Taken At Face Value...Is The Book Of Mormon True

[Craig Paxton]

Former head of the organizatin that evenutally became F.A.R.M.S., Thomas Stuart Ferguson, was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.

In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in response to papers written by Mormon apologists John Sorenson and Garth Norman. It was entitled, "Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers." In this response, Mr. Ferguson wrote: 'With all of these great efforts, it cannot be established factually that anyone, from Joseph Smith to the present day, has put his finger on a single point of terrain that was a Book-of-Mormon geographical place. And the hemisphere has been pretty well checked out by competent people. Thousands of sites have been excavated."

Ferguson pointed out in his paper that the text of the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that certain items should be found in archaeological excavations and that these items are not present in the sites proposed. He noted, for instance, that "Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon..." He concluded by saying: "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong."

To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants in regions proposed as Nephite-Lamanite country:

BARLEY

Mosiah 7:22 One half of our corn, and our barley

Mosiah 9:9 With seeds of corn . . . and of barley

Alma 11:7 And either for a measure of barley

Alma 11:15 A shiblon for half a measure of barley

FIGS

3 Ne. 14:16 Gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

GRAPES

2 Ne. 15:2 He looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:2 And it brought forth wild grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 I looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 It brought forth wild grapes

3 Ne. 14:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of

WHEAT

Mosiah 9:9 With seed of corn, and of wheat

3 Ne. 18:18 To have you: that he may sift you as wheat

Evidence to support the existence of these forms of plant life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

Barley: None

Figs: None

Grapes: None

Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

Animal-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following animals in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite country:

***

1 Ne. 18:25 The ox and the *** and the horse

Mosiah 5:14 Doth a man take an *** which belongeth?

