Taken At Face Value...Is The Book Of Mormon True

[SAVELLI]

Well that puts the idea of there being no native American grapes to rest.

I knew since 1978 that some fruits and plants of Canada, in Montreal, were from WILD origin, even being like of European - Israel aspect, as some apple and grapes. Also there are onions, garlic, blue"berry", "morus" (it is a hebrew name, mr: nephitic/sabellic,?), figs, etc. Because my wife and I asked about them, in a kind of botanical garden we were visiting in our return trip from London to San Francisco and we stopped in many places, as Quebec, Montreal, Buffalo, Chicago, ...SLC,... (we were living in Berkeley and studying at the University of California, where I got my M.Sc. in Sanitary Engineer and started my PhD). They couldn't explain how the same plant species could had come from Europe and Israel to Canada, but they were not exactly the same modern variety, but some wild varieties. We had none idea that Book of Mormon could be real thing.

There are persons that think that Geography is just something related to MAPS, to topography. In fact it is very BROAD WIDENED information linked to the position of a given place and that information changes through time (needs frequent updating). We have something like geographic information system (GIS), geographical information system.

A geographic information system (GIS) lets us visualize, question, analyze, interpret, and understand data in many ways that reveal relationships, patterns, and trends in the form of maps, globes, reports, and charts. They point out for a serious scientist that Book of Mormon is not telling us that Nephites' kingdom and lends were anywhere from Mexico to somewhere in Central America. In fact they suffered with the collapse of Nephitic empire, but "later on", out of the pages of Book of Mormon.

It is very clear, from the information provided you in my last post about NATIVE WILD GRAPES, that they were only living in WESTERN USA and in CANADA. If they were brought by the NEPHITES and unloaded at the harbor of N.Y. (at the gateway for LIBERTY LAND... with the "virtual STATUE of LIBERTY" as verbal WARNING from leaders), and being the NEPHITES KINGDOM basically in the WESTERN PART of the USA, it is natural that the GRAPES were cultivated in the NEPHITES KINGDOM LANDS. Quite like a GEOGRAPHIC "GIS" relationship, a LINK between one event (the cultivation) and other (the weather, climate, soil, mapping, etc.). It is very interesting that the GRAPES didn't go (in their CULTIVATION) to the WEST COAST, as to CALIFORNIA, as to the NAPA VALLEY. Where I visited the GRAPES plantation and even some WINE industries as ALMADEN, where I got quite "high", while visiting the industrial plant (with other coleagues and professors of the Univ. of California... technical visit). There is a wine with the brand name SAVELLI. Maybe it has some 2,600 years brand name... (not so "special" flavor. Maybe we need some more 2,000 years to learn the right "recipe").

In the case of FIGS, probably they already became HYBRIDS with other varieties that came from Europe and Middle East, because it is very easy for them generate hybrids as result of easy polinization process. It is like the original European Bees "disappearing" by assimilation with their reproduction with African Bees causing their "assimilation" and thus the original population of European Bees "disappears" after the "contact", quite like we had with the contact of "native figs" (from Nephites period) with recent Immigrants (after year 1,500) and their imported new variety of figs.

What about replace FIGS by APPLES?

http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/nativetrees.htm Wild Apples / crab apples

See such WILD NATIVE INDIAN APPLES: http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/images/indigenesetforestiers/pommetiercomp.jpg

Our trees are grown from seeds and their small fruits are hence variable. They are great pollinators of grafted apples. The spring flower show is spectacular and the small fruit, having a very high pectin content help make great jellies.

Apples, History and Legends of Apples, Apple Recipes, Apple ... -

whatscookingamerica.net/Fruit/Apples.htm - There are between 25 to 30 kinds of wild apples grown throughout the world with seven ... Crab apple trees are the only native apples to the United States. ...

Cranberry (native Wild APPLES) see them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cranberries20101210.jpg

Cranberries are low, creeping shrubs or vines up to 2 metres (7 ft) long and 5 to 20 centimetres (2 to 8 in) in height;^[2] they have slender, wiry stems that are not thickly woody and have small evergreen leaves. The flowers are dark pink, with very distinct reflexed petals, leaving the style and stamens fully exposed and pointing forward. They are pollinated by bees. The fruit is a berry that is larger than the leaves of the plant; it is initially white, but turns a deep red when fully ripe. It is edible, with an acidic taste that can overwhelm its sweetness. They can be found in acidic bogs throughout the cooler regions of the Northern Hemisphere

HAVE IN MIND THAT THE APPLES BECAME CULTIVATED BY THE NEPHITES, THUS IN NEPHITIC LANDS AND KINGDOM:

Cranberries are a major commercial crop in certain American states and Canadian provinces (see cultivation and uses below). Most cranberries are processed into products such as juice, sauce, and sweetened dried cranberries, with the remainder sold fresh to consumers. Cranberry sauce is regarded an indispensable part of traditional American and Canadian Thanksgiving menus and some European winter festivals

Vaccinium macrocarpon or Oxycoccus macrocarpus (Large cranberry, American Cranberry, Bearberry) native to northeastern North America (eastern Canada, and eastern United States, south to North Carolina at high altitudes = COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE). It differs from V. oxycoccos in the leaves being larger, 10–20 mm long, and in its slightly apple-like taste.

Vaccinium erythrocarpum or Oxycoccus erythrocarpus (Southern Mountain Cranberry) native to southeastern North America at high altitudes (COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE)in the southern Appalachian Mountains, and also in eastern Asia.

Etymology and history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry

The name cranberry derives from "craneberry", first named by early European settlers in America who felt the expanding flower, stem, calyx, and petals resembled the neck, head, and bill of a crane. Another name used in northeastern Canada is mossberry. The traditional English name for Vaccinium oxycoccos, fenberry, originated from plants found growing in fen (marsh) lands. In 17th century New England cranberries were sometimes called "bearberries" as bears were often seen feeding on them.

In North America, Native Americans were the first to use cranberries as food. Native Americans used cranberries in a variety of foods, especially for pemmican, wound medicine and dye. Calling the red berries Sassamanash ---> (SASSA MANAH = MANAH SASSA), natives may have introduced cranberries to starving English settlers in Massachusetts who incorporated the berries into traditional Thanksgiving feasts. American Revolutionary War veteran Henry Hall is credited as first to farm cranberries in the Cape Cod town of Dennis around 1816. In the 1820s cranberries were shipped to Europe.^[6] Cranberries became popular for wild harvesting in the Nordic countries and Russia. In Scotland, the berries were originally wild-harvested but with the loss of suitable habitat, the plants have become so scarce that this is no longer done

Thus, we can "see" other evidence that PLANTS from the COLD to TEMPERATE climate were linked in their spatial distribution, over the USA and CANADA, to the same distribution of NEPHITES and LAMANITES over the same GEOGRAPHIC political boundaries for such kingdoms, as provided by the Book of Mormon and True Authorities.

That is GIS in action, in movement, into practice. Making what could be dispersed information, making a coherent data bank and dynamic, for an useful purpose.

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI, M.Sc. U.California Berkeley, 1978.

[Robert F. Smith]

You assert that the NWAF was in no sense a Book of Mormon investigative enterprise...Really? Instead of dating Ferguson's daughter you should have talked with Ferguson. One of NWAF's founding archaeology advisory board members, Alfred V. Kidder, described the purpose of NWAF "...is to carry on explorations and excavations to add to knowledge of Mesoamerican archaeology and to test the several theories as to the origin of the high civilizations of the Americas:(1)That they were autochthonous [indigenous]; (2) that, as set forth in the Book of Mormon, they were derived from ancient Israel..." seems you were misinformed.

I was not misinformed at all, although it is true that when Ferguson first formed the NWAF back in the 1950s as a California non-profit he wanted those principles to guide it, and Kidder (a non-Mormon anthropologist) merely reflected Ferguson's ideas. However, as soon as the LDS Church began funding the NWAF, as I pointed out, any Book of Mormon connection was immediately quashed.

