Lds Baptism - Significance Of The Element?

[Mudcat]

Heard something today from a member of the Church of Christ. They like LDS believe that immersion by an appropriately authorized individual is a requisite for salvation. I think LDS might think there are cases of salvation that are without baptism, in regards at least to the Telestial Kingdom and I am not asking about that in specific.

The CoC fellow, believed that the water of baptism was literally Christ's blood. Similar to the RCC's concept of transubstantiation, I suppose.

My question to LDS is in regards to an LDS baptism. Does the water have any significance beyond it's elemental state of being water?

Is it a memorial of Christ's blood, literally his blood or something like that?

What do you think?

Regards,

Mudcat

[bluebell]

I have never heard that the water held any symbolic stature, other than as a cleansing(sp?) agent in certain analogies.

Other popular analogies/symbolic ways to explain baptism by immersion in the LDS church are to allude to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and/or the death and burial of our old selves and the rebirth of the 'new creature' through Christ.

[etana]

To me it represents the Mikveh, cleansing the pious from contact with death and corruption. It represents the primordial waters from which the World was created. It represents the Womb which is the gateway through which we passed to enter this life and which we re-enter to begin our new life. It represents the Earth itself in which we are buried in death--following our Lord--and above which we are lifted in re-birth. It represents the flood which was the Mikveh in which the World was cleansed and Noah and his family were saved. It represents the Red Sea, through which Israel passed from Egypt into safety. And yes, it is the cleansing blood of Christ.

[Flyonthewall]

In my opinion, it is symbolic imagery. We wash with water to make things clean. Jesus Christ is the Living Waters. We are to be washed clean of our sins with the blood of Christ. Now does that mean that the waters of baptism ARE literally the blood of Christ? No.

[ERMD]

It's literally water.

[Anakin7]

In my opinion, it is symbolic imagery. We wash with water to make things clean. Jesus Christ is the Living Waters. We are to be washed clean of our sins with the blood of Christ. Now does that mean that the waters of baptism ARE literally the blood of Christ? No.

My sentiment as well. It is also a covenant acceptance of Jesus Christs Atoning Blood Sacrifice for us.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Nathair/|\]

I've always liked Moses 6:59-60.

59That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words ofeternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

[mfbukowski]

I've always liked Moses 6:59-60.

59That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words ofeternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Yep- that's the one I was going to quote, water, blood, and spirit.

Totally symbolic though. Poetic metaphor. If there was a hint of transubstantiation there, I would have on my track shoes and be running a 3 minute mile in the opposite direction!

[CARPE DIEM]

In my opinion, it is symbolic imagery. We wash with water to make things clean. Jesus Christ is the Living Waters. We are to be washed clean of our sins with the blood of Christ. Now does that mean that the waters of baptism ARE literally the blood of Christ? No.

As explained by the Missionaries recently, you are submerged completely with nothing staying above the surface in order to "Wash away" our sins or have a rebirth. It is then we are told to take the sacrament on Sundays to reconfirm this sacred ordinance!

[altersteve]

Going down into the water is symbolic of Christ's death, and rising up out of it is symbolic of His resurrection.

[BCSpace]

My question to LDS is in regards to an LDS baptism. Does the water have any significance beyond it's elemental state of being water? Is it a memorial of Christ's blood, literally his blood or something like that?

In addition to the aforemnetioned Moses 6, the water could indeed represent the cleansing blood of the Atonement. Similar to 1 Peter 3:20-21 where we see that water baptism is required for salvation and the saving of souls by water in Noah's time is given as a metaphor for baptism.

Otherwise, there is nothing magic about the water.

Going down into the water is symbolic of Christ's death, and rising up out of it is symbolic of His resurrection.

And this brings up yet another verse set showing the necessity and symbolism of baptism and the implication that it needs to be done by full immersion:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:3-7

Baptism not done by immersion does not fit the symbology here and so is not Biblical.

[Mudcat]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Glad I have a clearer understanding of your beliefs on the matter.

I had never really given the matter a great deal of thought till yesterday. I suppose hearing a persons view on a subject puts you in the frame of mind to determine your own position on it.

As I have thought about it though, it makes sense in a respect for water to symbolize earth in a way, given that immersion is a metaphor for burial. But I don't know if that is right exactly, people are buried at sea as well.

Any thoughts?

[mfbukowski]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Glad I have a clearer understanding of your beliefs on the matter.

I had never really given the matter a great deal of thought till yesterday. I suppose hearing a persons view on a subject puts you in the frame of mind to determine your own position on it.

As I have thought about it though, it makes sense in a respect for water to symbolize earth in a way, given that immersion is a metaphor for burial. But I don't know if that is right exactly, people are buried at sea as well.

Any thoughts?

Well a metaphor can be anything you want it to be. I guess the Empire State Building could be a metaphor for a mountain if you wanted it to, as a poet or something.

But there are other parallels with water- and symbolisms- we are immersed in water in our mother's womb, born in blood and water, (reborn through baptism) we are cleansed by taking a bath in water etc.

[Vance]

But there are other parallels with water- and symbolisms- we are immersed in water in our mother's womb, born in blood and water, (reborn through baptism) we are cleansed by taking a bath in water etc.

This is the direction I was going to go.

I would also say that in addition to water and blood, we have the spirit. As part of the first (physical) birth the spirit enters into the body giving it life. (Yes, I know, this presumes the pre-existence of the spirit.) And as part of the second birth (or spiritual birth) the person is (or should be) immersed in the Spirit.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Vance

[LeSellers]

As part of the first (physical) birth the spirit enters into the body giving it life. (Yes, I know, this presumes the pre-existence of the spirit.)

Presuming truth is not a bad thing, you know.

Lehi

[zerinus]

Heard something today from a member of the Church of Christ. They like LDS believe that immersion by an appropriately authorized individual is a requisite for salvation. I think LDS might think there are cases of salvation that are without baptism, in regards at least to the Telestial Kingdom and I am not asking about that in specific.

The CoC fellow, believed that the water of baptism was literally Christ's blood. Similar to the RCC's concept of transubstantiation, I suppose.

My question to LDS is in regards to an LDS baptism. Does the water have any significance beyond it's elemental state of being water?

We give it the same symbolism that the Bible gives it. It symbolises a washing or cleansing from sin:

Acts 22

:

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It also symbolizes the grave, whereby we die to our sins, and rise again unto the “newness of life:”

Romans 6

:

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2

:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Submitting to a water baptism is also a symbolic representation of our willingness to keep all of God’s commandments (2 Nephi 31:14; Alma 7:15; Moses 6:60).

Is it a memorial of Christ's blood, literally his blood or something like that?

No. While the scriptures do speak of the blood of Christ “cleansing” us from our sins (e.g. Revelation 1:5), I have never heard of water in baptism symbolizing the blood of Christ. That is not biblical, nor a doctrine of the LDS Church.

[thesometimesaint]

I think it is imagry of our death, and rebirth unto the new man.