Mosiah 12:5 They shall be driven before like a dumb ***

Mosiah 13:24 His maid servant, nor his ox, nor his ***

Mosiah 21:3 And drive them as they would a dumb ***

ASSES

Ether 9:19 They also had horses, and asses

BULL

2 Ne. 8:20 As a wild bull in a net

CALF

2 Ne. 21:6 The calf and the young lion and fatling

2 Ne. 30:12 The calf, and the young lion, and the fatling

CALVES

1 Ne. 22:24 The righteous must be led up as calves of

3 Ne. 25:2 Go forth and grow up as calves in the stall

CATTLE

2 Ne. 17:25 And the treading of lesser cattle [sheep]14

Enos 1:21 Flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind

Mosiah 13:18 Nor thy maid-servant, nor they cattle, nor

3 Ne. 3:22 Their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle

3 Ne. 4:4 Provisions, and horses, and cattle, and flocks

3 Ne. 6:1 Flocks, and his herds, his horses and his cattle

Ether 9:18 Also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows

COW

1 Ne. 18:25 Both the cow and the ox and the ***

2 Ne. 17:21 A man shall nourish a young cow and two

2 Ne. 21:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed

2 Ne. 30:13 And the cow and the bear shall feed

COWS

Ether 9:18 All manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows

BUTTER

2 Ne. 17:15 Butter and honey shall he eat

2 Ne. 17:22 He shall eat butter

2 Ne. 17:22 For butter and honey shall every one eat

MILK

2 Ne. 9:50 Come buy wine and milk without money

2 Ne. 17:22 For the abundance of milk they shall give

2 Ne. 26:25 Buy milk and honey, without money and

FATLING

2 Ne. 21:6 And the young lion and the fatling together

2 Ne. 30:12 And the young lion, and the fatling, together

FATLINGS

Mosiah 11:3 And a fifth part of their fatlings

Alma 1:29 Flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind

Hel. 6:12 Raise many flocks and herds, yea, many fatlings

FIRSTLINGS

Mosiah 2:3 Also took of the firstlings of their flocks

FLOCKS

His Flocks—

Mosiah 5:14 Suffer that he shall feed among his flocks

Alma 18:2 Faithfulness of Ammon in preserving his flocks

3 Ne. 6:1 Every man, with his family, his flocks

Our Flocks—

Mosiah 7:22 One-half of the increase of our flocks

Mosiah 22:8 We will depart with our women . . . our flocks

Alma 17:28 Behold our flocks are scattered already

Alma 17:33 With these men who do scatter our flocks

Their Flocks—

Mosiah 2:3 Also took of the firstlings of their flocks

Mosiah 9:14 Were watering and feeding their flocks

Mosiah 9:14 Began to slay them, and to take off their flocks

Mosiah 10:21 My people began to tend their flocks

Mosiah 11:16 And while they were tending their flocks

Mosiah 11:17 Drove many of their flocks out of the land

Mosiah 21:18 And secured their grain and their flocks

Mosiah 22:2 To take their women . . . and their flocks

Mosiah 22:6 They gather together their flocks and herds

Mosiah 22:10 His people should gather their flocks together

Mosiah 22:11 Depart . . . into the wilderness with their flocks

Mosiah 23:1 They gathered together their flocks, and took

Mosiah 24:18 In the night time, gathered their flocks together

Mosiah 24:18 Night time were they gathering their flocks

Alma 2:25 Are fleeing before them with their flocks

Alma 3:2 Also many of their flocks and their herds

Alma 4:2 Also for the loss of their flocks and herds

Alma 17:26 Going forth with their flocks to the place

Alma 17:26 And all the Lamanites drive their flocks hither

Alma 17:27 Were driving forth their flocks to this place

Alma 17:27 The Lamanites, who had been with their flocks

Alma 17:28 Because their flocks were scattered by

Alma 17:33 Those men again stood to scatter their flocks

Alma 17:39 They watered their flocks and returned them

Alma 18:6 Because their brethren had scattered their flocks

Alma 18:6 Because they had had their flocks scattered

Alma 19:20 Their flocks scattered at the waters of Sebus

Alma 27:14 Did gather together all their flocks

Hel. 12:2 In the increase of their fields, their flocks

3 Ne. 3:13 They should gather . . . their flocks and their

3 Ne. 3:22 They had taken . . . all their flocks and their

3 Ne. 4:3 Lands desolate, and had gathered their flocks

Ether 2:1 With their flocks which they had gathered

Ether 6:4 Also food for their flocks and herds

Ether 9:31 Their flocks began to flee before the poisonous

Flocks—

Enos 1:21 Flocks of herds and flocks of all manner

Mosiah 9:12 Feast themselves upon the flocks of our fields

Mosiah 10:2 Thus I did guard my people and my flocks

Mosiah 21:16 Raise grain more abundantly, and flocks

Alma 1:29 And abundance of flocks and herds

Alma 4:6 Because of their many flocks and herds

Alma 7:27 Peace of God rest upon you . . . upon your flocks

Alma 17:25 He was set . . . to watch the flocks of Lamoni

Alma 17:27 Stood and scattered the flocks of Ammon

Alma 17:29 In restoring these flocks unto the king

Alma 17:31 And let us go in search of the flocks

Alma 17:31 We will preserve the flocks unto the king

Alma 17:32 That they went in search of the flocks

Alma 17:32 And did head the flocks of the king

Alma 17:33 Encircle the flocks round about that they

Alma 17:35 They stood to scatter the flocks of the king

Alma 18:3 Neither can they scatter the king's flocks

Alma 18:7 Waters of Sebus, to scatter the flocks

Alma 18:16 And I defended thy servants and thy flocks

Alma 18:16 In order to defend thy flocks and thy servants

Alma 18:20 Arms of my brethren that scattered my flocks

Alma 19:21 At the waters of Sebus, and scattered the flocks

Alma 19:21 While defending the flocks of the king

Alma 34:20 Cry unto him over all your flocks

Alma 34:25 Cry over the flocks of your field

Alma 62:29 Raising all manner of grain, and flocks

Hel. 6:12 And they did raise many flocks and herds

3 Ne. 4:4 Reserved . . . cattle, and flocks of every kind

3 Ne. 20:16 A young lion among the flocks of sheep

3 Ne. 21:12 A young lion among the flocks of sheep

Ether 1:41 Go to and gather together thy flocks

Ether 10:12 Became exceeding rich . . . in flocks, and herds

GOAT

1 Ne. 18:25 The horse, and the goat and the wild goat

Alma 14:29 As a goat fleeth with her young from two

GOATS

Enos 1:21 Goats, and wild goats, and also many horses

Ether 9:18 Also all manner of cattle . . . of swine, and of goats

HERDS

2 Ne. 5:11 And we began to raise flocks. and herds

Enos 1:21 Flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner

Mosiah 7:22 One half of the increase of our . . . herds

Mosiah 21:16 Grain more abundantly, and flocks, and herds

Mosiah 22:2 Children, and their flocks, and their herds

Mosiah 22:6 Gather together their flocks and herds

Mosiah 22:8 Our flocks, and our herds into the wilderness

Mosiah 22:11 Wilderness with their flocks and their herds

Alma 1:29 And abundance of flocks and herds

Alma 3:2 Also many of their flocks and their herds

Alma 4:2 Also for the loss of their flocks and herds

Alma 4:6 Because of their many flocks and herds

Alma 7:27 Peace . . . rest . . . upon your flocks, and herds

Alma 27:14 Gather together all their flocks and herds

Alma 62:29 Grain, and flocks, and herds of every kind

Hel. 6:12 They did raise many flocks and herds15

Hel. 12:2 Increase of . . . their flocks and their herds

3 Ne. 3:13 They should gather . . . their flocks and their herds

3 Ne. 3:22 All their flocks, and their herds, and their

3 Ne. 4:3 And had gathered their flocks, and their herds

3 Ne. 6:1 Every man, with his family . . . and his herds

Ether 6:4 Also food for their flocks and herds

Ether 10:12 In raising grain, and in flocks and herds

HORSE

1 Ne. 18:25 Cows and the ox, and the *** and the horse

HORSES

2 Ne. 12:7 Their land is also full of horses

2 Ne. 15:28 Their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint

Enos 1:21 And wild goats, and also many horses

Alma 18:9 Behold, he is feeding thy horses

Alma 18:9 They should prepare his horses and chariots

Alma 18:10 Heard that Ammon was preparing his horses

Alma 18:12 When Ammon had made ready the horses

Alma 20:6 His servants should make ready his horses

3 Ne. 3:22 Taken their horses, and their chariots, and

3 Ne. 4:4 Reserved for themselves provisions, and horses

3 Ne. 6:1 His horses and his cattle, and all things whatsoever

3 Ne. 21:14 I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of

Ether 9:19 And they also had horses and asses

OX

1 Ne. 18:25 Both the cow and the ox, and the ***

2 Ne. 21:7 And the lion shall eat straw like the ox

2 Ne. 30:13 And the lion shall eat straw like the ox

Mosiah 13:24 Nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his

OXEN

2 Ne. 17:25 But it shall be for the sending forth of oxen

Ether 9:18 All manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows

SHEEP

My Sheep—

Mosiah 26:20 And shalt gather together my sheep

Mosiah 26:21 He that will hear my voice shall be my sheep

3 Ne. 15:24 And ye are my sheep and ye are numbered

3 Ne. 16:3 And shall be numbered among my sheep

3 Ne. 18:31 I know my sheep, and they are numbered

Sheep—

1 Ne. 22:25 He numbereth his sheep, and they know him

1 Ne. 22:25 He shall feed his sheep, and in him they

2 Ne. 17:21 A man shall nourish a young cow and two sheep

2 Ne. 23:14 And as a sheep that no man taketh up

Mosiah 14:6 And we, like sheep, have gone astray

Mosiah 14:7 And as a sheep before her shearers is dumb

Mosiah 15:6 As a sheep before the shearer is dumb

Alma 5:37 Gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd

Alma 5:38 Ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd

Alma 5:39 If ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd

Alma 5:59 Is there among you having many sheep?

Alma 5:60 Bring you into the fold, and ye are his sheep

Alma 25:12 Even as a sheep having no shepherd is driven

Hel. 15:13 True shepherd, and be numbered among his sheep

3 Ne. 14:15 False prophets, who come unto you in sheep's

3 Ne. 15:17 Other sheep I have, which are not of this

3 Ne. 15:21 Other sheep I have, which are not of this

3 Ne. 16:1 I have other sheep, which are not of this

3 Ne. 20:16 As a young lion among the flocks of sheep

3 Ne. 21:12 As a young lion among the flocks of sheep

Ether 9:18 Also all manner of cattle . . . and of sheep

SHEARER

Mosiah 15:6 As a sheep before the shearer is dumb

SOW (Swine)

3 Ne. 7:8 Or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire

SWINE

3 Ne. 14:6 Neither cast ye your pearls before swine

Ether 9:18 Cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of

ELEPHANTS

Ether 9:19 And there were elephants and cureloms

Ether 9:19 More especially the elephants, and cureloms

Evidence supporting the existence of these forms of animal life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

***: None

Bull: None

Calf: None

Cattle: None

Cow: None

Goat: None

Horse: None

Ox: None

Sheep: None

Sow: None

Elephants: None (contemporary with Book of Mormon)

Evidence of the foregoing animals has not appeared in any form—ceramic representations, bone or skeletal remains, mural art, sculptured art, or any other form. However, in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson, evidence has been found in several forms of the presence in Book-of-Mormon times of other animals—deer, jaguars, dogs, turkeys, etc. The zero score presents a problem that will not go away with the ignoring of it. Non-LDS scholars of first magnitude—some who want to be our friends—think we have real trouble here. That evidence of the ancient existence of these animals is not elusive is found in the fact that proof of their existence in the ancient Old World is abundant. The absence of such evidence in the area proposed for our consideration in this symposium is distressing and significant, in my view.

Metallurgy Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following metals and metallurgical skills and products in the regions proposed as Nephite-Lamanite-Jaredite-Mulekite country:

BELLOWS

1 Ne. 17:11 I, Nephi, did make a bellows

1 Ne. 17:11 And after I had made a bellows

BRASS

Engraven on (or upon) the Plates of Brass—

1 Ne. 3:3,12,24; 4:16; 5:10; 19:22; 22:1; 2 Ne. 4:15; 5:12; Mosiah 1:3,16;10:16; 28:11

Plates of Brass—

1 Ne. 4:24 The engravings which were upon the plates of brass

1 Ne. 4:38 We took the plates of brass…into the wilderness

1 Ne. 5:14 Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass, a

1 Ne. 5:18 These plates of brass should go forth

1 Ne. 5:19 These plates of brass should never perish

1 Ne. 13:23 Engravings which are upon the plates of brass

1 Ne. 19:21 They are written upon the plates of brass

1 Ne. 22:30 Which have been written upon the plates of brass

2 Ne. 4:2 And they are written upon the plates of brass

Omni 1:14 Sent the people of Mosiah, with the plates of brass

Mosiah 28:20 He took the plates of brass, and all the things

Alma 37:3 These plates of brass which contain these

3 Ne. 1:2 Concerning the plates of brass

3 Ne. 10:7 Are they not written upon the plates of brass?

Brass—

1 Ne. 16:10 And it [the ball] was of fine brass

1 Ne. 20:4 Thy neck was an iron sinew, and thy brow brass

2 Ne. 5:15 To work in all manner of . . . brass, and of steel

Jarom 1:8 Also in iron and copper, and brass and steel

Mosiah 8:10 They are of brass and of copper

Mosiah 11:3 And of their brass and their iron

Mosiah 11:8 Of silver, and of iron, and of brass

Mosiah 11:10 Of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass

3 Ne. 20:19 And I will make thy hoofs brass

Ether 10:23 Make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass

BREAST-PLATES

Mosiah 8:10 They have brought breast-plates which are large

Alma 43:19 Moroni had prepared his people with breast-plates

Alma 43:21 They were not armed with breast-plates

Alma 43:38 Shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites by their breast-plates

Alma 43:44 They did pierce many of their breast-plates

Alma 44:9 It is your breast-plates . . . that have preserved you

Alma 46:13 Fastened on his head-plate and his breast-plates

Alma 49:6 With shields, and with breast-plates

Alma 49:24 Shielded by their shields, and their breast-plates

Hel. 1:14 Armed them with . . . head-plates, and with breast-plates

Ether 15:15 Having shields, and breast-plates, and head-plates

CHAINS

2 Ne. 1:13 Shake off the awful chains by which ye are

2 Ne. 1:13 Which are the chains which bind the children

2 Ne. 1:23 Shake off the chains with which ye are bound

2 Ne. 9:45 Shake off the chains of him that would bind

2 Ne. 13:19 The chains and the bracelets, and the mufflers

2 Ne. 28:19 Will grasp them with his everlasting chains

2 Ne. 28:22 Until the grasps them with his awful chains

Alma 5:7 Bands of death, and the chains of h***

Alma 5:9 The chains of h*** which encircled them

Alma 5:10 Yea, and also the chains of h***?

Alma 12:6 Might encircle you about with his chains

Alma 12:11 This is what is meant by the chains of h***

Alma 13:30 Ye may not be bound down by the chains

Alma 26:14 Loosed our brethren from the chains of h***

Alma 36:18 Encircled about by the everlasting chains

COPPER

1 Ne. 18:25 Both of gold, and of silver, and of copper

2 Ne. 5:15 To work in all manner of wood . . . and of copper

Jarom 1:8 Also in iron and copper, and brass and steel

Mosiah 8:10 Breast-plates . . . they are of brass and of copper

Mosiah 11:3 A fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper

Mosiah 11:8 Of brass, and of ziff, and of copper

Mosiah 11:10 The temple, of fine wood, and of copper

Ether 10:23 Mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold . . . and of copper