I respectfully stand corrected if I am mistaken regarding NWAF'S connection with FARMS...BUT...the reality again does NOT support your assurtion. It appears that F.A.R.M.S. and NWAF had quite a cozy relationship, with F.A.R.M.S. often funding the activities of NWAF. see CFR second paragraph for one example. http://maxwellinstit...=8&num=1&id=181

So your assurtion of not having the remotest connection to FARMS seems misplaced and not based in the "remotest" reality.

The "reality" is that there was no "cozy relationship" whatsoever, and the BYU NWAF has always had its own Church and BYU sources of funding. Most FARMS people did not even know the NWAF people.

The instance you cite, in which NWAF director John Clark writes an article published by the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies in 1999 stating that a FARMS grant aided in the production of a new drawing by the NWAF of Izapa Stele 5 would be the only instance of a FARMS grant being given to a NWAF effort. I am surprised that it was even given, since the NWAF has its own resources available for such work. Perhaps some travel expenses were defrayed. That this translates to "often" or "cozy" for you raises serious questions about your interpretive ability and about the a priori effect of disconfirmation bias in your thinking.

Another generalized assertion...you have no idea WHAT I am aware of...and with the exception of some small grass-like grain (Hordeum pusillum) which church apologists like to claim as a "hit" since it is often referred to as little barley, but calling it little barley does not make it barley...in fact it remains a grass...for the most part, Fergusons list remains intact...yes even since 1975...so who needs catching up?

I am happy to see that you are making some effort to catch up, but it is clear from your frequently erroneous assertions that you are unaware of most of the important developments in Book of Mormon research since 1975, and I am not even sure that you are aware of anything important before that date. Such matters are not mastered in a day or two, and as the non-Mormon scholars Mosser & Owen concluded in their 1998 Trinity Journal article, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?" the actual available research is of very high quality and is regularly ignored by Evangelical anti-Mormon polemicists -- very much to their own detriment (see link). For such, the 1975 "Ferguson list remains intact."

As for barley, which non-Mormon scholars believe was cultivated in the Americas (as the article cited above should have informed you), of course it is a grass -- as are all grains of whatever kind. Biologists class all grains as grasses (link).

[Robert F. Smith]

We are to make comments on the FORUM tittled "TAKEN at FACE VALUE... Is the Book of Mormon True,

or must it be nuanced to make it so?

Respectfully submitted,

[signed] Thomas Stuart Ferguson

Thomas Stuart Ferguson

2 March 1975

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

Great sardonic satire, Savelli.

[SAVELLI]

Great sardonic satire, Savelli.

A "STRANGE VIEWPOINT" of the GEOGRAPHY of the BOOK OF MORMON based on FIRST HAND information provided by the very FIRST LEADERS and PROPHETS.

From that and from Book of Mormon itself we conclude that CUMORAH is "ON the EAST SEA", thus quite on shore line of ONTARIO LAKE, which is the EAST SEA, as it is EAST side of NIAGARA ISTHMUS (the narrow strip of land separating EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE to the WEST SEA=ERIE LAKE and ERIE LAKE is WEST sided in relation to the ONTARIO LAKE=EAST SEA and of ISTHMUS of NIAGARA...). In fact for long time I was responsible (also) for TOPOGRAPHIC SERVICES and GEODESIC SERVICES and HIGH PRECISION MAPPING SERVICES, etc. (advanced GEOGRAPHY provider services...), having been Technical Director of one good Mapping Company and also one share holder of it, in Brazil. Thus I am able to reason as a SCIENTIST that is no RELIGIOUSLY BIASED, but REASON based on TECHNICAL EVIDENCES. As when having to decide about the LIMITS of properties (as farms) when their old property maps and memorial describing their primitive limits are "gone" and landmarks ALSO... And some good information must be retrieved as if by the work of INVESTIGATORS, of forensic detective... Maybe the road or river pathway was changed in decades or over more than a century since the property was bought and now there is a litigation going on. What was the correct GEOGRAPHY for that region, for their land limits? No LDS.

Knowing that the NEPHITIC KINGDOM was from the CUMORAH HILL, and beyound, going to N.Y. State and N.Y. town itself (the "gate" for LIBERTY LAND, with the Liberty Statue herself providing the WELCOME at the HARBOR...), and looking at the TOPOGRAPHIC information provided in the Book of Mormon, with eyes of TOPOGRAPHS, we can quite easily conclude what will be presented BELOW. The position of ZARAHemla (a hybrid JEW-ARAB name, of Mulekites+Arab crew and ARAB WOMEN... WOW!) fort town and the position of main road going to CUMORAH and how it was linked to the town of ZARAHemla, by INDIAN trails. Thus we are to start with the INDIAN TRAILS and ZarahEMLA. That is a quite nice TOPOGRAPHIC work, as it provides an easy way to find and locate town, even the ones that SUNK into the SEA (GREAT LAKES... as some INDIANS TRAIL have their pathway going INTO the SEA...). HUM!!! You can see, in the proper site about 1921 BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY ...., how retrieving the INDIAN TRAILS provided the location of MANTI town (nowadays DETROIT town, USA) and of the quite nearby hill where we have the RIPLIANCUM splendid and vast VIEW of the WEST SEA and some more waters, as SIDON RIVER passing by MANTI TOWN and HURON LAKE (North Sea) and more... and the position where the Lamanites, that were killed trying to cross SIDON RIVER and reaching the other margin, where SANK into the WEST SEA (lake ERIE, which is SIDON RIVER "LENTHIC").

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d1af7cde164187e5ad18528e4927abbd966a00094293091ca2a60857d1a9ba846g.jpg very ENLARGED image

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d1af7cde164187e5ad18528e4927abbd966a00094293091ca2a60857d1a9ba844g.jpg not so ENLARGED image.

You can see the SIDON RIVER (NIAGARA RIVER) in its final pathway, from down part to upper part of your video screen, discharging into the EAST SEA, EASTERN SEA, which is LAKE ONTARIO. On very top is the start of the NIAGARA LAKE, and on LEFT of it we have a MODERN CANADIAN TOWN (militar fort) that in past was a MULEKITE town, the ZARAHemla town and fort, that was protected by the high walls and fast water velocity of Niagara River (thus the existence of modern fort, in both sides). In the right side, USA side, it was sited the Indian trail going (upward) toward CUMORAH HILL. And if downward it was a way to go, through SUSPENDED BRIDGE, to ZARAHemla. Or through boats in Erie Lake, facing the NAVY of the Zarahemla Forces (Army).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/5a5e22a6a7012b97644dbdb0a254a47bd5e05f4ddc7c57eafc32fda4376931fa6g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/5a5e22a6a7012b97644dbdb0a254a47bd5e05f4ddc7c57eafc32fda4376931fa4g.jpg quite reduced size image.

You can see, encircled by a thick yellow line, more or less the limits of the OLD ZARAHEMLA town, now built with a modern Canadian town (fort). You can see also the Indian trails, along both margins of the Niagara River (Sidon River "LOTHIC condition") in the way they were going to ZARAHEMLA and to CUMORAH HILL and others places. It is evident that modern construction and agricultural uses of the land destroy the evidences of such old Indian trails.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/099f382f5e06cb9817040abf3e10bc69faa0259398649d5a25478ca39fe5d47a6g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/099f382f5e06cb9817040abf3e10bc69faa0259398649d5a25478ca39fe5d47a4g.jpg smaller sized image

You can see we moved upstream, to the mouth of ERIE LAKE into the NIAGARA RIVER while keeping the discharge of NIAGARA RIVER into the ONTARIO LAKE. Thus now this map is showing the whole ISTHMUS of NIAGARA. The paradise for the USA and CANADIAN turism industry with NIAGARA FALLS... Even we went there. Very beautiful.

Please, pay attention to your LEFT, to a CHANNEL that is the WELLAND CHANNEL, build in the SHORTEST DISTANCE between WEST SEA and EAST SEA (ERIE LAKE and ONTARIO LAKE) through the NARROWEST of the NECK of the LAND separating them.... Thus such CHANNEL is exactly following the PATHWAY described in the Book of Mormon, in great detail, as the distance a Nephite would take one and a half day to walk... BE SMART scientist eating and drinking too much bitter salt: unhealthy. Such channel was also built to transport a huge flow of FRESH WATEER to supply it for hydropówer generation at the binational hydroelectric (USA-CANADIAN) at the shoreline of ONTARIO LAKE. Why was it built at the shortest distance possible, that of BOOK OF MORMON? I am engineer, but if a ROAD can be made in a shorter distance, it will cost less, as a normal rule of good engineering... Thus you try to have the least distance pathway between two points, not making unnecessary curves...

