What If God Is A Woman?

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

If this was the case, what would be different?

Anything?

Impossible considering one of the most singular characteristics of gods are they are unions of men and women, as one flesh they would be equivalents / partners. God is a woman and a man.

My opinion as to why worship of the feminine aspect of God is not very kosher is because the idea that you can appeal to one or the other, you presume a blasphemous thought that you can somehow receive differing responses.

[Calm]

Impossible considering one of the most singular characteristics of gods are they are a unions of men and women, as one flesh they would be equivalents / partners. God is a woman, and a man.

My opinion is to why worship of the feminine aspect of God is not very kosher is because the idea that you can appeal to one or the other or both of them, you presume a blasphemous thought that you can somehow receive differing responses.

The idea of that prayer to someone other than the Father yields a different experience does seem to indicate a belief that there is some sort of division or difference among them as opposed to the seeking of the Father (and thus the Mother) through the Son with the aid of the Holy Ghost stresses the oneness of the Godhead.

[Questing Beast]

We also don't pray to the Holy Ghost or Jesus Christ.

I also talk to my dead husband all the time and other various spirits who tend to hang around.

Talking to a person that is not existent in mortality is not the same as praying.

I am not yet an expert in exactly what prayer is (recently have been asking God to show me more in the past 12 months or so), but I daresay it has something to do with sanctification and faith and things like this, not just conversation.

I also don't really think in terms of worship, even with Heavenly Father. It's a word that doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, if someone asked me, "Do you worship God?" obviously my answer is "Yes." But what is the etymology of the word 'worship' anyway? I'm thinking in the past, it also had something to do with progression more than just an awestruck or obeisance emotion. My relationship with my Father in heaven is that of daughter, so I don't really think of worship when I think of myself as a daughter. For Jesus Christ, I am a disciple, a follower. And I have a covenant relationship with all three members of the Godhead. There is no explicitly stated Mother in heaven in the words of the bindings or sealings (covenants). Prayer is related to covenants and sealings.

I don't make any distinction between prayer and worship: true worship is the same thing as prayer.

To me, "prayer" is your sincere thoughts and desires. Knowing "God" is integral to each of us; we have, after all, a permanent connection to "God" from the moment we were conceived in the mind of "God" and came to be. Knowing/believing this to be fact and not fancy, is the first step to awareness of the reality of "God" as someone more than some religious story first told in childhood. A literal connection to Deity makes any thought or desire impossible to hide or deny. Therefore, ALL thoughts and desires are in fact prayer. So we are continuously praying, forever. To direct our thoughts and desires consciously TO "God" is a whole 'nuther thing: it is a deliberate act, instead of an unconscious one. And that's where I am now: I pray to "God", and I talk to everyone else. It's the relationship that makes the difference. It is in fact impossible to pray to any being that does not know your thoughts and desires without your having to express/communicate them; and only "God" can know....

[MilissaBK]

Hi Cion and Maidservant and everyone else on this thread!

This is my very first real post, so please take it easy on me. Don't want to offend anyone, just really trying to figure this out. Its possible this has already been addressed and I missed the post, so please refer me to an older thread if its there.

I have been introduced to my Father in heaven through my covenants and I have been taught my relationship to him. No one has introduced me to my Mother in heaven in a similar manner, nor taught me my relationship to her other than to say that in "heaven" are marriages and families. The Godhead is a presidency over this earth and the progression of mortality. I do not know if our/a Mother in heaven has any covenant capacity with this. Maybe she does. It's something I don't know yet.

She knows where I am and she can say something to me if she wants.

Of the many things I found appealing in the Gospel is the promise of eternal marriages and families. When I first learned that there was a Heavenly Mother it was probably one of the happiest days in my life. Heavenly Parents, what an awesome concept really! (cyber hugs to Cion, I really like your take on this subject)

I like how Maidservant points out that we just don't know some things yet because they haven't been revealed. Just going to have to wait to find out, I guess.

But this topic has been very troubling for me and maybe this is my chance to ask. When the missionaries were visiting once I informed them, quite happily, that I knew about Heavenly Mother and how awesome I thought it was. One of them gave me this look I don't know for sure how to describe, like I had said something very very naughty or unseemly. He said we aren't suppose to discuss her and moved to another topic very quickly. Needless to say, this was a confusing reaction to me. He acted like it embarrassed him so I dropped it. Why such a reaction I wonder?

Glenn L. Pace, of the Quorum of the Seventy, gave a devotional speech at BYU a little over a year ago on "The Divine Nature and Destiny of Women." Its a great talk, which he concludes thus:

Sisters, I testify that when you stand in front of your heavenly parents in those royal courts on high and look into Her eyes and behold Her countenance, any question you ever had about the role of women in the kingdom will evaporate into the rich celestial air, because at that moment you will see standing directly in front of you, your divine nature and destiny"

Wow, that is heavy. We are going to have the same destiny that our own Heavenly Mother has! I love how Elder Pace (is that how you address a Seventy, btw??)references Her, with a capital H. Elder Pace is not only acknowledging Her existence but encouraging us to look forward to meeting Her. I know I am looking forward to meeting both Heavenly Father and Mother. I am grateful for these remarks and I think it shows the leaders of the Church are sensitive to how some women are struggling with this issue.