GOLD

1 Ne. 2:4 He left his house . . . and his gold, and his

1 Ne. 2:11 To leave . . . their inheritance, and their gold

1 Ne. 3:16 He left gold and silver, and all manner of

1 Ne. 3:22 We did gather together our gold, and our

1 Ne. 3:24 For which we would give unto him our gold

1 Ne. 4:9 And the hilt thereof was of pure gold

1 Ne. 13:7 I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and

1 Ne. 13:8 Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks

1 Ne. 18:25 We did find all manner of ore, both of gold

2 Ne. 5:15 To work in all manner of wood . . . and of gold

2 Ne. 12:7 Their land is also full of silver and gold

2 Ne. 12:20 His idols of gold, which he hath made

2 Ne. 23:12 Make a man more precious than fine gold

2 Ne. 23:17 Which shall not regard silver and gold

Jacob 1:16 And they also began to search much gold

Jacob 2:12 Many of you have begun to search for gold

Jarom 1:8 Became exceeding rich in gold, and in all

Mosiah 2:12 And have not sought gold nor silver

Mosiah 4:19 Raiment, and for gold, and for silver

Mosiah 8:9 Brought 24 plates, and they are of pure gold

Mosiah 11:3 A fifth part of their gold and of their silver

Mosiah 11:8 All manner of precious things, of gold

Mosiah 11:9 And was ornamented with gold and silver

Mosiah 11:11 Seats, he did ornament with pure gold

Mosiah 19:15 One half of their gold and their silver

Mosiah 22:12 They had taken all their gold, and silver

Mosiah 28:11 Records which were on the plates of gold

Alma 1:29 Also abundance of grain, and of gold

Alma 4:6 Their gold and their silver, and all manner

Alma 11:3 The judge received . . . a senine of gold for a

Alma 11:3 Senurn of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold

Alma 11:4 Names of the different pieces of their gold

Alma 11:5 Thus: a senine of gold, a seon of gold

Alma 11:5 A shum of gold, a limnah of gold

Alma 11:7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold

Alma 11:8 A seon of gold was twice the value of a

Alma 11:9 A shum of gold was twice the value of a

Alma 11:10 A limnah of gold was the value of them

Alma 11:19 An antion of gold is equal to three shiblons

Alma 15:16 Amulek having forsaken all his gold

Alma 17:14 Their hearts were set upon . . . gold and silver

Alma 31:24 He saw that their hearts were set upon gold

Alma 31:28 Their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold

Hel. 6:9 They did have an exceeding plenty of gold

Hel. 6:11 There was all manner of gold in both these

Hel. 6:31 Build up unto themselves idols of their gold

Hel. 7:21 And that ye might get gold and silver

Hel. 12:2 In the increase of their fields . . . and in gold

Hel. 13:28 Ye will give unto him of your gold

3 Ne. 6:2 Their grain of every kind, and their gold

3 Ne. 24:3 Sons of Levi, and purge them as gold

3 Ne. 27:32 They will sell me for silver, and for gold

4 Ne. 1:46 Gold and silver did they lay up in store

Ether 9:17 Of gold and of silver, and of precious things

Ether 10:7 His fine gold he did cause to be refined

Ether 10:12 Became exceeding rich . . . in gold, and silver

Ether 10:23 They did make gold, and silver, and iron

Ether 10:23 Mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold

IRON

Rod of Iron—

1 Ne. 8:19 And I beheld a rod of iron

1 Ne. 8:20 Path, which came along by the rod of iron

1 Ne. 8:24 Caught hold of the end of the rod of iron

1 Ne. 8:24 Mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron

1 Ne. 8:30 Caught hold of the end of the rod of iron

1 Ne. 8:30 Continually holding fast to the rod of iron

1 Ne. 11:25 I beheld that the rod of iron which my father

1 Ne. 15:23 What meaneth the rod of iron which our father

Iron—

1 Ne. 13:5 Yoketh them with a yoke of iron

1 Ne. 20:4 And thy neck was an iron sinew

2 Ne. 5:15 Work in all manner of wood, and of iron

2 Ne. 20:34 Cut down the thickets of the forests with iron

Jarom 1:8 In iron and copper, and brass and steel

Mosiah 11:3 A fifth part off their . . . brass and their iron

Mosiah 11:8 All manner of precious things . . . of iron

3 Ne. 20:19 Yea, I will make thy horn iron

Ether 10:23 They did make gold, and silver, and iron

Ether 10:23 Get ore of gold, and of silver, and of iron

METALS

[Hel. 6:9 Silver, and of all manner of precious metals]

[Ether 10:22 Iron, and brass, and all manner of metals]

