Internet And Church History

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I've never been all that interested in the specifics of any relationship, other than my own.

What I don't understand is the claim that the Church hids its "true history". It is right out there in black and white, and has been for over one hundred years. If the Church is known for anything it is its former practice of polygamy. I can't count the times I've been asked how many wives I have. I've grown so weary of the question that I answer with "one less slave than you have".

My wife and I both are about as TBM as they come. Neither one of us has a problem with D&C 132. In fact both of us are rather fond of the idea that we will be together forever.

To me if something in the Bible AND the BoM AND D&C then chances are pretty good that it is something we, as LDS, should pay attention to. But that is probabley just me.

There is a lot of things in the Bible that I don't understand, right now. Particularly in the OT. Prehaps when I have the chance I'll ask the original authors about it.

I am content to try and follow, as best I can, the counsel of our present living leaders.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 01 August 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

Being duplicitous is akin to being an anti Mormon. Read my monicker below.

Your insults are getting discouraging. I haven't engaged in this site in a long time. I thought I was ready. I guess not.

It isn't an insult, it is the test of a man's character. It is always easy to go along with the crowd, to sing false praises you don't believe in. All in an effort to "fit in". As a German of Jewish descent I have made it a point to reject going along with the crowd just to fit in. So many poeple, dissidents, Jews, homosexuals, people who simply could not fit in were damaged by those who wanted to fit in.

I believe in being as open and honest about things as possible. To declare where I stand. It has cost me sometimes, but I respect myself and my beliefs enough to know that if they are important enough to define me, then they are important enough not to hide. Duplicity should not be the nature of man, whether in agreement or disagreement. As the only member in my family I have made it a point not to be duplicitous in my beliefs, just to get along, it undermines their faith in me and my faith in myself.

[T-Shirt]

What exactly is it that the Nauvoo Expositor published that wasn't true?

A long time ago I went through the Nauvoo Expositor, line by line and pointed out a long list of blatant distortions, lies and hypocrisy. I got tired after about two thirds of the way through. Frankly, Kevin, anyone who pretends the Nauvoo Expositor was good honest journalism cannot be taken seriously.

Best,

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

And frankly, I don't want to know what would happen to my wife if I were to sit down with her and read through the section with her. She's TBM now, but I suspect it would be a very negative experience for her and I don't know where it would end.

Wait a minute, are you saying you are hiding Church history from your wife? Why would you do that? Oh, and by the way, if this concerns you, I hope never sit down with your wife to read your blog. There would be no recovery from that.

Best,

T-Shirt

Edited August 1, 2011 by T-Shirt

[frankenstein]

First, I find that basically all of those "documented" events you speak of are simply anti's pretending to be mormon.

Well, you tell me if it's within this forums right to ban someone that comes in and starts the normal low class anti-mormon rag time?

So, I personally don't find it inappropriate to be critical of someone's anti-mormonism. There is a time and place for everything. If I come upon some bully in real life beating on someone, I'm going to beat down the bully as necessary. That doesn't make me bad for doing that. Also, simply because LDS sometimes disrespect the disrespectful, they are well in their right to. No one is required to tolerant disrespect and otherwise common from anti-mormonism.

and now lets read what Jesus, The King of Kings taught.

Matthew 5:39 turn the other cheek

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 6: 35 -36 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Well, we do disagree, but you're also wrong, because the data demonstrates my position, not yours.

We LDS know exactly what we do, why we do it, and when. Thus, you're wrong.

what data, who presented data? It's quite acceptable for people to reach an agreement without one person needing to falsely claim to say "I won".

Edited August 1, 2011 by frankenstein

[ldsfaqs]

Come now ldsfaqs...

Do you have RSR readily available? If you do, go to page 323. The first sentence under the header "FANNY ALGER" reads: "There is evidence that Joseph was a polygamist by 1835".

Now, do you just not believe this, or do you know something that Bushman doesn't?

I'm well aware that some LDS and LDS scholars MIX the "Sealing Ordinance" that Joseph practiced with actual Polygamy.

I find such scholars are not being properly accurate in this as they could be.

I have a similar issue with the Priesthood ban. Too many LDS simply accept the claim, rather than explaining what was really happening.

In other words, these two subjects are subjects that some better scholarship needs to be done on, which hasn't been yet.

