Calm Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Abraham is a God. All exalted men are Gods.I find it helps with avoiding some confusion if one uses "gods" instead of "Gods" to refer to exalted men. "God" is the name that most people give to God the Father or their version of the ultimate Lord. We (LDS) do not mean when we call exalted men "gods" that they share the identical position as God and using "gods" can help make this distinction, I believe...at least for those who are inclined to try and understand our position.
Calm Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 How can Joseph Smith be "mingling with Gods" if he himself isn't exalted?Paradise According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, He visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30). http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=engAssuming Christ has visited paradise once, is there any reason why he and others resurrected already could not visit them again?Assuming a state of purity through full acceptance of the Atonement, is there any reason barring such from God's association? Is there anything in the scriptures that tells us that we won't be able to associate with God until after the Judgment?
Calm Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Is her exaltation garunteed because of a second annointing, or is she in jepardy becaouse God said He'd destroy her if she resisted that revelation?IMO, that would depend on whether or not she (and anyone else) is willing to repent of error when taught the full truth of not only the gospel, but the effects of their mortal choices and what these could mean for them and others eternally speaking (if not purified by the Lord through the Atonement) in the next life.
Calm Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 True, not fully. But exaltation is to live in God's presence.I used to believe that also about the pre-earth life until I took a Pearl of Great Price course with Joseph Fielding McConkie @ BYU. He completely shifted my beliefs in the pre-earth life including the belief that "we were in His presence before we came to Earth".And yet there was the Grand Council over which he presided...And this in the Gospel Principles manual:This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father.http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng
bookofmormontruth Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 http://lds.org/manua...-world?lang=engAssuming Christ has visited paradise once, is there any reason why he and others resurrected already could not visit them again?Assuming a state of purity through full acceptance of the Atonement, is there any reason barring such from God's association? Is there anything in the scriptures that tells us that we won't be able to associate with God until after the Judgment?I agree. Good points.But it leaves a lot of questions that we just don't know for certain. How long is a person in "paradise"? How do you explain Alvin, already in the Celestial Kingdom? If Abraham has been exalted, why not Joseph Smith? Where in the Gospels is immortality a qualification for exaltation?
bookofmormontruth Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 And yet there was the Grand Council over which he presided...And this in the Gospel Principles manual:http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=engI should rephrase. We weren't always in the presence of G-d.No unclean thing can dwell with Him. We weren't all one big - happy family, possibly in the beginning, but a war in heaven doesn't happen over night. Sin led up to war, and again G-d cannot be around sin.In addition, when are we not in the "presence" of G-d? He sees everything. I don't believe "presence" means what we are imagining it to be.
JAHS Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 I don't think anyone has mention that this earth is supposed to be the celestial kingdom, so it can't be that anyone is completely exalted yet although they may be destined for that.Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are described as already exalted Gods sitting in their thrones.The D&C 132 scriptures could just be an indication that these prophets' calling and election has been made sure. Later in Section 132 God tells Joseph the following:"For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father." (verse 49)God declares here that Joseph's calling and election is sure and after he dies will enjoy the same status as father Abraham. Having this "sealed" on Joseph means that, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it is as good as done.The D&C 132 scriptures could also be an example of a biblical figure of speech called "prophetic perfect". Prophetic perfect is used when a prophecy that is certain to happen in the future, is talked about as if it has already happened. Another example of this figure of speech is found in the prophetic scriptures of Isaiah where he declares, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given… ” (Isaiah 9:6), making it sound as if Jesus was already born, 700 years before it actually happened. It simply means that because it was prophesied by a prophet of God it is a sure thing and therefore is spoken of in present or past tense language. The same can be said regarding the scriptures describing the certain future exalted status of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Calm Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 How do you explain Alvin, already in the Celestial Kingdom?Joseph also saw his father (and mother IIRC) in the CK at the same time....his father was standing right next to him, quite alive. The vision would have been interpreted, imo, as one of the future.Having said that, I don't believe that time runs identically in mortality as it does in eternity, so there is no way to determine the when and who in most cases.