MOULTEN

Ether 3:1 Did moulten out of a rock sixteen small stones

Ether 3:3 Things which I have moulten out of the rock

Ether 7:9 He died moulten out of the hill, and made swords

ORE

1 Ne. 17:9 Whither shall I go that I may find ore?

1 Ne. 17:10 Told me whither I should go to find ore

1 Ne. 17:16 I did make tools of the ore which I did

1 Ne. 18:25 We did find all manner of ore, both of

1 Ne. 19:1 Wherefore I did make plates of ore

Mosiah 21:27 And they were engraven on plates of ore

Hel. 6:11 Of silver, and of precious ore of every

Hel. 6:1 Workmen, who did work all kinds of ore

Morm. 8:5 And ore I have none, for I am alone

Ether 10:23 And they did work in all manner of ore

Ether 10:23 Did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore

ORES

2 Ne. 5:15 Of gold and of silver, and of precious ores

Jacob 2:12 For silver and all manner of precious ores

PLOW

Ether 10:25 Both to plow and to sow, to reap and to

PLOW-SHARES

2 Ne. 12:4 They shall beat their swords into plow-shares

STEEL

1 Ne. 4:9 Blade thereof was of the most precious steel

1 Ne. 16:18 My bow, which was made of fine steel

2 Ne. 5:15 To work in all manner of wood . . . and of steel

Jarom 1:8 Also in iron and copper, and brass and steel

Ether 7:9 And made swords out of steel for those

SILVER

1 Ne. 2:4 Gold, and his silver, and his precious things

1 Ne. 2:11 Their gold, and their silver, and their precious

1 Ne. 3:16 He left gold and silver, and all manner of

1 Ne. 3:22 Gather together our gold, and our silver

1 Ne. 3:24 Would give unto him our gold and our silver

1 Ne. 13:7 I also saw gold, and silver, and silks and scarlets

1 Ne. 13:8 Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks

1 Ne. 18:25 Ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper

2 Ne. 5:15 Gold, and of silver, and of precious ores

2 Ne. 12:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold

2 Ne. 12:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver

2 Ne. 23:17 Against them, which shall not regard silver

Jacob 1:16 Also began to search much gold and silver

Jacob 2:12 Began to search for gold, and for silver

Jarom 1:8 Exceeding rich in gold, and in silver

Mosiah 2:12 And have not sought gold nor silver

Mosiah 4:19 Do we not all depend . . . for silver, and for

Mosiah 11:3 A fifth part of their gold and of their silver

Mosiah 11:8 He ornamented them with . . . silver

Mosiah 11:9 Was ornamented with gold and silver

Mosiah 19:15 One half of their gold, and their silver

Mosiah 22:12 They had taken all of their gold and silver

Alma 1:29 Abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver

Alma 4:6 Their silver, and all manner of precious things

Alma 11:3 A senum of silver, which is equal to a senine

Alma 11:4 Different pieces of their gold, and of their silver

Alma 11:6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver

Alma 11:6 An ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver

Alma 11:7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine

Alma 11:11 An amnor of silver was as great as two senums

Alma 11:12 An ezrom of silver was as great as four senums

Alma 11:22 Here is six onties of silver, and all these

Alma 15:16 Having forsaken all his gold, and silver

Alma 17:14 Their hearts were set upon . . . told and silver

Alma 31:24 Hearts were set upon gold, and upon silver

Hel. 6:9 An exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver

Hel. 6:11 Of silver, and of precious ore of every kind

Hel. 6:31 Idols of their gold and their silver

Hel. 7:21 And that ye might get gold and silver

Hel. 12:2 In gold, and in silver, and in all manner

Hel. 13:28 Ye will give unto him of your . . . silver

3 Ne. 6:2 Their silver, and all their precious things

3 Ne. 24:3 He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver

3 Ne. 24:3 Sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver

3 Ne. 27:32 For they will sell me for silver and for gold

4 Ne. 1:46 Gold and silver did they lay up in store

Ether 9:17 Having all manner of . . . gold, and of silver

Ether 10:12 People became exceeding rich . . . in gold, and silver

Ether 10:23 And they did make gold, and silver, and iron

Ether 10:23 Mighty heaps of earth to get ore . . . of silver

SWORDS

Our Swords—

Alma 24:12 And our swords have become bright

Alma 24:12 Then let us stain our swords no more

Alma 24:13 I say unto you, nay, let us retain our swords

Alma 24:13 If we should stain our swords again

Alma 24:15 And our swords are made bright

Alma 24:15 We have not stained our swords in the blood

Alma 24:16 We will hide away our swords, yea

Alma 44:8 Otherwise we will retain our swords

Alma 44:9 Cunning that has preserved you from our swords

Alma 57:9 But we did sleep upon our swords

Alma 57:33 We did cause that our swords should come

Alma 57:33 They did in a body run upon our swords

Alma 61:14 Let us resist them with our swords

Hel. 13:34 Our swords are taken from us in the day

Their Swords—

2 Ne. 12:4 They shall beat their swords into plow-shares

Alma 17:7 Zarahemla, and took their swords, and their

Alma 24:17 They took their swords, and all the weapons

Alma 43:20 They had only their swords and their cimeters

Alma 43:37 Heavy blows of the Nephites with their swords

Alma 43:38 Then a man fell among the Nephites by their swords

Alma 44:17 The Lamanites did contend with their swords

Alma 49:20 Their most strong men, with their swords

Alma 52:39 Those who would not deliver up their swords

Alma 60:16 Instead of taking up their swords against us

Alma 62:5 Did take up their swords in the defense

Hel. 15:9 And will not lift their swords against them

Ether 15:20 When the night came they slept upon their swords

Ether 15:22 And they slept again upon their swords

Ether 15:24 They slept upon their swords that night

Ether 15:24 Contended in their mights with their swords

By the Sword—

1 Ne. 1:13 Many should perish by the sword

2 Ne. 13:25 Thy men shall fall by the sword

2 Ne. 23:15 Is joined to the wicked, shall fall by the sword

Omni 1:17 Had fallen by the sword from time to time

Mosiah 22:2 Deliver themselves out of bondage by the sword

Alma 1:9 Therefore he was slain by the sword

Alma 1:12 Hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword

Alma 2:1 The man that slew Gideon by the sword

Alma 10:23 Famine, and by pestilence, and by the sword

Alma 17:39 Had been smote off by the sword of Ammon

Alma 50:22 Consigned to bondage, or to perish by the sword

Alma 50:26 They were determined by the sword to slay

Alma 51:19 Dissenters who were hewn down by the sword

Alma 51:20 Be smitten down to the earth by the sword

Alma 56:51 For Antipus had fallen by the sword

Alma 57:23 And were not all destroyed by the sword

Alma 58:39 And kept them from falling by the sword

Alma 60:5 Yea; thousands have fallen by the sword

Alma 60:8 Saved thousands of them from falling by the sword

Alma 60:12 There are many who have fallen by the sword

Alma 60:22 Borders of the land, who are falling by the sword

Alma 60:35 Of your food, even if it must be by the sword

Hel. 11:4 This people shall be destroyed by the sword

Hel. 11:5 Work of destruction did cease by the sword

Morm. 6:15 Did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each

Ether 13:18 Many people who were slain by the sword

Ether 14:4 And many thousands fell by the sword

Ether 14:24 That Coriantumr should not fall by the sword

Ether 15:2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword

Ether 15:23 When the night came they had all fallen by the sword

Ether 15:28 Coriantumr, or he would perish by the sword

Ether 15:29 When they had all fallen by the sword

Moro. 9:2 And Archeantus has fallen by the sword

With the Sword—

1 Ne. 12:2 Great slaughters with the sword among my

Omni 1:2 I fought much with the sword to preserve

W of M 1:13 Strength of his own arm, with the sword of

Alma 2:20 Slain by the hand of Nehor with the sword

Alma 2:29 Alma fought with Amlici with the sword

Alma 2:31 Insomuch that he slew Amlici with the sword

Alma 3:2 And children had been slain with the sword

Alma 6:7 Slain by the hand of Nehor with the sword

Alma 18:16 Brethren with the sling and with the sword

Alma 19:22 Brother had been slain with the sword of

Alma 20:14 That he should slay Ammon with the sword

Alma 24:21 And began to slay Ammon with the sword

Alma 58:18 Were about to fall upon us with the sword

Alma 60:17 They are murdering our people with the sword

Alma 60:30 Zarehemla, and smite you with the sword

Hel. 1:23 And cut his way through with the sword

Hel. 10:18 And began to slay one another with the sword

Hel. 13:9 Yea, I will visit them with the sword

3 Ne. 3:6 That they should visit you with the sword

Morm. 2:14 Would struggle with the sword for their lives

Morm. 6:9 They did fall upon my people with the sword

Ether 15:29 And they fought again with the sword

His Sword—

1 Ne. 4:9 I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth

1 Ne. 4:18 I smote off his head with his own sword

1 Ne. 4:19 Smitten off his head with his own sword

Mosiah 19:4 He drew his sword, and swore in his wrath

Alma 1:9 He was wroth with Gideon and drew his sword

Alma 17:37 He smote off their arms with his sword

Alma 17:37 Smiting their arms with the edge of his sword

Alma 17:38 Save it were their leader, with his sword

Alma 19:22 Angry with Ammon, drew his sword, and

Alma 20:16 He drew his sword that he might smite him

Alma 20:22 But Ammon raised his sword, and said

Alma 44:8 He came forth and delivered up his sword

Alma 44:12 Zarahemnah retained his sword, and he was

Alma 44:12 Slay Moroni, but as he raised his sword

Alma 44:13 And laid it upon the point of his sword

Ether 9:27 Father; for he slew him with his own sword

Ether 14:1 If a man should lay his tool or his sword

Ether 14:2 Every man kept the hilt of his sword there

Ether 15:5 That he might slay him with his own sword

Ether 15:30 When Coriantutor had leaned upon his sword

By the Sword—

1 Ne. 1:13 Many should perish by the sword

2 Ne 13:25 Thy men shall fall by the sword

2 Ne. 23:15 Is joined to the wicked, shall fall by the sword

Omni 1:17 Had fallen by the sword from time to time

Mosiah 22:2 Deliver themselves out of bondage by the sword

Swords—

2 Ne. 5:14 After the manner of it did make many swords

Mosiah 8:11 They have brought swords, the hilts thereof

Mosiah 9:16 I did arm them with bows . . . with swords

Mosiah 10:8 Men armed with bows . . . and with swords

Alma 2:12 They did arm themselves with swords, and

Alma 43:18 And his people were armed with swords

Alma 44:18 Were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites

Alma 44:18 Fall exceeding fast before the swords of the

Alma 60:2 Arm them with swords, and with cimeters

Hel. 1:14 Armed them with swords, and with cimeters

Ether 7:9 Made swords out of steel for those whom he

Ether 7:9 And after he had armed them with swords

HILT

1 Ne. 4:9 And the hilt thereof was of pure gold

Alma 44:12 Soldiers smote it . . . and it broke by the hilt

Ether 14:2 Every man kept the hilt of his sword

HILTS

Mosiah 8:11 Swords, the hilts thereof have perished

TOOL

Hel. 13:34 We lay a tool here, and on the morrow

Ether 14:1 If a man should lay his tool or his sword

TOOLS

1 Ne. 17:9 That I may make tools to construct the

1 Ne. 17:10 I should go to find ore, that I might make tools

1 Ne. 17:16 I did make tools of the ore which I did

Jarom 1:8 Tools of every kind to till the ground

Ether 10:25 All manner of tools to till the earth

Ether 10:26 All manner of tools with which they did

ENGRAVE

Morm. 1:4 Ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi, all

ENGRAVED

2 Ne. 5:32 I have engraved that which is pleasing

ENGRAVEN

Engraven on (or upon) the Plates of Brass

1 Ne. 3:3,12,24; 4:16; 5:10; 19:22; 22:1; 2 Ne. 4:15; 5:12; Mosiah 1:3,16; 10:16; 28:11

Engraven—

1 Ne. 9:3 An account engraven of the ministry of my people

1 Ne. 9:4 Upon the other plates should be engraven an

1 Ne. 19:1 I might engraven upon them the record of my

1 Ne. 19:1 I did engraven the record of my father

1 Ne. 19:1 Mine own prophecies have I engraven upon

1 Ne. 19:2 Proceedings in the wilderness are engraven

2 Ne. 5:30 Thou shall engraven many things upon them

2 Ne. 5:31 Upon which I have engraven these things

Jacob 1:1 Plates, upon which these things are engraven

Jacob 1:3 Should be engraven upon his other plates

Jacob 1:4 Engraven the heads of them upon these plates

Jacob 4:3 We labor diligently to engraven these words

Jarom 1:14 Upon them the record off our wars are engraven

Omni 1:11 The record of this people is engraven upon

Mosiah 21:27 And they were engraven on plates of ore

Alma 5:19 Having the image of God engraven upon your

3 Ne. 5:10 Record of Nephi, which was engraven on the plates

3 Ne. 26:11 All which were engraven on the Plates of Nephi

ENGRAVING

Jacob 4:1 Because of the difficulty of engraving our words

ENGRAVINGS

1 Ne. 4:24 That I should carry the engravings

1 Ne. 13:23 A record like unto the engravings which are

2 Ne. 5:32 They will be pleased with mine engravings

Omni 1:20 Large stone brought unto him with engravings

Omni 1:20 He did interpret the engravings by the gift

Mosiah 1:4 Therefore he could read these engravings

Mosiah 8:9 Brought twenty-four plates which were filled with engravings

Mosiah 8:11 Or the engravings that are on the plates

Mosiah 21:28 Whereby he could interpret such engravings

Alma 37:3 Plates of brass which contain these engravings

Alma 63:12 Engravings which were in the possession of Helaman

Morm. 1:3 Deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings

Evidence supporting the existence of these metals, skills, and products in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

Bellows: None

Brass: None

Breast-plates: None

Chains: None

Copper: None

Gold: None

Iron: None

Ore (mining): None

Plow-shares: None

Silver: None

Swords (metal): None

Hilts (metal): None

Engraving: None

Steel: None

Metallurgy does not appear in the region under discussion until about the ninth century A.D. None of the foregoing technical demands are met by the archaeology of the region proposed as Book of Mormon lands and places. I regard this as a major weakness in the armor of our proponents and friends. It is just as troublesome to the authors of the other correlations—those who have gone before.

