Paying Your 10% Tithe To Another Church Acceptable To Lds Church?

[Doug the Hutt]

Howdy folks,

Not that I've ever done this and not that I know anyone who has ever done this, but I'm curious whether it would fly or not.

Assumptions:

• Hypothetical LDS member believes in concept of tithing -- giving back to God and taking care of the poor like Jesus taught in the NT. Following the spirit of what Jesus taught is of highest importance.
• member wants to know that their money goes to the things Jesus indicated -- helping the poor, hungry, downtrodden, possessed, mentally ill, etc. and not to seemingly-worldly-things like venture capital, 0%-interest-loans with open-ended payoff dates to the President, real estate, condominiums, beet farms, stocks, bonds, treasuries, automobile purchases, carpet, janitors, etc.
• The LDS Church keeps their books closed even to tithepayers so this hypothetical member doesn't really don't know what happens to their money.

This member wants to pay tithing to a church with an open view into their finances and decides to pay ~LaVerl's Eighth Church of the Firstborn~ the 10% tithing on their gross income because of their open-ledger-policy. Sure, Friar LaVerl L. LaVerl gets a cut, and so do the utility companies, but it's modest and a significant percentage provides for the basic needs of people within the community.

Question:

When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?" How would the General Authorities view this financial decision? Would it be considered perfectly acceptable? Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[The Nehor]

When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?"

No.

How would the General Authorities view this financial decision?

With rolling of their eyes.

Would it be considered perfectly acceptable?

As tithing? No.

Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ?

Nope. I give money to a charity run by another church.

[bluebell]

Paying a full tithing isn't just about giving away 10% of your money to a good cause, even a Christian one. It's about giving money back to the Lord (that you have deemed as His), to support His kingdom on the earth-His kingdom being His church.

If you truly and honestly believe the LDS church is the Lord's church, then you'll sacrifice in ways that support that belief. Believing that the LDS church was 'true' but paying tithing to a different church would be like a father working to support his family, and then giving his salary to his neighbor while his wife and kids got nothing. Helping out the neighbor wouldn't be wrong, but helping out the neighbor by neglecting a family you claim to care for would be hard to justify and would be illogical.

[ebeddoulos]

Howdy folks,

Not that I've ever done this and not that I know anyone who has ever done this, but I'm curious whether it would fly or not.

Assumptions:

• Hypothetical LDS member believes in concept of tithing -- giving back to God and taking care of the poor like Jesus taught in the NT. Following the spirit of what Jesus taught is of highest importance.
• member wants to know that their money goes to the things Jesus indicated -- helping the poor, hungry, downtrodden, possessed, mentally ill, etc. and not to seemingly-worldly-things like venture capital, 0%-interest-loans with open-ended payoff dates to the President, real estate, condominiums, beet farms, stocks, bonds, treasuries, automobile purchases, carpet, janitors, etc.
• The LDS Church keeps their books closed even to tithepayers so this hypothetical member doesn't really don't know what happens to their money.

This member wants to pay tithing to a church with an open view into their finances and decides to pay ~LaVerl's Eighth Church of the Firstborn~ the 10% tithing on their gross income because of their open-ledger-policy. Sure, Friar LaVerl L. LaVerl gets a cut, and so do the utility companies, but it's modest and a significant percentage provides for the basic needs of people within the community.
Question:
When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?" How would the General Authorities view this financial decision? Would it be considered perfectly acceptable? Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

I suspect that you already know the answer from the LDS perspective.

• "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." (Malachi 3:10)

The operative phrase there is "mine house". Not that Friar LaVerl L. LaVerl is a bad guy nor is his flock. He is just not part of the restored church of Christ to who the tithing is supposed to be paid.

• "Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people." (D&C 119:1-3)

Now if this hypothetical LDS member wants to help support the good friar's ministry, more power to him. However, it should come out of nine tenths belonging to the hypothetical LDS member. He would not be in any trouble. At worst he would be denied a temple recommend assuming he did not pay his tithing to the Bishop per D&C 119. Shucks I've donated to several non-LDS ministries which I thought needed it. But it was always in addition to, not in lieu off tithing.

[Calm]

Howdy folks,

Not that I've ever done this and not that I know anyone who has ever done this, but I'm curious whether it would fly or not.

Assumptions:

• Hypothetical LDS member believes in concept of tithing -- giving back to God and taking care of the poor like Jesus taught in the NT. Following the spirit of what Jesus taught is of highest importance.
• member wants to know that their money goes to the things Jesus indicated -- helping the poor, hungry, downtrodden, possessed, mentally ill, etc. and not to seemingly-worldly-things like venture capital, 0%-interest-loans with open-ended payoff dates to the President, real estate, condominiums, beet farms, stocks, bonds, treasuries, automobile purchases, carpet, janitors, etc.
• The LDS Church keeps their books closed even to tithepayers so this hypothetical member doesn't really don't know what happens to their money.