Look at what happens just after (downstream) of NIAGARA FALLS.... HUM? DEVIL HOLES? Guess right? WRONG. Two huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES, as those built by the BRIDGES in PERU, with NEPHITES technology... HUM! NEPHITES technology? WOW? But Nephites had disappeared... Are you sure? I am nephite descandent: Guarany.

Look at the MAP, just some little downstream the falls of Niagara Falls (going upward in your screen), and you will see two parallel GREEN LINES crossing the NIAGARA RIVER (just at the "left" of the word JERSON, which is in the right side of Niagara River...). Such two lines, in vivid briliant green, are two SUSPENDED BRIDGES. Going upward, you are following Niagara River downstream, reaching the discharge into ONTARIO LAKE, which is on very top of the map. At the left side of discharge is ZARAHEMLA. The place for the "confort, relief" of captain ZARAH. After sufferings in bringuing such crew and passengers to such place of relief of pains and sufferings. In modernity ZARAHEMLA is "FORT GEORGE", militar town of CANADA, which was totally made in WOOD (also as many USA fort towns). Thus Book of Mormon is correct, that STONE was not required to make towns or even FORT TOWNS in cold places and where wood is abundant. So false WISES teach wrong about HOUSING by Nephites. MANTI should had been made totally in wood and Earth reinforcements (hills + ditches).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/fbde46c27499fc08063df924cf591bd27275a5ab66d28fc51d43131988a1e7196g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/fbde46c27499fc08063df924cf591bd27275a5ab66d28fc51d43131988a1e7194g.jpg small sized image

You can see an INCA SUSPENDED BRIDGE, in Peru, quite like GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE of San Francisco, USA. But made with INDIAN (NEPHITIC) TECHNOLOGY. Maybe the technology came originally from the JAREDITES and was improved and enlartged by the Nephites.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/a2c12b658350119bfc2236a4bad2fb3a88393a01ef86fd278a2f1cce1977f9876g.jpg very enlarged map

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/a2c12b658350119bfc2236a4bad2fb3a88393a01ef86fd278a2f1cce1977f9874g.jpg smaller sized image

http://www.wikimapia.org/#y=43127987&x=-79057220&z=15&I=0&m=s AT THIS TIJME THE VEGETATION WAS COVERING THE SOIL, THUS COVERING INDIAN TRIALS AND ANY EVIDENCE OF THE SUSPENDED BRIDGE EVIDENCES OF HAVING EXISTENCE IN PAST.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=13&l=9&m=s A very broad view, as if from a very high altitude flight.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=17&l=9&m=s A very close up view, showing quite like Indian pathway (dense walked) toward NOTHING: the suspended bridge (that is missing). At the time of picture the vegetation was covering the soil (not the case of previous pictures, showing the bare soil, rocky: limestones).

Between the positions "1 to 1", crossing the River Niagara, and "2 to 2", crossing the River Niagara, are the two SUSPENDED BRIDGES located on the map. See next.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1170d96b867d87d1a5d375bb5589b477c4a088a9a568e22dc5e251e866066c126g.jpg very enlarged picture.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1170d96b867d87d1a5d375bb5589b477c4a088a9a568e22dc5e251e866066c124g.jpg small sized picture.

You can see the NIAGARA RIVER (SIDON RIVER) flowing downstream Niagara Falls toward ZARAHEMLA, thus toward Devils Hole throat, the place for the two Suspende Bridge. For some time I worked in a Construction and planning and design of bridges (including suspended bridges) and tunnels and huge structures: 40 years ago... Maybe the right side suspended bridge could had been Jareditic design... and it was rebuilt by Nephites. With increasing traffic they built a larger one, at the left.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/4a57897f5e4a66e541a351b058314e5997674762e225f9f0c8d21f89235bd0ab6g.jpg Very enlarged picture - design

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/4a57897f5e4a66e541a351b058314e5997674762e225f9f0c8d21f89235bd0ab4g.jpg small sized picture - design.

You can see the schematic design of the "shoulder" of the suspended bridge on its support at the left side, when bridge touchs the ground. It appears there were some type of parking place for people waiting their time of crossing and for some type of CUSTOMS/iMMIGRATION. Red lines going upward to the left probably were toward roads (Indian trail) along the shoreline of ERIE Lake, as to board Sail Ship Haggoth's type to travel to Manti... And red lines going to the right probably were toward Zarahemla, bordering very close the Niagara (Sidon) River. The intermediate pair or red lines would go to some intermediate places. At the time of this picture there was no vegetation.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d95e64b6e1aabfc226986ff85be4b2d690b906f32baea0a465b8fd6409b92f996g.jpg very enlarged picture, showing nice ground.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d95e64b6e1aabfc226986ff85be4b2d690b906f32baea0a465b8fd6409b92f994g.jpg quite small sized picture

You can see that probably we may had a THIRD SUSPENDED BRIDGE in parallel to the other two main bridges. It appears it was "downstream" sited (upper of video).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e3d5704e53dc20d62da617cbb8f5b936c1c96383780cd0673c7e7cdd070834525g.jpg Average sized map, of good size.

As a civil hydraulic, sanitary and environmental engineer, appreciate to use good topographic/aerophotogrametric maps, as this one provided by U.S.G.S. of USA and in fact it is very good to examine precise technical information, as from Book of Mormon, with precise and reliable maps, as from USGS. You can see the place for 2 or 3 Suspended Bridges, in parallel position, crossing the Niagara River (Sidon river or THE GREAT CID RIVER... eL Cid), are for the position or place "128" at the deepest of the River Niagara, receiving the title "Devils Hole". For sure any person falling from the Suspended Bridge and falling on water, was sinked into Devils Hole...

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/233db52e11edb8ff6a1f1bc8914293580d01f5fcd0322b352684430c7ea6b4be5g.jpg

Other view of the LEFT SHOULDER of the Suspended Bridges passing over the Devils Hole of Niagara River.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d4f770612527eaab7a089cbdd876194bf593c651d4d49b52a944535df3cc4ca85g.jpg

This is the RIGHT SHOULDER of the Suspended Bridges passing over the Devils Hole of the Niagara River (as seen on top of your video screen). Arriving in quite like the modern bordering avenue, you have the old Indian trails had a pathway goind left to MANTI town by bordering the EAST side (margin) of the WEST SEA (Lake ERIE) and then turning right at the far end and reaching Manti (nowadays Detroit). The other Indian trail pathway, in the opposite direction, departing from the suspended bridges, was going to CUMORAH HILL.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/dbb07cb4bff7d32daef433cdcbdc44dbd7e9f0c39188322b0315f1edaba6a3855g.jpg

The main suspended bridge is presented in PLAN VIEW (design in upper part) and in a VERTICAL CROSS-SECTION (in the lower part). You can see it was quite long, being of some 336 m length (some 1,000 ft). Even a respectiful span for modern suspended bridge without counter-weight provision, as in this case (no space...). Probably they used the caves for such purpose of anchorage... (see the pictures of something like caves...). Quite like marvelous engineering undertaking. Some 130m above the turbulent waters of Sidon River flowing quite like toward the h*** in great and deadly noises...

Best personal regards, sincerely yours,

engineer Celso Savelli Gomes, university professor, M.Sc. Univ. California (Berkeley, 1978), teaching since 1968, researcher, cattle farmer, archeologist, LDS...

[SAVELLI]

A "STRANGE VIEWPOINT" of the GEOGRAPHY of the BOOK OF MORMON based on FIRST HAND information provided by the very FIRST LEADERS and PROPHETS.

Engineer Celso Savelli Gomes, university professor, M.Sc. Univ. California (Berkeley, 1978), teaching since 1968, researcher, cattle farmer, archeologist, LDS...

HOAX? H-O-A-X???