I doubt that the proponents will be very convincing, if they contend that evidence of metallurgy is difficult to find and a rarity in archaeology. Where mining was practiced—as in the Old Testament world—mountains of ore and tailings have been found. Artifacts of metal have been found. Art portrays the existence of metallurgical products. Again, the score is zero. In view of the magnitude of metallurgical skills and usage in the Book of Mormon, as indicated in the citations, plenty of evidence should have turned up by now in the regions pointed to in the primary papers of this symposium, if our friends have things pinpointed.

In his newsletter, The Interamerican, dated January-February 1975, Carl B. Compton reports this interesting information:

A British-backed archaeological expedition has found and excavated in the Negev Desert of Israel the oldest known underground mines. These were copper mines so enormous and sophisticated that a team of three mining engineers had to be recruited to aid [in] the excavations. The mines comprise a network of 200 shafts and galleries penetrating the white sandstone for hundreds of yards in all directions and on several levels. Each shaft has its own air shafts, permitting the use of miner's lanterns. They date from ca. 1400 B.C. The site is located near Eilat in the Timna Valley (London Times, 8 December 1974).

Script Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of some or all of the following scripts in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite country: Cuneiform (only script used in Tower of Babel times and land—oldest and first script in the world—only one in use in Tigris-Euphrates Valley from its invention about 3500 B.C. down to 600 B.C.) for the Jaredites; Hebrew and Egyptian for the Nephites.

EGYPTIAN—Reformed

The name given to the style of characters in use in the days of Mormon in which the records were engraven on the sacred plates. These characters were greatly modified from those used by Nephi and the other earlier recorders.

Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p.258

Morm. 9:32 Which are called among us the reformed Egyptian

EGYPTIANS—The people of Egypt.

1 Ne. 1:2 Learning of the Jews, and the language of the Egyptians

1 Ne. 4:3 And to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians

1 Ne. 17:23 Led away out of the hands of the Egyptians

1 Ne. 17:27 We know that the Egyptians were drowned in

Mosiah 1:4 He having been taught in the language of the Egyptians

Alma 29:12 Who delivered them out of the hands of the Egyptians

Alma 36:28 He has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red

Hel. 8:11 The waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians

HEBREW—The language of the people of Israel

Morm. 9:33 We should have written in Hebrew

Morm. 9:33 But the Hebrew hath been altered by us also

Morm. 9:33 And if we could have written in Hebrew

WRITING

1 Ne. 6:1 Upon these plates which I am writing

1 Ne. 8:30 But to be short in writing, behold, he saw

1 Ne. 16:29 Was also written upon them, a new writing

2 Ne. 3:17 I will give judgment unto him m writing

2 Ne. 3:18 He shall write the writing of the fruit of

2 Ne. 33:1 Neither am I mighty in writing

Jacob 7:27 And I make an end of my writing

Jacob 7:27 Which writing has been small

Alma 10:2 Writing which was upon the wall of the temple

Alma 46:19 That all might see the writing which he had

3 Ne. 12:31 Let him give her a writing of divorcement

Ether 12:23 Because of our weakness in writing

Ether 12:23 Thou hast not made us mighty in writing

Ether 12:24 Thou hast not made us mighty in writing

Ether 12:40 Because of my weakness in writing

Ether 13:1 The people of whom I have been writing

WRITINGS

Jarom 1:14 According to the writings of the kings

WRITE

I write—see I write.

Write them, etc.—see Write them—unto you

Cannot Write—

1 Ne. 17:6 So much that we cannot write them all

2 Ne. 31:1 And I cannot write but a few things

2 Ne. 33:1 I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which

Jacob 4:1 And I cannot write but a little of my words

W of M 1:5 I cannot write the hundredth part of the

Morm. 8:23 Prophecies of Isaiah. Behold I cannot write them

Ether 12:23 Great, even that we cannot write them

Not Write—

1 Ne. 6:1 Wherefore I do not write it in this work1 Ne. 6:5 Pleasing unto the world, I do not write

Be Written—

2 Ne. 30:3 Come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles

Jarom 1:14 Or those which they caused to be written

Mosiah 2:8 The words which he spake, should be written

Mosiah 2:9 Which he spake and caused to be written

Mosiah 28:11 And caused to be written the records which

3 Ne. 17:17 Neither can there be written by any man

3 Ne. 19:32 Neither can be written by man the words

3 Ne. 23:13 Jesus commanded that it should be written

3 Ne. 26:18 Things, which are not lawful to be written

Ether 4:16 Caused to be written by my servant John

Moro. 9:19 Tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written

Been Written—

1 Ne. 22:30 Have been written upon the plates of brass

Omni 1:11 No revelation, save that which has been written

Alma 33:12 Scriptures which have been written by them

3 Ne. 12:33 It hath been written, that whosoever shall

3 Ne. 23:12 Remembered that this thing had not been written

3 Ne. 27:24 Which shall be, even as hath been written

3 Ne. 27:25 Out of the books which have been written

I Have Written—

1 Ne. 10:15 For I have written as many of them as

1 Ne. 14:28 Things which I have written sufficeth me

1 Ne. 14:30 The things which I have written are true

1 Ne. 19:18 I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people

2 Ne. 8:7 In whose heart I have written my law

2 Ne. 11:1 Things which I have written sufficeth me

2 Ne. 25:1 Concerning the words which I have written

2 Ne. 31:2 Wherefore the things which I have written

2 Ne. 33:3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written

2 Ne. 33:4 The words which I have written in weakness

2 Ne. 33:5 Be angry at the words which I have written

Jacob 7:26 Declaring that I have written according to

W of M 1:3 Concerning that which I have written

Alma 11:46 Or this is all that I have written

Alma 54:5 Ammoron, I have written unto you somewhat

Hel. 2:14 All the account which I have written

3 Ne. 26:8 I have written them to the intent that they

Ether 4:4 I have written upon these plates the very things

Ether 4:5 And I have written them

Ether 5:1 I, Moroni, have written the words which we

Moro. 8:6 For this intent I have written this epistle

Moro. 9:25 The things which I have written grieve thee

Moro. 10:29 That which I have written is true

Have Written—

1 Ne. 14:26 Shown all things, and they have written them

Jacob 7:11 That none of the prophets have written

Jarom 1:2 Write more than my father have written?

Morm. 9:31 Neither them who have written before him

Morm. 9:32 We have written this record according to

Morm. 9:33 Large, we should have written in Hebrew

Morm. 9:33 And if we could have written in Hebrew

Morm. 9:34 Lord knoweth the things which we have written

Ether 2:12 Manifested by the things which we have written

Ether 12:41 Jesus of whom the prophets . . . have written

Moro. 1:1 I had supposed not to have written more

Moro. 1:4 I had supposed not to have written any

Is Written—

2 Ne. 2:17 An angel . . . according to that which is written

2 Ne. 5:12 According to that which is written

2 Ne. 14:3 Every one that is written among the living

2 Ne. 29:11 Their works, according to that which is written

Omni 1:11 That which is sufficient is written

W of M 1:11 According to the word of God which is written

Alma 6:8 And thus it is written. Amen

3 Ne. 12:21 It is also written before you, that thou shalt

3 Ne. 12:27 It is written by them of old time, that thou

3 Ne. 12:33 It is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself

3 Ne. 12:38 It is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth

3 Ne. 12:43 It is written also, that thou shalt love

3 Ne. 20:36 Be brought to pass that which is written

3 Ne. 22:1 Then shall that which is written come to pass

Not Written—

1 Ne. 14:28 I have not written but a small part of the

1 Ne. 14:30 If all the things which I saw are not written

Mosiah 1:8 More things . . . which are not written in this

Mosiah 13:1 I perceive they are not written in your heart

Alma 13:31 More words . . . which are not written in this

Alma 33:15 It is not written that Zenos alone spake

Hel. 5:13 Many things which are not written

3 Ne. 7:17 Therefore they are not written in this book

3 Ne. 10:17 Are they not written upon the plates of brass

3 Ne. 23:11 How be it that ye have not written this thing

Ether 15:33 (And the hundredth part I have not written)