As wonderful as Elder Pace's words are, this is where I am having trouble. Is a woman's divine nature and destiny to have billions of children, as Heavenly Mother has, and yet have Her husband tell those children not to talk about or to Her and even go so far as to punish them if they do? Is this what I have to look forward to in the celestial kingdom, where my husband would even punish my children for wanting to talk (pray) to me? Obviously, I am missing something here because this just doesn't make sense to me. Help!

Peace,

Milissa

[Calm]

Hi Cion and Maidservant and everyone else on this thread!

But this topic has been very troubling for me and maybe this is my chance to ask. When the missionaries were visiting once I informed them, quite happily, that I knew about Heavenly Mother and how awesome I thought it was. One of them gave me this look I don't know for sure how to describe, like I had said something very very naughty or unseemly. He said we aren't suppose to discuss her and moved to another topic very quickly.

The most common reason I've heard that we don't know about Heavenly Mother much is that Heavenly Father desires to protect her from the sort of abuse he gets, including her name being taken in vain....so there's been a tradition developed in the Church where talking about Heavenly Mother in a casual way is thought of as being disrespectful.

Another possibility is that there was also a time in the 90s where someone was excommunicated for teaching false doctrine about Heavenly Mother (IIRC she claimed that the Godhead was Heavenly Father, Mother and the Son---it's been years since I read her book....but that theory might have been after her excommunication), if the missionary was aware of that, he might have been concerned that was what you were talking about.

I don't see Heavenly Father as likely punishing anyone who is sincerely seeking God and believes for whatever reason Heavenly Mother is to be directly involved in that seeking at this time. However, if the Father has directed us to seek Him in a certain way, then I believe that while he may not punish someone for using another way, that if that person ignores God's instructions he will lack in the fullness of blessings he could receive through obedience.

[aspire]

I think finding Heavenly Mother is a very personal experience and not one to be shared. If for no other reason than the responses on this board both pro and con. To seek Her and find Her is sacred and not something to be discussed with the populace in the Church or out.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

The concept that our mortal and resurrected bodies are patterned after those of Heavenly Parents is, to me, one of the most beautiful and important aspects of the Restoration, and we should not be shy about it.

An excellent history from BYU Studies of Heavenly Mother in LDS thought: https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.1PaulsenPulidoMother-5ff69b7d-ee2f-47d4-94ff-3669578597b1.pdf

"How to Worship Heavenly Mother (Without Getting Excommunicated)" by Kevin Barney: http://www.mormonmayday.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/How-to-worship-our-mother-in-Heaven-without-getting-excommunicated.pdf

The Book of Mormon's emphasis on the vision of the Tree of Life is most likely related to a Heavenly Consort, as explained by Daniel C. Peterson in "Nephi and His Asherah": http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=13&chapid=94

The question "Does God Have a Wife?" is discussed by Alyson Skabelund Von Feldt: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=639

Further information about "The Assyrian Tree of Life: Tracing the Origins of Jewish Monotheism and Greek Philosophy": http://www.scribd.com/doc/36145401/The-Assyrian-Tree-of-Life-Tracing-the-Origins-of-Jewish-Mo

Finally, Hugh Nibley's books 'Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri' ( http://www.amazon.com/Message-Joseph-Smith-Papyri-Endowment/dp/159038539X ) and 'One Eternal Round' ( http://www.amazon.com/One-Eternal-Round-Hugh-Nibley/dp/160641237X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306044489&sr=1-1 ) each have sections dealing with the Queen of Heaven.

And of course, Section 132 of the D&C: http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

[jo1952]

And this is precisely why I don't understand the aversion to praying to God the mother. IMO, we should have paintings and sculptures of her just like we have of Jesus and HF. We should have the opportunity to go to temple square at Christmas time and admire a large statue of both mothers of Jesus. They should let us sit in a room and ponder the meaning of her while beautiful music plays in the background. It is amazing that Jesus was born. It was also amazing that a woman bore him into the world. Both of those things should be celebrated. We are so afraid of looking like the Greeks but this is truly what we have. Many Gods that each bring their own part of the story to us.

You would need to get Her express permission on which likeness of Her she prefers. It would not be cool or smart to use a version which She considers reflects a bad hair day! So, there lies the rub. (Did I REALLY need to point this out????)

jo

[MilissaBK]

Hi!

Thanks for these references. I had totally missed the Barney article when I did my own search, so I really appreciate that!

Peace,

Milissa

The concept that our mortal and resurrected bodies are patterned after those of Heavenly Parents is, to me, one of the most beautiful and important aspects of the Restoration, and we should not be shy about it.