Questing Beast Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 The "first estate" is clearly in the presence of God the Father. I would like anyone to try and prove consistency in the scriptures and assert that "we" were not in "God's" presence in the first estate.Joseph Smith is "planning for his brethren" by being back in "God's presence" . The unembodied angels of heaven are also. So having a resurrected body is not required.Exaltation is a finalized state, inclusive with procreation. Therefore, many (most) beings in the CK will not be exalted. It means "continuation of the lives" and "eternal increase"; unmarried CK denizens live in the presence of God the Father and yet are "as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in marriage". They are saved but not exalted to the level of Existence that God the Father enjoys. That's the doctrine....
bookofmormontruth Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 The "first estate" is clearly in the presence of God the Father. I would like anyone to try and prove consistency in the scriptures and assert that "we" were not in "God's" presence in the first estate.Joseph Smith is "planning for his brethren" by being back in "God's presence" . The unembodied angels of heaven are also. So having a resurrected body is not required.Exaltation is a finalized state, inclusive with procreation. Therefore, many (most) beings in the CK will not be exalted. It means "continuation of the lives" and "eternal increase"; unmarried CK denizens live in the presence of God the Father and yet are "as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in marriage". They are saved but not exalted to the level of Existence that God the Father enjoys. That's the doctrine....Now you suddenly believe in the scriptures, doctrines and Joseph Smith?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 In a recently closed thread, bookofmormontruth wrote, “we know [Joseph Smith] is already exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.”This statement raises a few questions.1. Is it official doctrine that Joseph Smith has been exalted?2. Does a person need to be resurrected in order to be exalted?3. If a person does need to be resurrected in order to be exalted, how is it possible for Joseph Smith to have been resurrected since the Church found and reburied his body in Nauvoo?My guess is, if it would take him away from preaching the gospel in the Spirit World…no a chance!
Jeff K. Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Its a hymn, a nice one, very positive. But hymns are not the arbiter of doctrines so much as tools to help us focus on the celestial. I am sure Joseph Smith will be resurrected and achieve the highest degree of glory. Such martyrs that open dispensations do indeed deserve as much. I do not think he has been resurrected yet, nor is it important that he be resurrected before the song was sung. It is a wonderful song that gives context to his martyrdom and life.
katherine the great Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 No. Exaltation (according to the doctrine) only occurs AFTER the resurrection. All those "departed" are still disembodied until then; and those in Paradise are not exalted yet, because exaltation for this world has not generally occurred. I think anyone asserting that any of the prophets have been resurrected need to prove it by checking out their graves. And anyone asserting that those remains are not the "atoms" that will be used in the resurrection has either not read Joseph Smith's pointed teaching on the subject of the resurrection or does not believe it (him)....and anyone who does believe that our resurrected bodies will contain all of the "atoms" in our mortal bodies does not understand the carbon cycle. The atoms in your body have belonged to different molecules which have made up thousands (probably millions) of different life forms over the creative periods of this temporal world. Why is it fair that you get to take all of the atoms with you into the afterlife and leave so many others without them? That sounds a little selfish to me...
Questing Beast Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 and anyone who does believe that our resurrected bodies will contain all of the "atoms" in our mortal bodies does not understand the carbon cycle. The atoms in your body have belonged to different molecules which have made up thousands (probably millions) of different life forms over the creative periods of this temporal world. Why is it fair that you get to take all of the atoms with you into the afterlife and leave so many others without them? That sounds a little selfish to me...(to the tune of "Genealogy")Brontosaurus pee, I am drinking it, old Brontosaurus peeAnd the reason why I am drinking it is very clear to seeEvery drop of moisture in the atmosphere is older than BCWhat was once in that old dinosaur will turn to pee in me....
Calm Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 and anyone who does believe that our resurrected bodies will contain all of the "atoms" in our mortal bodies does not understand the carbon cycle. The atoms in your body have belonged to different molecules which have made up thousands (probably millions) of different life forms over the creative periods of this temporal world. Why is it fair that you get to take all of the atoms with you into the afterlife and leave so many others without them? That sounds a little selfish to me...I think I prefer having the atoms of my 20 year old body as opposed to the atoms I'm likely to have at my death, those atoms were much more energetic than the ones I've got now even. Hopefully whatever has those atoms now is not giving them much of a workout so they will still be all nice and fresh for me.
bookofmormontruth Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 I think I prefer having the atoms of my 20 year old body as opposed to the atoms I'm likely to have at my death, those atoms were much more energetic than the ones I've got now even. Hopefully whatever has those atoms now is not giving them much of a workout so they will still be all nice and fresh for me.Atoms don't get resurrected to their perfected energetic form?
katherine the great Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 Atoms don't get resurrected to their perfected energetic form? Maybe in theory, but which ones of us who posessed the same matter on earth will get to keep them for eternity? We are all recycled!
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