This member wants to pay tithing to a church with an open view into their finances and decides to pay ~LaVerl's Eighth Church of the Firstborn~ the 10% tithing on their gross income because of their open-ledger-policy. Sure, Friar LaVerl L. LaVerl gets a cut, and so do the utility companies, but it's modest and a significant percentage provides for the basic needs of people within the community.

Question:

When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?" How would the General Authorities view this financial decision? Would it be considered perfectly acceptable? Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

I would suggest rather than donating it to another church that takes off a percentage to run their administration, that if the concern is the money go directly to the poor, that the member use the LDS humanitarian fund or fast offerings or some other charity that guarantees full funds directly to those in need.

Besides the issue of tithing, there might also be a problem with sustaining one's leaders if one refuses to pay tithing because of concerns with how it was being spent.

Edited August 18, 2011 by calmoriah

[ldsfaqs]

Howdy folks,

Not that I've ever done this and not that I know anyone who has ever done this, but I'm curious whether it would fly or not.

Assumptions:

• Hypothetical LDS member believes in concept of tithing -- giving back to God and taking care of the poor like Jesus taught in the NT. Following the spirit of what Jesus taught is of highest importance.
• member wants to know that their money goes to the things Jesus indicated -- helping the poor, hungry, downtrodden, possessed, mentally ill, etc. and not to seemingly-worldly-things like venture capital, 0%-interest-loans with open-ended payoff dates to the President, real estate, condominiums, beet farms, stocks, bonds, treasuries, automobile purchases, carpet, janitors, etc.
• The LDS Church keeps their books closed even to tithepayers so this hypothetical member doesn't really don't know what happens to their money.

First issue is you need to actually represent the FACTS ACCURATELY with some of your "assumptions", i.e. false assumptions.

1. Tithing is about increase to be given to "the Church" for whatever the Church uses it for, not simply the needy or poor. Also, Church operations serve a "spiritual" need, not simply a temporal one. Fast offerings are used primarily for the Temporal needs of the Church and others.

2. The Church does not use "Tithing" for all those 'worldly' things you mention. Those are the Churches "corporate" interests which are completely separate from the "spiritual" operations of the Church, things such as Tithing, etc. Tithing is entirely used for the Churches "spiritual" functions. This you tell falsely.

3. We LDS can clearly see what "happens with the money". It pays for Churches, manuals, classes, activities, etc. etc. Further, anyone that's been in the Priesthood, and thus associated with the leaders of the Ward, Bishops, Ward Clerks, ever been in or known someone that's been a part of the Ward Council, etc. can see "exactly" what happens with the money, that there is little to know chance for corruption, etc. It's a perfect system. Just recently I saw the Churches books for the U.K., apparently it's required by law to publish them there. Well, guess what I saw.....? Everything that I already knew of the Church.

Just because outsiders and insiders who make no effort to be active in the Gospel etc. don't know "where the money goes" doesn't mean the members of the Church can't see it and know it. Thus, another false assumption.

This member wants to pay tithing to a church with an open view into their finances and decides to pay ~LaVerl's Eighth Church of the Firstborn~ the 10% tithing on their gross income because of their open-ledger-policy. Sure, Friar LaVerl L. LaVerl gets a cut, and so do the utility companies, but it's modest and a significant percentage provides for the basic needs of people within the community.

I think they need to support the Church as they "covenanted with God" to do.... And doing otherwise is directly going against your covenants, especially if they have went through the Temple, where we covenant to commit all we are and have to the building of the Kingdom of God.

There is no "leeway" here.

Question:

When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?" How would the General Authorities view this financial decision? Would it be considered perfectly acceptable? Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Yes, I would say it would be against Church policy. You don't report other contributions to the Church, and if your tithing is going to another Church, then clearly you aren't paying your tithing. You may be "giving", but not paying your Tithing. Now, if you want to give to another Church outside of your obligation to tithe "to the Church", then that is your right and fine.

But, I would say this decision is going to be with your Bishop, and with those he's consulted with on whether you should be given a Temple Recommend, since it's not a usual case. But, I am a 100% certain that in likely all cases, they would say that's a no-no. If you want to go to the Temple, you have to follow the rules. If you want to go to another Churches "Temple", then your tithe to them goes to that. Either you believe in the Churches mission and your covenants or you do not. You can still likely remain a member in somewhat decent standing, though likely won't ever be called to a higher position, but that's about it.

Edited August 19, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[ldsfaqs]

Paying a full tithing isn't just about giving away 10% of your money to a good cause, even a Christian one. It's about giving money back to the Lord (that you have deemed as His), to support His kingdom on the earth-His kingdom being His church.