As is my huge basalt stone (complex geometric cuttings), with Asiatic ideograms, I found in our farms, in North of Brazil, 2 years ago, after 30 years searching them?

Remember from last posted message:

http://img11.mediafi...e1977f9876g.jpg very enlarged map

http://www.mediafire...e1977f9874g.jpg smaller sized image AT THIS TIME IT WAS WITHOUT LEAVES (maybe without vegetation), as at the end of winter time, melted ice.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=15&l=9&m=s AT THIS TIJME THE VEGETATION WAS COVERING THE SOIL, as if at the end of summer time. Thus vegetation was covering or hidding (from air view) INDIAN TRIALS AND ANY EVIDENCE OF THE SUSPENDED BRIDGE had existed IN PAST.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=17&l=9&m=s A very close up view, showing quite like Indian pathway (dense walked) toward NOTHING: from the left higher place of suspended bridge (that is missing) sinking into the Niagara River. At the time of picture (end of summer?) the vegetation was covering the soil (not the case of previous pictures, showing the bare soil, white parts in picture being rocky soil or bare rocks: limestones pebles and rocks).

Between the positions "1 to 1", crossing the River Niagara, and "2 to 2", crossing the River Niagara, are the two SUSPENDED BRIDGES located on the map. See next.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=15&l=9&m=s http://www.wikimapia...22&z=15&l=9&m=s

A very high elevation flight view (as from U-2 planes). The "cross signal" ( + ) remained over the exact vertical place of the HOAX "suspended bridges" just downstream the Niagara Falls. YOU CAN "SEE", with EYES of UNBELIEVER in prophet Joseph Smith toward witnesses of ZELF's discovery and disclosure, that there is an EAST SEA (Ontario Lake) "on" CUMORAH HILL, both on the upper part of the screen. And you can SEE that there is also a WEST SEA, the LAKE HURON, going WEST, in relation to ISTHMUS of NIAGARA and of EAST SEA (ONTaRium Lake). Also UNBELIEVERS, worshipers of Mexican to Guametalaian IDOLS, made in Gold=?, and growing COLD PLANTS in EQUATORIAL CLIMATE, that there is in fact a very NARROW "NECK" of land between EAST SEA (ONTarium lake) and WEST SEA (ERIE Lake), and that at the most NARROW of such NECK is the place for a Nephite walk (in Indian trail) in ONE and a HALF DAY, and that is the LENGTH of the WELLAND HUGEST CHANNEL for NAVIGATION and HYDROPOWER GENERATION (by USA-CANADA binational Co.) at the shore of EAST SEA (ONTaRium Lake), with hugest CARGO SHIPs being able to travel from CHICAGO to HONG KONG. Are LDS people "blind"? Have EYES and can't SEE? Are unable to read what their first LEADERS told them about the KINGDOM of Nephites? I am just a LAMANITE LDS, descendent of INDIANS GUARANY, GUARA=redish red skin and NY=humble people. Oh, Israel !!! Did you, wises of Zion, became also like HOAX? Where the true SCIENCE, that is based in following the true prophets? Moses?

Have in mind that the Sidon River (SID ON = CID ON = "EL CID" = "VERY GREATEST/IMPORTANT CID RIVER, cid is the correct in Nephitic language... SID is "cultural" translation, phonetic..."). It has two branches. One going North, starting at the metropolitan urban area of CHICAGO and it starts as very small "LOTHIC" creek (tinny river) and soon discharges into Lake Michigan (North Sea, for those departed from MANTI, in fact Michigan and Huron lake are just THE SAME LAKE with distinct POLITICAL DIVISIONS and different names... No distinct water levels, as waterfalls, between them: thus direct sailing from one to the other. Just ONE LAKE, the NORTH SEA LAKE from MANTI's boarded crew and passengers.

Such Sidon River "North Branch" starts LOTHIC=Ghion (visible). Then quickly it sinks under the waters of MICHIGAN LAKE and HURON LAKE and St. CLAIR LAKE, where it remains to exist as LENTHIC (not visible) SIDON RIVER. Based on such understanding, very easy for environmental people and professors like me (that learned about it in the Univ. of California, Berkeley, 1978...), and law makers and politicials, such HIDDEN FLOW PATHWAY FOLLOWED by the SIDON RIVER is the boundary limits (political border) between countyes, States and Nations, as USA and CANADA). Being usually at the deepest of the LAKE (fresh water SEA). The Sidon River "South Branch"=Illinois River + Mississippi River is allways LOTHIC="ghion in Ethiope" (as in Genesis Book, provided by Moses, because he used an Etiope word, not Hebrew, as he was married with a VERY blessed BLACK WOMAN, Cushite=Ethiop like the famous QUEEN of SABA, Shebah...because of some "comments" of Moses' sister, God made her know that becoming "extra white" was of none benefit... and that it was not good to intrude into marital/marriage relationships... no strange spoon in boiling soup pan... I heard about that with Jews of Zion's Wises research group, that I was member, from Washington, since 1999... researching about Rivers of Eden, in a scientific way...).

In case of hydroelectric dams and water supply reservoirs, and their required reservoir, the original River PATHWAY becomes HIDDEN (flooded) at the bottom of the new reservoir. But for all the purposes the ORIGINAL river remains "as if" FLOWING as if at the ORIGINAL and FLOODED pathway, at the deepest of the hydroelectric reservoir. If you LEARNED about this you can NOW get the exact position of JORDAN RIVER under Galilea Sea and of SIDON RIVER as just one River flowing toward North from CHICAGO (Head place of Sidon River, where it starts such river as LOTHIC condition, visible condition of water flowing, as "GHION" in ETHIOPIC of Moses Book, Genesis: GHION = "LOTHIC condition, water in visible flow, even out of a spring coming out, to a given flow, as if in a RIVER, not as a TIDE in seashore).

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=15&l=9&m=s A much BROADER view of the NEPHITES KINGDOM. You can see the MAIN CORE of it, from almost NEW YORK town (the unboarding place into the LIBERTY LAND, under the virtual presence of the STATUE OF LIBERTY at the HARBOR...) to the HUDSON RIVER (the main entrance route, where the Lamanites were first "backed" by Nephites, up to the virulent hybridization with the "red skin", GUARA Indians...) and then getting into the EAST SEA (the ONTaRium Lake: you can SEE it) and NEXT to it, "ON IT", the CUMORAH HILL. And going left you can see the ISTHMUS OF NIAGARA, as if a thin NECK of LAND between EAST SEA and WEST SEA. The narrowest of such NECK was the place of HaGGot heavy cargo Sail Ships (also for some passengers, "the disgrace" as trying overbooking, as common accidents in Brazil, Amazon River...) and now is the Welland Channel. Going West you can see another NECK, now of waters passing between USA and Canada, at the town of DETROIT = old MANTI town of Book of Mormon, going to NORTH LANDS and NORTH SEA = S.Clair + HURON LAKE + MICHIGAN LAKE.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=15&l=9&m=s Now you can see almost the LEFT "normal limit" of NEPHITIC EMPIRE, at its PEAK, going the NORTH SEA and NORTH LANDS to the HeadS of Sidon RiverS, which is at the nowadays CHICAGO TOWN. For sure it took so many MONTHS of travel, by SAIL SHIPS, quite like following the MONSOON weather wind seasons (in Asia) to navigate to one direction and then to the other, mainly with heavy cargo sail ships, as HaGGoTTi's, thus going from Manti to Lake St. Clair to Lake Huron, to Lake Michigan. And then could continue, from Chicago canoing down through the Illinois River, through Sidon River branch South, to Mississippi River and Gulf of Mexico. Thus "MANTI=Detroit" and "CHICAGO=Head of Sidon RiverS" were very important KEY towns in Geography of BoM. By this route, known by ZELPH, the White Lamanite Warrior, and as disclosed by prophet JOSEPH SMITH, was possible to go from N.YORK town/harbor to refuges in Rocky Mountains (like LOS LUNAS, New Mexico), quite like became similar/restored with S.L.C. You can see Joseph disclosed a VAST EMPIRE, not a tiny shy Guatemalaian ones from ZION's WISES...