[ldsfaqs]

and now lets read what Jesus, The King of Kings taught.

Matthew 5:39 turn the other cheek

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 6: 35 -36 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Who says we aren't doing "good"?

Pointing out evil and condemning it is not somehow doing evil. Where do you get this idea?

Did not the King of Kings also point out evil and false doctrine of fellow brethren, having harsh words for it?

Was he not doing "good"?

We always give anti's a chance to repent. So, who says' we don't turn the other Cheek and do good to them?

Me thinks you need to understand the concepts and ideology's a bit better. Mormonism and Christ didn't teach passivism. Only then would your comments be applicable.

what data, who presented data? It's quite acceptable for people to reach an agreement without one person needing to falsely claim to say "I won".

I presented myself and other LDS as data. We know when we are critical, why, when, and with who. And your representation of our actions is frankly completely FALSE. What you think we do is not the truth of what we actually do when people ask questions.

Edited August 1, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[Senator]

I'm well aware that some LDS and LDS scholars MIX the "Sealing Ordinance" that Joseph practiced with actual Polygamy.

I find such scholars are not being properly accurate in this as they could be.

I have a similar issue with the Priesthood ban. Too many LDS simply accept the claim, rather than explaining what was really happening.

In other words, these two subjects are subjects that some better scholarship needs to be done on, which hasn't been yet.

I see...

So, care to share some information you have that could help the scholars be more accurate? I'm sure they would be all ears.

[frankenstein]

Who says we aren't doing "good"?

Pointing out evil and condemning it is not somehow doing evil. Where do you get this idea?

Did not the King of Kings also point out evil and false doctrine of fellow brethren, having harsh words for it?

Was he not doing "good"?

I have one question....

Are you Christ?

Much to my dismay, I have long realized that self appointed "defenders" of any given organization will excuse their own actions that are contrary to what the Organization has set forth.

Civility

Jesus interest is to lift up, never tear down.

[Lightbearer]

I've seen a growing trend (at least in my ward) and was wondering if this is happening all over. There have been a number of members (life long members) in my ward that have left the church because of information they've read on the INTERNET. Most of the reasons I have heard were because of the history of the church that they say has been "hidden" from the general membership. Their testimony of Joseph Smith as well as other early leaders has crumbled to nothing. One family left because of this reason and that of the church's stand on homosexuality. They also felt that they just would never be "good enough" to be members of the church. I'd like to say that I just never paid much attention to it, but can't say that I believe that. I began to notice that our Elder's Quorum has shrunk considerably and I started asking questions. My wife is the Relief Society Secretary and has heard many of the stories. On a personal note, she too has been reading the same things. She told me just a couple of weeks ago that she didn't know if she could believe in Joseph Smith because A. He was a polygamist, B. He was a Treasure Seeker and C. A host of other accusations. The one thing that I find in common with all of these instances is the Internet and the information that is widely available. Does anyone else notice this trend or is it just me? If so, why won't the church come out and defend the accusations? Or at least clarify any misunderstandings?

Anti-Mormon propaganda is nothing new, it did not start with the internet and just like pornography (also found on the internet) it will always be with us until the Lord returns and burns the vineyard. Only an idiot or the spiritually immature would leave the church over something some puke put on the internet or wrote in a book. I did not get my testimony from the internet or Anti-Mormon rubbish, and in fact when the so-called learned use their libelous publications and other such trash to try to tarnish the character of a prophet of God the sword will fall on their own heads and it will cause the Saints to rely on the Lord to fight their battles... But more to your question, I have never met in person a long life member who apostatized on account of Anti-Mormon garbage, although I have met some who were investigating the church who's hearts were hardened because of it... all I can say is a generation of vipers will not escape the damnantion of h-e-l-l. These liars will be held accountable in the day of judgement.

[Nemesis]

Discuss the topic and not personalities please.