Which Were Written—

1 Ne. 14:23 The things which were written were plain

1 Ne. 16:27 The things which were written upon the ball

1 Ne. 19:3 The things which were written should be kept

1 Ne. 19:23 Which were written in the book of Moses

1 Ne. 19:24 Which were written unto all the house of Israel

Jacob 2:23 Because of the things which were written concerning David

3 Ne. 3:1 And these were the words which were written

Moro. 10:27 Words . . . which were written by this man

Were Written—

Mosiah 29:4 These were the words that were written

Alma 63:12 All those engravings . . . were written

3 Ne. 24:1 After they were written he expounded them

Written—

1 Ne. 1:16 Of the things which my father hath written

1 Ne. 1:16 For he hath written many things which he

1 Ne. 1:16 He also hath written many things which he

1 Ne. 16:29 There was also written upon them, a new

1 Ne. 16:29 It was written and changed from time to time

1 Ne. 19:23 Which was written by the prophet Isaiah

1 Ne. 19:24 For after this manner has the prophet written

2 Ne. 6:12 Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written

2 Ne. 6:12 For this cause the prophet has written these

2 Ne. 25:8 Wherefore, for their good have I written them

Jacob 4:4 For this intent have we written these things

W of M 1:11 For there are great things written upon them

Mosiah 5:12 Retain the name always written in your hearts

Mosiah 8:1 Only a few of them have I written in this

Mosiah 29:4 Even a written word sent he among the people

Alma 9:34 The words of Amulek are not all written

Alma 10:2 Which was written by the finger of God

Alma 44:24 Record of Alma, which was written upon the

Alma 61:8 He hath written unto the king of the Lamanites

Hel. 5:6 It is said, and also written, that they were

Hel. 5:7 That it may be said of you, and also written

Hel. 5:7 Even as it it has been said and written of them

3 Ne. 11:15 It was he, of whom it was written by the prophets

3 Ne. 23:13 Therefore it was written according as he commanded

3 Ne. 23:14 All the scriptures in one, which they had written

3 Ne. 24:16 A book of remembrance was written before

3 Ne. 26:8 These things have I written, which are a lesser

4 Ne. 1:21 And it was also written in the book of Nephi

Morm. 7:9 This is written for the intent that ye may

Morm. 8:5 And he hath written the intent thereof

Ether 12:40 Only a few have I written, because of my weakness

Moro. 8:1 Epistle of my father Mormon, written

Moro. 8:1 It was written unto me soon after my calling

WROTE

1 Ne. l:Hd Or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record

2 Ne. 4:2 The prophecies which he wrote, there are

Omni 1:9 I saw the last which he wrote

Omni 1:9 That he wrote it with his own hand

Omni 1:9 He wrote it in the day that he delivered

Mosiah 26:33 He wrote them down that he might have them

Alma 30:51 Put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor

Alma 30:52 Korihor put forth his hand and wrote

Alma 46:12 Wrote upon it, in memory of our God

Alma 46:19 Might see the writing which he had wrote

Alma 54:4 Therefore he wrote an epistle, and sent it

Alma 54:4 These are the words which he wrote unto

Evidence supporting the existence of these forms of writing—these scripts—in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

Cuneiform: None

Hebrew: For very exciting, but meager, script data just now (March 6, 1975) received, see the letter . . . from Professor George F. Carter, formerly of Johns Hopkins University and now of Texas A&M University. A seal found at Tlatilco (suburb of Mexico City) bears the Hebrew name, Hiram, apparently in Egyptian script! Carter's reference to other Old World scripts— Iberic, Carthaginian, and Libyan—found on the Atlantic coast of North America—are exciting. However, they don't help the Book of Mormon script test, which deals exclusively with Cuneiform, Hebrew, and Egyptian, to be found in the Norman-Sorenson designated territory. Proof of a voyage from Libya doesn't prove the Lehi voyage from Arabia—but it could relate to or even be the Mulek voyage! A cylinder seal found at Tlatilco, Mexico, bearing a Hebrew name, Hiram! Wow!

Egyptian: Three glyphs on a three-inch cylinder seal, found at Chiapa de Corzo, State of Chiapas, Mexico, by the New World Archaeological Foundation. Identified as Egyptian by only one great scholar, William Foxwell Albright (now deceased). Identification seriously questioned by other great scholars— because of the limited number of glyphs in the find. (Probably the biggest strike so far in support of our proponents—and the only one in this technical and demanding testing of their hypotheses.) When both proponents call upon the findings of archaeology for support—with frequent references to cultures falling within the timespan of the Book of Mormon ("Pre-Classic," "Early Classic")—it seems strange that they each failed to mention the glyphs found at Chiapa de Corzo. Perhaps each is himself not convinced that the glyphs are truly Egyptian—because of the limited number found.

It is my opinion that the script test is the most exacting and definitive and precise of all. It is good that we have the two little pieces of baked clay—on this test—the seal from Chiapa de Corzo and the seal from Tlatilco. In my opinion, they lend more support to Sorenson and Norman than all of the configuration-dimension-direction-topography writing done by these two good men and all of the rest of us put together. The references from the text of the Book of Mormon (and I have only included a portion of the many having to do with the literacy of the Jaredites and Nephites) tells us that both peoples were highly literate and on a par with the ancient Sumerians of the Babel region and the Hebrews of ancient Israel. The Sumerians left literally tons of written clay tablets. In Israel have been found the wonderful Lachish letters in early Hebrew, dating to 600 B.C., written in a fortress about thirty miles from Jerusalem—while the conquering Babylonian army was approaching the fortress. If our good friend, Garth Norman, had something like the Lachish letters to identify the Tower of Sherrizah with the Oaxaca site, Giengola, we'd be thrilled for two reasons—the tough script test would have been passed with flying colors by the hypotheses of the proponents, but we would all have our very first Book-of-Mormon place identified. And what a starting point that would be.

My friend, Howard Leigh, at the Mitla Museum in Oaxaca told me that Giengola is a very late site and that it does not fall within several hundred years of our Book of Mormon time span. He probably knows as much about the site as anyone alive. There are many hilltop fortresses dating to ancient times in Mexico. It takes a lot more than configuration-dimensions-directions-topography to prove and establish factually the identity of a particular point of terrain or topography as Sherrizah or as any other specific Book-of-Mormon place. The real and honest-to-goodness ground rules are pretty well laid down by the citations being set forth from the Book of Mormon itself—right here in this simple paper. (Certainly before Bible-world scholars make positive identifications of biblical places, they are careful to meet exacting requirements such as I am proposing here. No less is required of Book-of-Mormon-world students.)

Additional Tests—Wheels, Carriages, Carts, Chariots, and Glass

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of the following:

WHEELS

2 Ne. 15:28 And their wheels lie a whirlwind

CARRIAGES

2 Ne. 20:28 At Michmash he hath laid up his carriages19

CART

2 Ne 15:18 And sin as it were with a cart rope

CHARIOTS

2 Ne. 12:7 Neither is there any end of their chariots

Alma 18:9 They should prepare his horses and chariots

Alma 18:10 Was preparing his horses and his chariots

Alma 18:12 Had made ready the horses and the chariots

Alma 20:6 Make ready his horses, and his chariots

3 Ne. 3:22 Taken their horses, and their chariots

3 Ne. 21:14 And I will destroy thy chariots

GLASS

Ether 3:1 White and clear, even as transparent glass

GLASSES

2 Ne. 13:23 The glasses,20 and the fine linen, and hoods

Evidence supporting the existence of these cultural elements in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

Wheels: Toys with wheels, in ceramic form, are found.

Carriages: None

Carts: None

Chariots: None

Glass: None

The ceramic toys constitute the only evidence of the wheel in ancient times for the areas designated by the proponents. The great murals of Bonampak and of Teotihuacan contain no picture of carts or chariots. The innumerable stone sculptured monuments, portraying much of the ancient way of life—including sedan chairs—give us no representation of carts or chariots. None have been found portrayed in ceramics. A visit to the Cairo Museum, to the University of Pennsylvania Museum, to the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, [and] to the Field Museum in Chicago reveals to visitors undisputed and powerful evidence supporting the existence of wheels (utilitarian), carts, chariot, and works in glass (great numbers of glass vases and dishes survive, for example from ancient Egypt) from areas referenced in the Bible. Complete chariots of wood and iron have turned up in tombs at various points in the ancient Middle East.

To my knowledge no pre-Columbian glass has been found in the regions pointed to by Norman and Sorenson. The wheeled toys and the three glyphs from Chiapa de Corzo don't give our friends much of a total score for their geographical selections.

Conclusion

The evidence supporting the geographical views of Norman and Sorenson, under the exacting tests laid down by the text of the Book of Mormon, is indeed very meager. We have the cylinder seal from Chiapa de Corzo, the cylinder seal from Tlatilco and the toys with wheels. That's about all. This paucity of specific support presents, at least to me, a dilemma. One way out of the dilemma is to say that everything was scrambled and lost because of the upheavals described in 3 Nephi for the time of the crucifixion. In my personal opinion, this is not a satisfactory escape hatch. Virtually all of the data in the Book of Mormon must be credited to Mormon and his abridgment of the "larger plates." He and Moroni, writing in the fourth century (over 300 years after the crucifixion), were responsible for the last 400 pages of the text. And it is in those 400 pages that most of the geographical data appear. Mormon doesn't say that his references to geography are useless and hopeless.

Further, innumerable excavations made in the area we are dealing with, and in the time span (3000 B.C.—400 A.D.) with which we are involved, reveal great undisturbed architectural structures, extensive relatively undisturbed ancient strata, etc., etc.—right through the time of the crucifixion.

I don't have the answer to the dilemma. I just call it up.

I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong.

Respectfully submitted,

[signed] Thomas Stuart Ferguson

Thomas Stuart Ferguson

2 March 1975

[altersteve]

Well, that's just fine, except that as of 2011, many of the things that you claim have not been discovered in the Americas have, in fact, been discovered, or at least evidence to support their existence. Please, stay up-to-date with Book of Mormon scholarship before you criticize the "archaeological errors" in the book.

[Kevin Christensen]

The New World Archeological Foundation that Ferguson helped kick-start has no connection whatsoever with the Genesis of FARMS, which started as a discussion in a carpool, thanks to John W. Welch.

Around 2004, Brant Gardner commented that the knowledge necessary to test the Book of Mormon in a New World context had only been discovered in the past 30 years. Which, if you, do the math, shows that Ferguson gave up too soon. And besides that, his thinking was sloppy.