al margin of Niagara River up to the top of such RAMP, the place of the CAVES for installing such VERY THICK ROPES. The thinner and first ROPE used for crossing the Niagara River would be replaced (pulling) progressivelly thicker sections of other ROPES, up to the final very thick ROPE, to resist very greatest TENSION. Quite like used by INCA Indians of Peru for crossing similar very deep and narrow precipices of similar Rivers... http://www.mediafire...988a1e7196g.jpg INCA suspended bridge (Indians of Peru)

See this picture, one of many (including high resolution satellite pictures at proper viewpoint angles) showing the existence of many CAVE ENTRANCE. Probably for the chambers of providing TENSION of ROPES required for the SUSPENSION BRIDGE construction and operation (to lift the load of hopes, wood floor/steps, persons, cargo) and also for UNLOADING/LOADING people and cargo at the extremities of the SUSPENSION BRIDGE: requiring a quite spatious cave for that, as there is no space, as we have in the case of Suspension bridges as GOLDEN GATE, that I visited so many times with my wife... while living in BERKELEY... (let there be light, what we need in ZION)

http://www.mediafire...lnd9fdj&thumb=6

You can see in left side two BLUE arrows pointing to some CAVES entrance at the steep slope of the left margin of Niagara=Sidon=Cidon (EL CID) River, in the MULEKITES Kingdom side (the other side was the NEPHITE kingdoms). If this was a CONSTRUCTION DUMP SITE, for what would be the CAVES? They just would dump the SOLID WASTES and "hope" it slide back through the very steep slope of Niagara River and be flushed away into Ontarium lake by the strong violent stream of DEVILS. AH!!! For sure it is the TOP SECRET place, the very well HIDDEN CAVES for storing TOXIC PLUTONIUM RADIOACTIVE WASTES... I heard about so secret information while I was studying in Berkely, in 1978, about the handling and disposal of RADIOACTIVE WASTES, in one course provided by such University. Now I can SEE the exact place!!!

See also more caves at the entrance of the Suspension Bridge and under it (it is pointed by 2 blue arrows toward it). See it, UNBELIEVERS worshipers of stone idols... I found a BIG ONE, in BASALT STONE, very well sculptured, in very complex geometric shapeS, in our cattle farms, in North of Brazil, 2 years ago... IMPOSSIBLE! LIAR! HOAX! There is none ADVANCED CIVILIZATION in BRAZIL, mainly at the very EQUATORIAL LINE... and at the SEA LEVEL elevation, plenty of RAINS... dense forest. I had contact with some VERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION, in a very special dream, in 1981... They were more advanced, in science and technology, than us. They told that my farm was next to the "PROHIBITED LAND" but that I was to return alive and knowing about them and of my visit to them, human beings exactly as us, scientists. I ordered an expedition to try to find any remains of such civilization, but we only found dense forest. It took 30 years to find something of advanced civilization. But meanwhile so many things were written/published, as patents of Invention and on Science and Technology sites, mainly in USA (in universities, even U.Calif.Berkeley) about what they taught about, as related to gravity fielDS... and very advanced Physics and Environmental Science and Handling of whole Planets Environment, even in those that we were soon to find, orbiting nearby stars, plenty of them inhabited with intelligent people like us. And in one patent it was made the sketch of the inter-star space-ship to go there, with some type of primitive technology, that yet is too advanced for us to build, but that it was obsolete, primitive. It is for long in Internet, even in USA site somebody uploaded...

WHAT ABOUT if the INDIAN TRAILS in fact are just an ILLUSION, the result of some nearby CONSTRUCTION Companies discharging their construction solid wastes into the Niagara River? And just DUMPING them over the SLOPE of the steep margin of the Niagara River, for the steep margin causing such "solid waste" slide down to the River? Quite a criminous environmental practice? When such material appears to be very "white" in black-and-white material, suggesting it be "limestone" material, quite like useful for earthfillings and quite easy to dump around, without need of such more expensive "dispatch to Devils stomach". Also why did we have 3 (three) such points of discharge? And for what they would need the construction of TUNNELS in such places for DUMPING SOLID WASTES? To store some NUCLEAR WASTES? Plutonium? According the very old U.S.G.S. map, such area next to the "left shoulders" of the suspended bridge was ALREADY the OLD "wintergreen flat", a housing complex that can be seen nicelly, in modern days, in: http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=15&l=9&m=s

In front of it, going to left, toward the River Niagara margin, you can see the remains of one important Indian Trail crossing the modern avenue (one branch) and the other branch, from right, was coming from the suspended bridges (in a quite "fainted" Indian trail, but yet visible). SEE THEM. http://www.wikimapia...37&z=16&l=9&m=s

Well, in any way these are HOAX (H-O-A-X) theories. My wife and I had been there in 1978, quite almost yet in Honey-Moon, but would never imagine going to INSPECT the DUMP SITE... or SUSPENDED BRIDGES site...

For sure some persons, even of USA, never visited the CORE of Nephitic Lands, the true ones, around CUMORAH HILL, but even they were FOOLED going to visit the false lands (religious turism) in Mexico to Guatemala or elsewhere... quite like fooled Israelites touching the false gold in calf god, instead in believing in Moses' God they couldn't see or touch as basis of their religion, instead of the "Egyptian Religion based on idols/things" they can touch on or at least SEE shinning and foolishing them.

Best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI (SAB=SAV = SABaoth ELI in Nephitic=Sabellic language reads ELI SABaoth = My God Lord of Heavenly Army = My God Jehovah God = I am Israelite).

Very worldwide spread family and branches and corrupted spellings, even through Asia (as SABER, SABERI, Sabella, Sabelliev, Isabela, Isabel, Elisabeth, Saberiah, Sabal=Florida flag, Sabines, etc.).

Edited August 12, 2011 by SAVELLI

[ozpoof]

If the Book of Mormon is true, Mormonism needs to change because it absolutely does not adhere to this book.

If you believe the Book of Mormon to be true, you believe:

-Jesus and God the Father are the same. (Mosiah 3:8, 15:1-5, Ether 4:7, 12)

-God is a spirit. (Alma 18:26-28)

-God does not change and has never changed. (Mormon 9:9, Moroni 8:18) So God was not once a man and there is no eternal progression.

-Salvation must be attained in this life; after one dies it is too late (Alma 34:34, 2 Nephi 9:38, Mosiah 2:36-39). No mention of baptism for the dead.

-The polygamy of David and Solomon was "abominable" to the Lord (Jacob 2:24), yet we are told Utah polygamy was sanctioned by God.

-There are two churches only: the true church and the "church of the devil," "the whore of Babylon" (1 Nephi 14:10-12). A church which seeks to become "popular in the eyes of the world" is of the devil. (1 Nephi 22:23)

-A dark skin is a curse from God, a punishment for one's unrighteousness (or the unrighteousness of one's ancestors). A dark skin can become light through righteousness. (1 Nephi 12:23, 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3:6, Mormon 5:15, Jacob 3:8-9, 3 Nephi 2:15)

-Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to h*** 3 Nephi 11:31-40 i.e no temple rituals.

-"The Lord" dwells in the hearts of the righteous. (Alma 34:36) which contradicts D&C 130:31; verse 22 which says that it is the Holy Ghost that "dwell in us"

-The "first resurrection" is for all who died before Christ's resurrection, righteous and unrighteous alike (Mosiah 15:24, Alma 40:16-17) which contradicts D&C 76:64. 63:18 that says the "first resurrection" is only for the righteous.

There are many more examples where the Book of Mormon does not mention current Mormon theology or outright contradicts it. So, the question is, if the Book of Mormon IS true, why do Mormons ignore it and not follow its teachings?

[Storm Rider]

If the Book of Mormon is true, Mormonism needs to change because it absolutely does not adhere to this book.

If you believe the Book of Mormon to be true, you believe:

-Jesus and God the Father are the same. (Mosiah 3:8, 15:1-5, Ether 4:7, 12)

-God is a spirit. (Alma 18:26-28)

-God does not change and has never changed. (Mormon 9:9, Moroni 8:18) So God was not once a man and there is no eternal progression.