Nemesis

[sweetpotatoh]

I've seen a growing trend (at least in my ward) and was wondering if this is happening all over. There have been a number of members (life long members) in my ward that have left the church because of information they've read on the INTERNET. Most of the reasons I have heard were because of the history of the church that they say has been "hidden" from the general membership. Their testimony of Joseph Smith as well as other early leaders has crumbled to nothing. One family left because of this reason and that of the church's stand on homosexuality. They also felt that they just would never be "good enough" to be members of the church. I'd like to say that I just never paid much attention to it, but can't say that I believe that. I began to notice that our Elder's Quorum has shrunk considerably and I started asking questions. My wife is the Relief Society Secretary and has heard many of the stories. On a personal note, she too has been reading the same things. She told me just a couple of weeks ago that she didn't know if she could believe in Joseph Smith because A. He was a polygamist, B. He was a Treasure Seeker and C. A host of other accusations. The one thing that I find in common with all of these instances is the Internet and the information that is widely available. Does anyone else notice this trend or is it just me? If so, why won't the church come out and defend the accusations? Or at least clarify any misunderstandings?

it

Interesting. I learned about Joseph's polygamy from my mother, growing up in the 70's, and his treasure seeking in an institute class at Utah State in 1991. As for the other stuff I had heard bits and pieces about it from my mother and she told me that it is anti-mormon lies. didn't really dig into it until the internet. After researching it on the net I have to agree with my mother. I also realize that looking at it through twenty first century eyes is detrimental and should be studied from an 19th century perspective.

[Grundelwalken]

I've seen a growing trend (at least in my ward) and was wondering if this is happening all over. There have been a number of members (life long members) in my ward that have left the church because of information they've read on the INTERNET. Most of the reasons I have heard were because of the history of the church that they say has been "hidden" from the general membership. Their testimony of Joseph Smith as well as other early leaders has crumbled to nothing. One family left because of this reason and that of the church's stand on homosexuality. They also felt that they just would never be "good enough" to be members of the church. I'd like to say that I just never paid much attention to it, but can't say that I believe that. I began to notice that our Elder's Quorum has shrunk considerably and I started asking questions. My wife is the Relief Society Secretary and has heard many of the stories. On a personal note, she too has been reading the same things. She told me just a couple of weeks ago that she didn't know if she could believe in Joseph Smith because A. He was a polygamist, B. He was a Treasure Seeker and C. A host of other accusations. The one thing that I find in common with all of these instances is the Internet and the information that is widely available. Does anyone else notice this trend or is it just me? If so, why won't the church come out and defend the accusations? Or at least clarify any misunderstandings?

As a life-long member and a student of the history of the Church, I can say that there have been a number of 'startling' revelations I have discovered over the years. The treasure seeking had no effect on me but I have wondered about plural marriage (and I extremely glad we do not have that practice today). Having said that, I have never doubted what I know to be true. The Book of Mormon could not have been written by a young man and have the power that it does if not directed by God. I don't care how he did it--- the book is amazing. I don't care if Joseph married other mens wives because it has no bearing on what I know to be true. The context of the experiences from1830-1844 are not part of my understanding (at least not in all things) so I reserve judgment on things I don't understand. Just as I hope my children/grandchildren are generous in reading my journals and examining my life, I try to be gentle as I consider past events. What I do know is that Joseph was a Prophet and the Church is God's vehicle to help us get back to Him. We can ride along and try to do what He asks or we can listen to those on the side of the road and jump off and never arrive at our destination. That is the whole purpose of this journey, after all.

[Rivers]

I've seen a growing trend (at least in my ward) and was wondering if this is happening all over. There have been a number of members (life long members) in my ward that have left the church because of information they've read on the INTERNET. Most of the reasons I have heard were because of the history of the church that they say has been "hidden" from the general membership. Their testimony of Joseph Smith as well as other early leaders has crumbled to nothing. One family left because of this reason and that of the church's stand on homosexuality. They also felt that they just would never be "good enough" to be members of the church. I'd like to say that I just never paid much attention to it, but can't say that I believe that. I began to notice that our Elder's Quorum has shrunk considerably and I started asking questions. My wife is the Relief Society Secretary and has heard many of the stories. On a personal note, she too has been reading the same things. She told me just a couple of weeks ago that she didn't know if she could believe in Joseph Smith because A. He was a polygamist, B. He was a Treasure Seeker and C. A host of other accusations. The one thing that I find in common with all of these instances is the Internet and the information that is widely available. Does anyone else notice this trend or is it just me? If so, why won't the church come out and defend the accusations? Or at least clarify any misunderstandings?

I have heard many stories of members leaving the church for these reasons. I think correlation is a huge factor in this problem.