If you truly and honestly believe the LDS church is the Lord's church, then you'll sacrifice in ways that support that belief. Believing that the LDS church was 'true' but paying tithing to a different church would be like a father working to support his family, and then giving his salary to his neighbor while his wife and kids got nothing. Helping out the neighbor wouldn't be wrong, but helping out the neighbor by neglecting a family you claim to care for would be hard to justify and would be illogical.

Well said.....

[Messenger]

Officially, no. I don’t think giving money to another church would really equal paying tithing in my mind. To me that simply supports another church with different beliefs. I think showing sympathy or belonging to another group that is contrary to the LDS church teachings would be a temple recommend violation. Certainly joining another church would be.

But ultimately, how much you pay and how you calculate it as well as when you pay (once a month or once a year) depends on your own circumstances in some cases. These circumstances might include paying basing your 10% on net rather than gross as long as you pay 10% on the return of your taxes. It also may depend if you are divorced or not and paying child support. Does the money making spouse pay the tithing off of the Child Support or does the spouse taking care kids pay the tithing? HAHA! I'm sure it has a lot to do with your own situation and a lot of prayer. I truly believe that there is no one clear answer for everyone, except between you and the lord on that. Further, some people who have businesses don’t really know how much they make until the end of the year. I've owned several businesses which sold later and didn’t know what all the expenses were until the end of the year. When its a sole proprietorship, and not a corp or S-corp, the owner gets all the profit rather than a salary. That’s not known until the end of the year.

On a more official church example. I own a 9000 watt tri-fuel generator and when I was the Emergency Preparedness Coordinator, I wanted to donate the generator to the stake so they could run lights in an emergency. I asked if I could pay my tithing with the value of the generator. The answer was yes, but by the time everything could be worked out months later, I ended up moving to Idaho. I just paid the tithing and still have the generator!

Ultimately, I believe tithing is between you and the Lord. And I wouldn’t personally restrict the possibility that money donated to an inspired cause as being appropriately counted as tithing. But, I think there would need to be a real confirmation about that with prayer.

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is some extraordinary misinformation about tithing on an anti-Mormon website, mormonthink.com, here.

This badly named site cannot tell the difference between tithing and fast offerings (or other sorts of contributions Mormons make), nor that the Journal of Philanthropy designates Salt Lake City as the place of highest per capita charitable contributions. There are many other problems and discrepancies here, including avoidance of the fact that (unlike other religious groups) the LDS Church doesn't hide behind its religious status to claim tax-exempt status for what are actual businesses.

How does the Church spend the money?

As the financial books of the church are not subject to inspection by the members or anyone else, no one can detail what exactly the church spends its money on and how much of what they take in each year is spent running the church and how much is invested in non-ecclesiastical assets. Of course there are the expenses that we know they have such as buying real estate, building and maintaining ward meetinghouses, temples, historical sites, visitor centers, utilities, BYU, salaries of the Quorum of the 12 and First Quorum of the Seventy as well as the Second Quorom of the Seventy and the other church employees as well as some welfare and other social programs.

It should be noted that almost all of the church facilities are run by unpaid volunteers on church missions so that drives down the costs considerably. BYU is expensive but of course students pay tuition. Given the enormous revenues the church takes in each year, estimated above at some $6 Billion, it's seems quite apparent that they cannot spend anywhere close to that on an annual basis in building expenses and the other items mentioned above. The welfare-related expenses are likely very small in comparison to the income - based on the public expenditures listed in church magazines.

President Hinckley, in a public interview, admitted that the church is very wealthy. However, he then went on to say that the assets owned by the church are not income producing but are instead income draining. This is very deceptive. The church owns many businesses that generate profits. The $6 Billion or so is profit that the church takes in from contributions by its members and its businesses every year. The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The money it receives is almost all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes. The church owns virtually all of its properties so it doesn't have to pay rent. The utilities on those buildings and the meager funds allotted to the wards for their discretionary budget funds are just a drop in the bucket compared to its income.

Just think about the ward you're in. Just the tithing on one middle-class full-tithe payer (in the USA) is enough to pay the utilities for the building. There's not many expenses left so the rest goes to Salt Lake. The church of course does spend some money building new buildings as the church grows, but this is offset by the funds generated from the increased membership. We recognize that perhaps in some of the foreign countries the expenses exceed the revenues, but that's generally the case in any American-owned business that's trying to establish itself in new markets. Also the vast majority of active, tithe-paying members are still in the wealthy developed countries - particularly the United States.

Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year, and all you primarily had to provide in return were the buildings to meet in, a few social programs and some speeches made periodically by the owners. Just how phenomenally profitable would that corporation be?

The church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid. It appears that less than 1% of its revenues goes to really help the poor and needy. And those funds are usually donated as a high-profile contribution.