For example:

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of the following:

WHEELS

2 Ne. 15:28 And their wheels lie a whirlwind

Just because Isaiah wrote about wheels does not mean that the Book of Mormon requires them. The text never mentions them. And even the limited mentions of New World chariots as ceremonial royal transport, and never in battle, does not require them. Welch pointed out that the Hebrew that translates as "chariot" means "riding thing."

Relying on Ferguson and his lists at this late date is silly. Compare Ferguson's method with that of John Clark, or Diane Wirth, or Brant Gardner, or John Sorenson, or, our latest LDS Ph.D. with a Mesoamerican interest, Mark Wright (aka Hashbaz), and you might get the idea.

Look up Larry Poulson's identification of the Grijalva as the Sidon, or Brant Gardner's arguments about Teotihuican as location where cement use appears at the right time and place, and how such things converge with many others.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/

Gardner here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006-Brant-Gardner.pdf

Wright, for instance:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2008-Mark-Wright.pdf

And try this to get a bit more up to speed on stuff that Ferguson is way way behind on. Sorenson published a much much briefer version of the following paper back in 1975. A lot has been learned.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp195_mesoamerica.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Craig Paxton]

Well, that's just fine, except that as of 2011, many of the things that you claim have not been discovered in the Americas have, in fact, been discovered, or at least evidence to support their existence. Please, stay up-to-date with Book of Mormon scholarship before you criticize the "archaeological errors" in the book.

CFR on your claims???

[Craig Paxton]

The New World Archeological Foundation that Ferguson helped kick-start has no connection whatsoever with the Genesis of FARMS, which started as a discussion in a carpool, thanks to John W. Welch.

Around 2004, Brant Gardner commented that the knowledge necessary to test the Book of Mormon in a New World context had only been discovered in the past 30 years. Which, if you, do the math, shows that Ferguson gave up too soon. And besides that, his thinking was sloppy.

For example:

Just because Isaiah wrote about wheels does not mean that the Book of Mormon requires them. The text never mentions them. And even the limited mentions of New World chariots as ceremonial royal transport, and never in battle, does not require them. Welch pointed out that the Hebrew that translates as "chariot" means "riding thing."

Relying on Ferguson and his lists at this late date is silly. Compare Ferguson's method with that of John Clark, or Diane Wirth, or Brant Gardner, or John Sorenson, or, our latest LDS Ph.D. with a Mesoamerican interest, Mark Wright (aka Hashbaz), and you might get the idea.

Look up Larry Poulson's identification of the Grijalva as the Sidon, or Brant Gardner's arguments about Teotihuican as location where cement use appears at the right time and place, and how such things converge with many others.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/

Gardner here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006-Brant-Gardner.pdf

Wright, for instance:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2008-Mark-Wright.pdf

And try this to get a bit more up to speed on stuff that Ferguson is way way behind on. Sorenson published a much much briefer version of the following paper back in 1975. A lot has been learned.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp195_mesoamerica.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

So u're siding with a Nuanced Truth rather than a face value Truth...

BTW..I will certainly read these links. thank you

Edited August 2, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[morgan.deane]

So u're siding with a Nuanced Truth rather than a face value Truth...

BTW..I will certainly read these links. thank you

I second what has been said already but this "nuanced" vs. "face value" is rather annoying. It seems to mimic the anti mormon tactic of taking a wholly superficial reading (or straw man interpretation) of the BoM and then demanding that evidence comply with that perception of the text. It also seems to imply that those who study the book more indepth (or seek "nuance") are some how "twisting" the text or "grasping at straws" in order to save it. I'm simply trying to understand this transformative book as much as I can.

The BoM is no less truthful (and I am no less faithful) because I research and realize the swords that the Nephites used does not match our assumptions taken from movies and artistic interpretation. Silk can mean any fine thread and still make the text just as true. In fact I do the same thing with many other ancient documents and nobody bats an eye. Research into the BoM seems to be the only area where yahoos who rarely read the entire book let alone the secondary research get to determine what is the "faithful" or "appropriate" reading of the text.

Edited August 2, 2011 by morgan.deane

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

BTW..I will certainly read these links. thank you

I hope you do. You will find that many things have indeed been found.

Lets say we find all of the items listed. Would you believe in the BoM? I doubt you would.

[Craig Paxton]

I hope you do. You will find that many things have indeed been found.

Lets say we find all of the items listed. Would you believe in the BoM? I doubt you would.

Never say never. IF a bronzed aged civilization like the one described in the Book of Mormon where to somehow be discovered to have existed in the Americas...lets jsut say that it would go a long way in dispelling doubts. But I think we both know that no such civilization will ever be discovered. The difference between you and me is that you can hold belief without supporting physical evidence while I require evidence to support belief.

Can anyone ever imaging giving such a wide birth, as is givin to the Book of Mormon claimed civilizations, to a belief in the existance of the Roman Empire IF there were no or shall I say equal supporting evidence for Romes existance as we have for the Nephite/Lamanite civilizations? I think not.

If there were no religious basis for a belief in the claimed civilizations of the Book of Mormon...I seriously doubt anyone who post here would claim a firm belief in such.

[ldsfaqs]

Hey Craig...... Watch these videos, especially pay attention to the list in the last one.

Get on the path of actual truth, rather than anti-mormon bearing false witness.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

[Brant Gardner]

So u're siding with a Nuanced Truth rather than a face value Truth...

How about sophisticated versus naive? My first issue is in the way the question is couched. Second, your long repetition simply accepts Ferguson as an authity, which he was not.

The very first question that should be asked is why you assume that one must take literally anEngish description translating a unknown language. There is enough data on this type of issue that a reasonable scholarly approach requires that kind of understanding, which you dichotomy ignores.

I prefer a more reasonable scholarly approach.

[Craig Paxton]

Hey Craig...... Watch these videos, especially pay attention to the list in the last one.

Get on the path of actual truth, rather than anti-mormon bearing false witness.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Problems problems problems and you see this as TRUTH? Really? More like grasping at staws

You’re not seriously suggesting that John Clarks claims are based in any reality are you? Seriously? The East Sea being north? The West Sea being south? The Olmec’s = the Jaradites? That the Maya = the Nephites? Really?

Clarks did say something that stood out...” our bias in favor of the Book of Mormon is obvious so take the numbers as you like”

Clark takes a 10,000 year old horse as evidence for horses being in the Americas during the Book of Mormon timeline? Really this is meets your definition of truth? And he uses this as a “hit”??? Seriously?

Sorry you’re selling, but I’m not buying…and I’d love to believe…but not even I can stretch a claim to fit these claims as well as Clark can.

[Brant Gardner]

You’re not seriously suggesting that John Clarks claims are based in any reality are you?

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You swallow Ferguson's statement but doubt Clark? Are you aware of the vast difference in their understanding of Mesoamerica? You are taking the equivalent of a High School teacher's word and dismissing Einstein (not exactly, but that is the rough idea).

[Danite3459]

Old stuff and errors galore.

As a starting place one can begin with these:

On the New World Archaeological Foundation

Daniel Peterson, "On the New World Archaeological Foundation," FARMS Review 16/1 (2004): 221-34.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=1&id=532

On Ferguson's issues

John Gee, "The Hagiography of the Doubting Thomas," FARMS Review 10/2 (1998): 158-83.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=10&num=2&id=296

also

Daniel Peterson and Matthew Roper, "Ein Heldenleben? On Thomas Stuart Ferguson as an Elias for Cultural Mormons," FARMS Review 16/1 (2004): 175-220.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=1&id=531

[Storm Rider]

I don't believe in Jesus Christ because his cross was found, the uppre room was found, or that I have seen where he was entombed. I believe in Jesus Christ because God revealed his Son to me. I know that he lives and that he died for me. I know the Book of Mormon to be true for the same reason. Why would I or anyone put their faith in the arm of flesh?

If we use the same standard for Jesus Christ that you use for the Book of Mormon, we would have to conclude that Jesus did not exist. Historians, nor anyone else, can prove he existed. Use the same standard for all things or realize that your real issue is that you just don't have any faith in it nor do you want to find out if it is true.

[jmordecai]

I don't believe in Jesus Christ because his cross was found, the uppre room was found, or that I have seen where he was entombed. I believe in Jesus Christ because God revealed his Son to me. I know that he lives and that he died for me. I know the Book of Mormon to be true for the same reason. Why would I or anyone put their faith in the arm of flesh?

If we use the same standard for Jesus Christ that you use for the Book of Mormon, we would have to conclude that Jesus did not exist. Historians, nor anyone else, can prove he existed. Use the same standard for all things or realize that your real issue is that you just don't have any faith in it nor do you want to find out if it is true.

I’m afraid the reasoning you are applying here is backwards. Using this logic above, we must conclude that Socrates, Pontius Pilate, Herod, and virtually every ancient historical person did not exist. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best documented of any ancient historical person.

1. Unlike the Book of Mormon, which appears suddenly in 1830, we have a succession of data about Jesus Christ that we can trace from today backwards. If you want to discredit Christ, you’ll have to discredit Peter, Paul and John, who all wrote about him. When you are done with them, you’ll have to discredit Clement, Josephus, Irenaeus, Martyr, etc., etc.

2. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the places named in the Bible. Whole nations like Egypt, Etheopia, Italy, etc. Cities like Jerusalem, Rome, and even as granular as street names (Straight street is still there) and pools (Bethsesda, Siloam). The temple wall is there. We know that Romans took the menorah from it, as they carved an image of it in the Arch of Titus in Rome. The list goes on and on.

3. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the cultures in the Bible, including those extinct like the Canaanites, etc. We have nothing on the Lamanites and Nephites.

4. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the languages used. Reformed Egyptian remains unidentified.

5. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we have thousands of ancient copies of the biblical texts, and we could compile the scriptures just from the quotes of the early church fathers. There are no ancient extant copies, fragments, inscriptions, engravings, parchments, scrolls, quotations, etc., that can be linked to the Book of Mormon before 1830.

Of course none of these prove that Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection will forgive your sins, but they do give us a basis of historical probability by which to place our faith that he did. Faith requires a foundation of facts to place it on. Otherwise, if Jesus Christ is mere myth, and did not really exist, then all the faith we have is worthless. The lack of Book of Mormon evidences lends support to the conclusion that it is a work of fiction.

[Storm Rider]

I’m afraid the reasoning you are applying here is backwards. Using this logic above, we must conclude that Socrates, Pontius Pilate, Herod, and virtually every ancient historical person did not exist. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best documented of any ancient historical person.

.....

I hate to tell you this, but there is absolutely none, as in zero, nada, nothing historical that supports the resurrection of Jesus Christ; this is only, solely a matter of faith. Further, there are no contempory writings that support Jesus' existence. If you have it, please put it out there for the world. The ONLY way to know Jesus is through faith.

It is strange to see this kind of thinking so often in other Christians. They make this grand leap of logic that because Jerusalem exists Jesus existed. They don't even know that history does not support the majority of the Bible record. Only that today they can read history and know that Egypt is real, Israel is real, therefore all the Bible is real. They don't really seek to live by faith, but by what they can touch and see. Where does this type of thinking come from in Christianity? Is it just a mistake of lay people or is it something in the way they teach the gospel?

[urroner]

I’m afraid the reasoning you are applying here is backwards. Using this logic above, we must conclude that Socrates, Pontius Pilate, Herod, and virtually every ancient historical person did not exist. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best documented of any ancient historical person.

1. Unlike the Book of Mormon, which appears suddenly in 1830, we have a succession of data about Jesus Christ that we can trace from today backwards. If you want to discredit Christ, you’ll have to discredit Peter, Paul and John, who all wrote about him. When you are done with them, you’ll have to discredit Clement, Josephus, Irenaeus, Martyr, etc., etc.

2. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the places named in the Bible. Whole nations like Egypt, Etheopia, Italy, etc. Cities like Jerusalem, Rome, and even as granular as street names (Straight street is still there) and pools (Bethsesda, Siloam). The temple wall is there. We know that Romans took the menorah from it, as they carved an image of it in the Arch of Titus in Rome. The list goes on and on.

3. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the cultures in the Bible, including those extinct like the Canaanites, etc. We have nothing on the Lamanites and Nephites.

4. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we can identify the languages used. Reformed Egyptian remains unidentified.

5. Unlike the Book of Mormon, we have thousands of ancient copies of the biblical texts, and we could compile the scriptures just from the quotes of the early church fathers. There are no ancient extant copies, fragments, inscriptions, engravings, parchments, scrolls, quotations, etc., that can be linked to the Book of Mormon before 1830.

By your standards, the Odyssey by Homer must be non-fiction and true. Interesting.

[CV75]

Former head

Yes, the Book of Mormon, taken at face value, is true. When someone I trust hands me a book and says it is good, I begin to read it assuming and expecting it to be good. Of course while or after reading it, I find out for myself that it is either good or not. Now the "someone I trust" could include the hand of God or the Light of Christ leading me to the book, as well as a person who may or may not have my best interests at heart.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Of course none of these prove that Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection will forgive your sins, but they do give us a basis of historical probability by which to place our faith that he did. Faith requires a foundation of facts to place it on. Otherwise, if Jesus Christ is mere myth, and did not really exist, then all the faith we have is worthless. The lack of Book of Mormon evidences lends support to the conclusion that it is a work of fiction.

Actually it does nothing of the sort. If we look at all of your examples and then look at the movie Forest Gump, surly he existed and that whole movie is a documentary?

And there really is not a lack of evidence for the BoM. The biggest issue is that we don't even have the original names of Mesoamerican sites. Tell me, how do you propose to know the original names of these sites? They have been washed from history. And many of the things on Ferguson's list have been found.

I hope you see the issue of such faulty logic. IOW just because you can find a site does not mean that all of what a book contains is true. Similarly, just because you cannot find a certain site does not mean that a book is false.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Of course none of these prove that Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection will forgive your sins, but they do give us a basis of historical probability by which to place our faith that he did. Faith requires a foundation of facts to place it on. Otherwise, if Jesus Christ is mere myth, and did not really exist, then all the faith we have is worthless. The lack of Book of Mormon evidences lends support to the conclusion that it is a work of fiction.

Actually it does nothing of the sort. If we look at all of your examples and then look at the movie Forest Gump, surly he existed and that whole movie is a documentary?

And there really is not a lack of evidence for the BoM. The biggest issue is that we don't even have the original names of Mesoamerican sites. Tell me, how do you propose to know the original names of these sites? They have been washed from history. And many of the things on Ferguson's list have been found.

I hope you see the issue of such faulty logic. IOW just because you can find a site does not mean that all of what a book contains is true. Similarly, just because you cannot find a certain site does not mean that a book is false.

[Whiskeypete]

1. Using BofM passages that are quotes from the Bible as a sign of BofM anachronisms is pretty disingenious.
   
2. You basically lost me when the evidence of Gold was listed as: Gold: None. REALLY!!! What was it that the Spaniards were after?
   
3. I think that if you actually take the Book of Mormon at face value (i.e. what the text actually says vs what your Sunday School/seminary teacher interpreted it to say) you'll find it much more plausible. (But I don't want to rehash two cumorahs/lgt/etc here.
   

[jmordecai]

I hate to tell you this, but there is absolutely none, as in zero, nada, nothing historical that supports the resurrection of Jesus Christ; this is only, solely a matter of faith.

Wrong. To start, we have eyewitness accounts from Peter, Paul, John and Luke to name a few.

Further, there are no contempory writings that support Jesus' existence.

Please define “contemporary”, and how specifically you apply this criteria to all of ancient history.

The ONLY way to know Jesus is through faith.

You are putting the horse before the carrot. Do we learn to put faith in Christ in a vacuum? Or do we get this notion through the ancient historical texts that tell us this?

It is strange to see this kind of thinking so often in other Christians. They make this grand leap of logic that because Jerusalem exists Jesus existed.

It’s rather simple. Christianity rests on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This must be a real event in human history or the whole thing is a fraud. Christianity therefore must be real in both the spiritual and the physical. Therefore the real world facts must also support it. That Jerusalem exists is yet another tangible in the credibility column.

That we can’t find Zarahemla, let alone the geography (take your pick: Mesoamerica, Great Lakes, New York); identify any Nephite/Lamanite cultures; identify Reformed Egyptian, etc. all line up for me in the fictional column. The preponderance of the evidence leads to a rejection of its alleged authenticity.

They don't really seek to live by faith, but by what they can touch and see.

That’s insulting.

Because I defend that Christianity encompasses all dimensions of life, doesn’t diminish those aspects that require faith. I reject the notion that everything about Christianity is unseen. For example, if Christianity is true, then its teachings must work and produce tangible beneficial results. For example, some religions teachings result in the spread of diseased rats and cows—no thanks.

Actually it does nothing of the sort. If we look at all of your examples and then look at the movie Forest Gump, surly he existed and that whole movie is a documentary?

Your comparison is lost on me. One admits its fiction, the other does not.

And there really is not a lack of evidence for the BoM. The biggest issue is that we don't even have the original names of Mesoamerican sites. Tell me, how do you propose to know the original names of these sites? They have been washed from history.

First this assumes the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, a geography your church does not endorse. It’s pointless for me to comment on speculation.

I hope you see the issue of such faulty logic. IOW just because you can find a site does not mean that all of what a book contains is true. Similarly, just because you cannot find a certain site does not mean that a book is false.

So I understand the LDS position, given Storm Rider’s statement that “They don't even know that history does not support the majority of the Bible record.”

The preponderance of biblical evidences suggests its record is false?

The preponderance of Book of Mormon evidences suggests its true?

[jmordecai]

1. Using BofM passages that are quotes from the Bible as a sign of BofM anachronisms is pretty disingenious.
   
   How so if the biblical texts were written after 600 BC?

[thesometimesaint]

jmordecai:

Post hoc apocraphal stories from secondary and tirtiary scorces, rewriten innumeral times really do not make for good evidence for Resurrecttion.

[jmordecai]

jmordecai:

Post hoc apocraphal stories from secondary and tirtiary scorces, rewriten innumeral times really do not make for good evidence for Resurrecttion.

I'm not sure what texts you are referring to, but if you are referring to the letters of Paul, Peter and John... if they are not good evidences for the Resurrection, then they are not good evidences for anything. By shooting down the Resurrection, you are also shooting down the very teachings that one must place faith in Jesus Christ, as you can't have one without the other, and both come from the same sources.