-Salvation must be attained in this life; after one dies it is too late (Alma 34:34, 2 Nephi 9:38, Mosiah 2:36-39). No mention of baptism for the dead.

-The polygamy of David and Solomon was "abominable" to the Lord (Jacob 2:24), yet we are told Utah polygamy was sanctioned by God.

-There are two churches only: the true church and the "church of the devil," "the whore of Babylon" (1 Nephi 14:10-12). A church which seeks to become "popular in the eyes of the world" is of the devil. (1 Nephi 22:23)

-A dark skin is a curse from God, a punishment for one's unrighteousness (or the unrighteousness of one's ancestors). A dark skin can become light through righteousness. (1 Nephi 12:23, 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3:6, Mormon 5:15, Jacob 3:8-9, 3 Nephi 2:15)

-Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to h*** 3 Nephi 11:31-40 i.e no temple rituals.

-"The Lord" dwells in the hearts of the righteous. (Alma 34:36) which contradicts D&C 130:31; verse 22 which says that it is the Holy Ghost that "dwell in us"

-The "first resurrection" is for all who died before Christ's resurrection, righteous and unrighteous alike (Mosiah 15:24, Alma 40:16-17) which contradicts D&C 76:64. 63:18 that says the "first resurrection" is only for the righteous.

There are many more examples where the Book of Mormon does not mention current Mormon theology or outright contradicts it. So, the question is, if the Book of Mormon IS true, why do Mormons ignore it and not follow its teachings?

I commend your ability to quote from other sources. However, quoting from another source is not the same thing as understanding the information. The above reflects a person devoid of any understanding of LDS theology. You might want to actually learn what the LDS Church teaches and believes; anti-Mormon websites are notoriously stupid ignorant, their objective is to sensationalize rather than instruct their readers.

[altersteve]

If the Book of Mormon is true, Mormonism needs to change because it absolutely does not adhere to this book.

Based on your own ignorant reading of the book, you mean. Let's take a look-see:

-Jesus and God the Father are the same. (Mosiah 3:8, 15:1-5, Ether 4:7, 12)

The Book of Mormon never says this once. They are "one," but certainly not "the same." Mosiah 3:8 says that Christ is the Father of heaven and earth because He is the Creator, not because He is "the same" as His Father. Mosiah 15:1–5 actually explains in the clearest of words why Christ is both the Father and the Son: He is the Father "because he was conceived by the power of God," and, as other scriptures tell us, because of His role as the Creator and how we can be sons and daughters of Christ through faith in Him; and He is the Son because He is the Son of God "because of the flesh." It helps to read it. Ether 4:7 again says that Jesus Christ is the Father of the heavens and of the earth, but He is the Creator, so that title fits. Verse 12 makes a clear distinction between Christ and "the Father who sent me," and merely echoes what is said in verse 7.

-God is a spirit. (Alma 18:26-28)

This passage describes missionary efforts to teach the Lamanites about the gospel. They began by explaining that what the Lamanites called the "Great Spirit" was God. Furthermore, in the Book of Mormon, it is Jesus Christ who is spoken of when God was mentioned, and Christ had no body at the time, so there would be no contradiction anyway.

-God does not change and has never changed. (Mormon 9:9, Moroni 8:18) So God was not once a man and there is no eternal progression.

"Change" and "progress" are two very different words with two very different meanings. It also helps to understand how Latter-day Saints understand "eternity," because it doesn't always denote a length of time (D&C 19:4–12). And God being eternally unchanging does not mean that He did not once pass through mortality to obtain a physical body, since a body is necessary to obtain a fullness of joy. That's not change, that's progress. Like Jesus, the Father was still God during and before His experience in mortality.

-Salvation must be attained in this life; after one dies it is too late (Alma 34:34, 2 Nephi 9:38, Mosiah 2:36-39). No mention of baptism for the dead.

These scriptures are about those who have had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life but have rejected it. Alma 34:35 seems to make this clear when it talks about "procrastinat[ing] the day of your repentance," since only those who can repent and who know the gospel can procrastinate such an event. These people lose their chance for exaltation (D&C 76:73–78), but not necessarily salvation, since Latter-day Saints could almost be considered Universalists. If one is unable to accept the gospel after death, then God must not be as merciful as the scriptures say He is. To Latter-day Saints, a God who would damn His children, whom He supposedly loves, to eternal suffering and torture, just for never having the chance to accept Him, is simply not a God worth worshiping.

And baptism for the dead is obviously not mentioned because it was probably not known among the Nephites, simply because baptism for the dead is an ordinance that was introduced after Christ's ascension, and very little is known about Nephite culture and religion in the A.D. years except for what Mormon and Moroni tell us, and they don't tell us a lot. However, since the Savior quoted the writings of Malachi about the then-future coming of Elijah and the turning the hearts of the children to their fathers in 3 Nephi 25:1–6, which has since been clarified to be a discussion of temple work, it is possible that baptism for the dead was known and practiced, but Mormon and Moroni simply didn't mention it.

-The polygamy of David and Solomon was "abominable" to the Lord (Jacob 2:24), yet we are told Utah polygamy was sanctioned by God.

The Lord makes it clear in verse 30 that He can command the practice of plural marriage for His purposes. And why do you say "Utah polygamy"? Plural marriage was practiced long before the Saints ever reached Utah.

-There are two churches only: the true church and the "church of the devil," "the whore of Babylon" (1 Nephi 14:10-12). A church which seeks to become "popular in the eyes of the world" is of the devil. (1 Nephi 22:23)

This is not what you think it means. We obviously do not believe that any non-LDS religion is "of the devil." The "great and abominable church," the "church of the devil," is, rather, any organization that seeks to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. This is no different from the writings of John the Revelator, who speaks of the "whore of Babylon" in chapters 17 and 18 of the Book of Revelation. This "whore of Babylon" is also symbolic of any religion that actively opposes the true Church.

-A dark skin is a curse from God, a punishment for one's unrighteousness (or the unrighteousness of one's ancestors). A dark skin can become light through righteousness. (1 Nephi 12:23, 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3:6, Mormon 5:15, Jacob 3:8-9, 3 Nephi 2:15)

"Dark skin" in general is not a curse from God. It is the dark skin of the Lamanites that was a mark, not a curse, of their wickedness. Dark skin becoming light is a metaphor. Obviously the color of your skin isn't going to change when you join the Church.

-Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to h*** 3 Nephi 11:31-40 i.e no temple rituals.

Christ says that "faith, repentance, [and] baptism" are His doctrine, not His gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of Jesus Christ, the work and the glory of God "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," that through Christ, and only through Christ, we can be saved. You're right, though, that the Savior says that if man adds to His doctrine, then he will be under condemnation. But it never says that Christ cannot add to His own doctrine. He most certainly can, and does. Regardless, the word "only" is never mentioned in this passage, or chapter for that matter. It is completely consistent with the fourth Article of Faith, which states that "the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." This is exactly what is taught throughout the Book of Mormon.

-"The Lord" dwells in the hearts of the righteous. (Alma 34:36) which contradicts D&C 130:31; verse 22 which says that it is the Holy Ghost that "dwell in us"

Read this in context. Alma 34:36 is saying is that we can be influenced by either the spirit of Satan or the Spirit of the Lord (the Holy Ghost), who is mentioned in verse 35.

-The "first resurrection" is for all who died before Christ's resurrection, righteous and unrighteous alike (Mosiah 15:24, Alma 40:16-17) which contradicts D&C 76:64. 63:18 says that the "first resurrection" is only for the righteous.

There is actually no contradiction at all. If you read Mosiah 15:24 in context, you will notice that in verse 22, it is taught that "all the prophets, and all those that have believed their words, or all that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection." This is completely in line with in D&C 63:18. In fact, verse 26 states that "all those who have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have willfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they who have no part in the first resurrection." Verse 24 is merely a continuation of what is being said in verse 22 and in verse 23 (in which it is said that little children will be saved). Alma 40:16–17 teaches the same thing.

Sorry, try again.

