholic Church? The Devil, through the medium of Apostates.

Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.205

This sentiment is pervasive in church history, despite whatever polish you want to give it.

Your comments seem unrelated to the OP which is specific to the Evangelical (not Catholic) witness. Perhaps you should start another thread?