The LDS church has donated some $1.1 billion towards humanitarian aid around the world between 1985 and 2011. During that time period the average membership of the LDS church was 10 million members (today it's 14 million). Doing some simple math quickly shows that on average during the past 25 years, Mormons have contributed $5 per member per year toward humanitarian causes. That seems embarrassingly low for a Christ-centered entity.

However, in more recent times, the church has loosened its purse strings in some areas that it is often criticized for. The LDS Church did make some sizeable contributions to Haiti after their devastating earthquake. Most of the contributions came in the form of material goods. Here's an article discussing the Church's Haiti relief efforts. They have also made some significant donations to some Utah homeless shelters. We're very glad of course to see the church helping these people and hope the church will increase its efforts in this area as it does have the means.

Welfare Assistance

The following is from one of MormonThink's contributors who served as a bishop. Here is his perspective:

The church helps members in need, if you have a generous bishop. Like any bureaucracy or system, there are successes and experiences that make you cringe, because humans manage it. Each priesthood leader has the guidebook but also has their own interpretation of the guidelines. As a bishop, if a member was in serious financial trouble, I considered it a privilege to assist them. Not every bishop with whom I served felt the same way.

As a bishop I interviewed the member to determine what the family needed, when asked for help. Sometimes they needed cash for a car repair, a doctor's visit, or rent. Sometimes they needed food or toiletries. Of course it was customary to inquire as to whether or not the ward member in need, was managing finances responsibly; without being too nosey or too invasive. A generous bishop works hard to help members retain their dignity through the process. Many others do not. Some are people oriented and some are task oriented. Some focus more on the person in need and some focus on protecting the church's "sacred tithing funds." Some are generous and some are anything but.

It was customary to ask members to "work" at the local church cannery in exchange for food. When the "clean-your-own-ward-building" program appeared, it was also a natural way to allow those receiving welfare to "earn" it. The philosophy of the church, as explained in the Handbook, was to help members in need retain their dignity. I found that more often than not, these menial tasks, were the equivalent of exposing them as needy, to the rest of the ward. But I did what I was told to do. I gave them assigned tasks in exchange for help.

In the 1970's and 80's it may have been easier to get assistance. I received assistance myself to pay tuition for a mandatory class required by my job as a young married man on a limited income. Perhaps because of the current economic hardships, and limited resources, the church has restricted assistance. Currently, members report that they must be full tithe payers in order to qualify for assistance. Of course, if members could afford to pay tithing to the church, they could probably buy enough food for their families if they spent those funds on their families instead of giving to the church. I found it bizarre or odd to offer assistance and then require the family to tithe a tenth of the assistance and agree to pay tithing forever. That kind of church bureaucracy was worse to me than the federal government's assistance programs. But that's just me. I used to get into trouble for being too generous. Yet I never offered assistance to anyone unless they were down and out. It appeared to me that my upline leaders were more concerned about not giving any money away, than they were about helping out the less fortunate.

I can tell you unequivocally that who the bishop is, and what philosophical views he holds, determines whether a ward member will be treated well or not; given assistance or not. A good friend of mine who served as bishop before me, was, for lack of a nicer term, a tightwad. He bragged about it. He offended so many members who were without work and needed help, that the stake president confronted him and asked him to "ease up." He thought the stake president had no right to question his judgement and vowed not to "relax his standards." The kind of treatment one receives when asking a bishop for assistance depends on the personality and personal philosophy of that particular bishop. If the Holy Ghost really made those decisions, there would be far more uniformity and consistency that is present in the process. Some bishops are approachable, likeable and humble. It is manifest in the way he deals with people. Some bishops are task oriented and unaware of how their actions affect others, and thus their members are made to feel guilt and unworthiness. The bishops who are not emotionally intelligent receive the most complaints from members already hurting from difficult circumstances. The ward members feel guilty and ashamed for asking for assistance but are often made to feel more guilty or unworthy by their bishop.

The church has attached more strings to welfare assistance over the last decade. The program has changed. It no longer offers the same degree of security it once did. That isn't a criticism. It is what it is. The new Handbooks reflect the new paradigm.

[Storm Rider]

Question:

When our hypothetical member goes to get a temple recommend will the payment of their tithing to LaVerl's church be counted and accepted by the Bishop & Stake President when asked "Do you pay a full tithe?" How would the General Authorities view this financial decision? Would it be considered perfectly acceptable? Would the member be chastized for supporting apostate churches with no authority to spend/invest in the name of Christ? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

I assume that you woke up with far too much time on your hands? If you have not already been told; you are desperately need of a hobby.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Storm Rider

[ERayR]

And Doug knew all this before he even posted. This has all been discussed before and probably with Doug's participation.

So, what is your real purpose for this rehash.