Edited August 15, 2011 by altersteve

[why me]

Taken at face value, the book of mormon would be up against the wall if it weren't for the 11 witnesses. Joseph Smith got extremely lucky to choose 11 people who he could trust to never give up the fraud once they were brought in on it. Then, when we consider his wife and sisters who all believed the book of mormon or they were also in on the fraud. The circle of people who would have needed to be in on the know would have sunk any fraud if it were a fraud. And this is a plus for the book of mormon and causes the critics a severe headache. These witnesses had such an extreme experience that none could ever deny what they felt or saw even on their death beds.

[Robert F. Smith]

And baptism for the dead is obviously not mentioned because it was probably not known among the Nephites, simply because baptism for the dead is an ordinance that was introduced after Christ's ascension, and very little is known about Nephite culture and religion in the A.D. years except for what Mormon and Moroni tell us, and they don't tell us a lot. However, since the Savior quoted the writings of Malachi about the then-future coming of Elijah and the turning the hearts of the children to their fathers in 3 Nephi 25:1–6, which has since been clarified to be a discussion of temple work, it is possible that baptism for the dead was known and practiced, but Mormon and Moroni simply didn't mention it.

Vicarious expiation of sin was central to the Mosaic code, and even before that code, as we can see from Genesis 22, through Isaiah 53, II Maccabees 12:45 (vicarious expiation of sin for the dead), etc., and was certainly central to Nephite temple rites (Mosiah 2:3), all presumably as precursors to the great and last sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who was slain from the foundation of the world (II Timothy 1:9, Revelation 13: 8 ). See here.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

jmordecai post #87 says:

Well let's start with the basics: identify reformed Egyptian, confirm ancient Jews lived in the Americas and that their culture matches that as recorded in the Book of Mormon. With that, we at least have tangibles to work with. Without that, all of the "tapirs are horses" arguments will never convince skeptics that the Book of Mormon is anything other than fiction.

1. How is demotic Egyptian linked to the Book of Mormon?

2. Has it been found in the Americas and dated to the Book of Mormon era?

Mesoamerican expert Mike Coe is one who has said that no "reformed Egyptian" has been found in Mesoamerica, and that the Book of Mormon is fiction. Of course he also believes that the biblical Exodus is fiction.

Your initial question is whether there is any tangible evidence for "reformed Egyptian," whatever that means.

In fact, some professional Egyptologists such as William C.Hayes and Richard A. Parker (both now deceased) have provided very positive remarks about the nature of the horizontal "Anthon Transcript," and each regarded it as written in ancient Egyptian characters.

On February 6, 1956, W. C. Hayes, providing written notes and comments to Stanley B. Kimball, told Kimball that the Anthon Transcript resembled hieratic Egyptian (Kimball was then a doctoral candidate at Columbia University). Hayes offered a transcription and translation of several of the characters at the beginning of that Transcript, and Kimball made those notes by Hayes available to others before his death. Later, Richard L. Bushman, while a visiting scholar at Brown University, spoke with R. A. Parker about the Anthon Transcript, Parker commenting that it appeared to be a copy of a real document in Egyptian script, but possibly in an unknown language such as Meroitic (Indeed, Hugh Nibley thought many names in the Book of Mormon not only sounded like Meroitic, but that the writing on the Anthon Transcript itself looked almost like Meroitic -- Since Cumorah, CWHNVII:170-171).

Another example is possibly an Egyptian hieratic character for mr-mn which Frederick G. Williams said he got from Joseph Smith and which means “Mormon.” It has since been published, and may be authentic (Benjamin Urrutia, “The Name Connection,” New Era, 13/6 [June 1983]:39, citing Nancy C. Williams, After One Hundred Years [independence, Missouri: Zion’s Printing and Publishing Co., 1951], plate between pages 102–103) .

Edited August 15, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[altersteve]

Vicarious expiation of sin was central to the Mosaic code, and even before that code, as we can see from Genesis 22, through Isaiah 53, II Maccabees 12:45 (vicarious expiation of sin for the dead), etc., and was certainly central to Nephite temple rites (Mosiah 2:3), all presumably as precursors to the great and last sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who was slain from the foundation of the world (II Timothy 1:9, Revelation 13: 8 ). See here.

Thank you for the information. I haven't studied the Old Testament very much, so I wasn't aware of this.

[Robert F. Smith]

Craig:

Your initial question was "Taken At Face Value…Is The Book Of Mormon True? Or must it be nuanced to make it so."

The Cambridge Online Dictionary defines "face value" as "to accept something for what it appears to be rather than studying it more closely" (http://dictionary.ca...h-at-face-value ).

SInce "face value" seems in this case to be less than satisfactory, my question would be, what sort of nuances do you imagine might be convincing to the sincere, inquiring mind? Pro or con? Certainly the silly incompetence of the Ferguson list cannot be given serious consideration, since it tends to boil down to a meaningless "tis so, tis not" exchange. Is it possible to approach this question in a scientific fashion, probing the Book of Mormon for the same sort of hard evidence which one would expect in a crime scene investigation? Or in a serious anthropological manner?

Edited August 15, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

DUPLICATE

Edited August 15, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Craig Paxton, on 08 August 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

Ummm...actually people get false witnesses all the time.

(cdowis replies in bold)

True, but normally we can depend on the eyewitness account of eight reliable witnesses who saw a physical event at the same time.

So who, if not the individual claiming to receive this witness is the final arbiter of said spiritual witness? Yet there are countless cases of individuals who have claimed to have received a witness of some truth only to be told that it was a false witness because it did not conform to someone else’s standard of a spiritual witness.

And that is precisely why I am not in the business of proving that the BOM is authentic. That is something between the individual and the Lord. The individual is responsible to judge whether he received a reliable witness from the Spirit.

The individual himself is the judge and arbiter. I can only speak for myself and my own personal experience.

In fact a spiritual witness is probably one of the least reliable experience to base a major decision upon...because it is based on feelings and emotions and feeling and emotions CAN and ARE manipulated.

That is true, and that is why we have Alma chapter 32, in addition to the promise in Moroni. I can witness from a lifetime of experiences which are consistent with my initial experience.

A testimony, a witness, is a journey, not just an event. And, again, we have to judge for ourselves if that lifetime witness is true.

Mormonism is NOT unique in the spiritual witness business...while from the Mormon perspective all "other" witnesses are false...just as from some other religions perspective Mormonism witnesses are false. Even within Mormonism, members receive false witness of the spirit all the time only later to reinterpret their once firm witness once they realize that their so-called witness didn't result in the desired blessing.

Things have happened to me that you would not call a "blessing", but the things that I experienced over the years have turned out to be a blessing.

It is true that someone may pay tithing, and instantly expect to get a new job, etc. The blessings do not come in that manner, and that is what we learn through a lifetime of experiences -- how the Lord works.

Finally, my witness does not preclude someone else from having a special experience with my Father. Peter Marshall was a great man, and had a very special experience with the Lord.

cdowis:

You've got it right, but you must understand the fear which many modern Protestants (including evangelicals) have for the perceived danger of allowing "feelings" to influence religious decisions. They have seen the effects on the Holiness Churches ("Holy Rollers"), a revival feature all too common among mainstream Protestants in Joseph Smith's day. It just doesn't seem respectable to mainstream Protestants today, and they not only deny the power of the Holy Spirit in modern times, but would likewise deny it to the early Christian Church on Pentecost/Whitsunday (Acts 2:1-13). Perhaps it seems too embarrassing and unsettling to them.

Even so, you will often hear from modern evangelicals that they were "lead by the Spirit" to do such-and-such. A forthright contradiction in terms.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[ozpoof]

I commend your ability to quote from other sources. However, quoting from another source is not the same thing as understanding the information. The above reflects a person devoid of any understanding of LDS theology. You might want to actually learn what the LDS Church teaches and believes; anti-Mormon websites are notoriously stupid ignorant, their objective is to sensationalize rather than instruct their readers.

The source is irrelevant. Rational people do not ignore information because they don't like where it comes from. What it contains is key. All the quotes are valid. There is no "out of context" excuse here". I KNOW what the LDS church teaches and believes, and I repeat, it differs VASTLY from what the "most correct book" teaches.

To simply wright this information off as "anti" doesn't make it go away. The quotes are accurate. Which quotes do you suggest are false? Which do not reflect LDS theology today?

You have not answered ANYTHING contained in my post. Your answer descends into name-calling and stereotypes. Please tell me where this information is wrong. Don't just claim it's wrong without any proof.

[Storm Rider]

The source is irrelevant. Rational people do not ignore information because they don't like where it comes from. What it contains is key. All the quotes are valid. There is no "out of context" excuse here". I KNOW what the LDS church teaches and believes, and I repeat, it differs VASTLY from what the "most correct book" teaches.

To simply wright this information off as "anti" doesn't make it go away. The quotes are accurate. Which quotes do you suggest are false? Which do not reflect LDS theology today?

You have not answered ANYTHING contained in my post. Your answer descends into name-calling and stereotypes. Please tell me where this information is wrong. Don't just claim it's wrong without any proof.

Yes, now I see where your other question came from. You confuse facts with opinion, lies, misquotes, and misinformation. The reason I did not answer anything in your post is that it has been hashed over so thoroughly on this site that it is meaningless and boring for me to engage. You should just search all the other threads that have addressed your topics. Did you rally think that you had something unique to add here? Did you think that silliness had not been discussed? Look, if it has been said on an anti-Mormon website before, it has been discussed countless times here.

You have no interest in learning, but you actually think you have a position worth arguing and your only motivation is not to find truth, but to disprove the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is a hint, there is a long line of people in front of you and we have heard your schtick before.

[ozpoof]

Yes, now I see where your other question came from. You confuse facts with opinion, lies, misquotes, and misinformation. The reason I did not answer anything in your post is that it has been hashed over so thoroughly on this site that it is meaningless and boring for me to engage. You should just search all the other threads that have addressed your topics. Did you rally think that you had something unique to add here? Did you think that silliness had not been discussed? Look, if it has been said on an anti-Mormon website before, it has been discussed countless times here.

You have no interest in learning, but you actually think you have a position worth arguing and your only motivation is not to find truth, but to disprove the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is a hint, there is a long line of people in front of you and we have heard your schtick before.

Stop the ad hominem attacks and address the issue or ignore the post. I'm tired of people like you who make the outrageous assertion that I have no interest in learning when it is you who (if you listen to church leaders) must actively ignore and avoid facts you don't like! How dare you accuse me of not seeking truth when I have gone through a living h*** to seek it! You know nothing about me or my circumstances.

I don't care in the slightest how many times this issue has been "hashed over" here. If that is true, and if there is still the question out there, then clearly it has not been hashed over to an adequate conclusion! I'm new here and I want to ask the question again. This isn't Elders' Quorum, so please don't act like a rude child and shout me down. Do you treat all people here who make statements you don't like in this fashion? If so, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There is absolutely NOTHING in my post that is opinion. It's contains quotes from the Book of Mormon which I assume you agree is the "most correct book". You have not addressed anything in the post. Please stop wasting my time with your vitriol. If you have nothing to say say nothing.

Answer this. Do you believe the Book of Mormon contains the restored gospel? Do you believe the Book of Mormon to be the "most correct book"? These are yes/no answers. Please be civil and refrain from personal attacks and assumptions about my motivations.

[Storm Rider]

Stop the ad hominem attacks and address the issue or ignore the post. I'm tired of people like you who make the outrageous assertion that I have no interest in learning when it is you who (if you listen to church leaders) must actively ignore and avoid facts you don't like! How dare you accuse me of not seeking truth when I have gone through a living h*** to seek it! You know nothing about me or my circumstances.

I don't care in the slightest how many times this issue has been "hashed over" here. If that is true, and if there is still the question out there, then clearly it has not been hashed over to an adequate conclusion! I'm new here and I want to ask the question again. This isn't Elders' Quorum, so please don't act like a rude child and shout me down. Do you treat all people here who make statements you don't like in this fashion? If so, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There is absolutely NOTHING in my post that is opinion. It's contains quotes from the Book of Mormon which I assume you agree is the "most correct book". You have not addressed anything in the post. Please stop wasting my time with your vitriol. If you have nothing to say say nothing.

Answer this. Do you believe the Book of Mormon contains the restored gospel? Do you believe the Book of Mormon to be the "most correct book"? These are yes/no answers. Please be civil and refrain from personal attacks and assumptions about my motivations.

You are right; I will just ignore it rather than respond.

[altersteve]

The source is irrelevant. Rational people do not ignore information because they don't like where it comes from. What it contains is key. All the quotes are valid. There is no "out of context" excuse here". I KNOW what the LDS church teaches and believes, and I repeat, it differs VASTLY from what the "most correct book" teaches.

To simply wright this information off as "anti" doesn't make it go away. The quotes are accurate. Which quotes do you suggest are false? Which do not reflect LDS theology today?

You have not answered ANYTHING contained in my post. Your answer descends into name-calling and stereotypes. Please tell me where this information is wrong. Don't just claim it's wrong without any proof.

So you attack Storm Rider for posting something but not giving a firm reply to your questions, when I have already provided such answers. Are you just going to glaze over my post, then? I expected so.

[Deborah]

I don't care in the slightest how many times this issue has been "hashed over" here. If that is true, and if there is still the question out there, then clearly it has not been hashed over to an adequate conclusion!

By adequate conclusion, you mean accepting your conclusion. It's been adequately answered for the rest of us. And altersteve did address the issue.

[Skylla]

The source is irrelevant. Rational people do not ignore information because they don't like where it comes from. What it contains is key. All the quotes are valid. There is no "out of context" excuse here". I KNOW what the LDS church teaches and believes, and I repeat, it differs VASTLY from what the "most correct book" teaches.

To simply wright this information off as "anti" doesn't make it go away. The quotes are accurate. Which quotes do you suggest are false? Which do not reflect LDS theology today?

You have not answered ANYTHING contained in my post. Your answer descends into name-calling and stereotypes. Please tell me where this information is wrong. Don't just claim it's wrong without any proof.

When you cut and paste from a site, you are required to provide the source on this board.

Skylla

[Skylla]

Stop the ad hominem attacks and address the issue or ignore the post. I'm tired of people like you who make the outrageous assertion that I have no interest in learning when it is you who (if you listen to church leaders) must actively ignore and avoid facts you don't like! How dare you accuse me of not seeking truth when I have gone through a living h*** to seek it! You know nothing about me or my circumstances.

I don't care in the slightest how many times this issue has been "hashed over" here. If that is true, and if there is still the question out there, then clearly it has not been hashed over to an adequate conclusion! I'm new here and I want to ask the question again. This isn't Elders' Quorum, so please don't act like a rude child and shout me down. Do you treat all people here who make statements you don't like in this fashion? If so, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There is absolutely NOTHING in my post that is opinion. It's contains quotes from the Book of Mormon which I assume you agree is the "most correct book". You have not addressed anything in the post. Please stop wasting my time with your vitriol. If you have nothing to say say nothing.

Answer this. Do you believe the Book of Mormon contains the restored gospel? Do you believe the Book of Mormon to be the "most correct book"? These are yes/no answers. Please be civil and refrain from personal attacks and assumptions about my motivations.

You are engaging in ad hominem yourself. If you feel like you are being attacked, use the report button next time.

Skylla

[LeSellers]

You are engaging in ad hominem yourself.

Once again, the lack of a "Rep Points" button for moderator posts is keenly felt.

Lehi

[Robert F. Smith]

If the Book of Mormon is true, Mormonism needs to change because it absolutely does not adhere to this book.

If you believe the Book of Mormon to be true, you believe:

-Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to h*** 3 Nephi 11:31-40 i.e no temple rituals.

There are many more examples where the Book of Mormon does not mention current Mormon theology or outright contradicts it. So, the question is, if the Book of Mormon IS true, why do Mormons ignore it and not follow its teachings?

I thought that altersteve's post # 133 dealt adequately with your false claims about the nature of Book of Mormon teachings or theology, but he did not deal with the false claim you made that there are "no temple rituals" in the Book of Mormon. What do you imagine all the temples mentioned in the Book of Mormon were used for?

You might want to have a look at my notes on David Bokovoy's recent BYU Education Weeks lectures on "Temple Imagery in the Book of Mormon" HERE. Could be a real eye-opener for you.