An excellent history from BYU Studies of Heavenly Mother in LDS thought: https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.1PaulsenPulidoMother-5ff69b7d-ee2f-47d4-94ff-3669578597b1.pdf

"How to Worship Heavenly Mother (Without Getting Excommunicated)" by Kevin Barney: http://www.mormonmayday.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/How-to-worship-our-mother-in-Heaven-without-getting-excommunicated.pdf

The Book of Mormon's emphasis on the vision of the Tree of Life is most likely related to a Heavenly Consort, as explained by Daniel C. Peterson in "Nephi and His Asherah": http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=13&chapid=94

The question "Does God Have a Wife?" is discussed by Alyson Skabelund Von Feldt: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=639

Further information about "The Assyrian Tree of Life: Tracing the Origins of Jewish Monotheism and Greek Philosophy": http://www.scribd.com/doc/36145401/The-Assyrian-Tree-of-Life-Tracing-the-Origins-of-Jewish-Mo

Finally, Hugh Nibley's books 'Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri' ( http://www.amazon.com/Message-Joseph-Smith-Papyri-Endowment/dp/159038539X ) and 'One Eternal Round' ( http://www.amazon.com/One-Eternal-Round-Hugh-Nibley/dp/160641237X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306044489&sr=1-1 ) each have sections dealing with the Queen of Heaven.

And of course, Section 132 of the D&C: http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

[cinepro]

Today we had an interesting Elder's Quorum lesson on...Heavenly Mother. Not a part of the lesson. Not a tangent. But the whole lesson! The teacher started off with "Oh My Father" and then discussed every other quote or statement from a Church leader he could find. Several class members made comments, including one suggesting we be open to the possibility of "Heavenly Mothers".

Interesting to say the least.

[CV75]

Is a woman's divine nature and destiny to have billions of children, as Heavenly Mother has, and yet have Her husband tell those children not to talk about or to Her and even go so far as to punish them if they do? Is this what I have to look forward to in the celestial kingdom, where my husband would even punish my children for wanting to talk (pray) to me?

No, THEY are simply saving the fullness (the best) for last.

[Deborah]

I loved Valerie Hudson's presentation at Fair Conference on "The Two Trees."

The Two Trees

Really puts the roles of men and women in perspective.

I think about my Heavenly Mother on occasion. But I would never presume to pray to her. I do think she is aware of what we are going through and counsels with our Heavenly Father on our needs. It is comforting to know I have a HM. However, I have teenage grandchildren and when they need blessings it is their father they go to.

[Maidservant]

Today we had an interesting Elder's Quorum lesson on...Heavenly Mother. Not a part of the lesson. Not a tangent. But the whole lesson! The teacher started off with "Oh My Father" and then discussed every other quote or statement from a Church leader he could find. Several class members made comments, including one suggesting we be open to the possibility of "Heavenly Mothers".

Interesting to say the least.

Do you know where this was coming from? Was it from a manual? Or just the Elder's Quorum Presidents idea of what needed to be discussed that day?

[LeSellers]

Do you know where this was coming from? Was it from a manual? Or just the Elder's Quorum Presidents idea of what needed to be discussed that day?

The first Sunday of the month has no manual. It's the (Elders' Quorum) "Presidency Message", and since he has the keys for that quorum, he is authorized to teach whatever he feels his quourm needs.

That does not mean he did the right thing, and it is certainly not something I could see myself doing. Our Mother in Heaven is far too sacred to expose Her to the ridicule even of (ostensibly) faithful Saints. Remember what happened the last time that was the case: the Canaanites turned Her into a sex obejct, instituted temple prostitutes, and made sex a part of their rituals.

Father ain't gonna let that happen again.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Do you know where this was coming from? Was it from a manual? Or just the Elder's Quorum Presidents idea of what needed to be discussed that day?

What LeSellers said. It's teacher's choice on the first Sunday of the month. What's funny is that I had actually talked with the teacher last week and he said he was going to give a lesson on "Heavenly Mother", and I joked that it would be a short lesson. It never occurred to me that he might be serious until the lesson actually started.

[LeSellers]

What LeSellers said. It's teacher's choice on the first Sunday of the month.

Please, it's "Lehi".

And, a not-so-minor quibble: the teacher has/should have nothing to do with selecting the lesson. That's the key-holding president's job. (In this case, I hope the "teacher" was the "president", so there would be no problem. However, we need to be precise when discussing this kind of thing.) Teachers are not authorized to present what they want to, but they can present it how they want to. Doctrine and covenants clerly tells us tha tthe president's repsonsibility is sit with [his quorum] and teach them their duties. It does not say that a teacher should do so.

That's true for every quorum (the Deacons' Quorum President is responsible for telling the quorum instructor what to teach, the Teachers' Quroum Presidnet for his quorum, the Bishop for the Priests, etc.) The same thing is true for the Relief Society and each of the Young Women's classes (I believe this last is correct; I don't have much experience with Young Women's). Any advisor/instructor who takes that away from the president is abusing his own authroity, and depriving the president of his rights and responsibilites; I believe there are eternal consequnces for doing so.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Please, it's "Lehi".

And, a not-so-minor quibble: the teacher has/should have nothing to do with selecting the lesson. That's the key-holding president's job. (In this case, I believe the "teacher" is the "president", so there would be no problem. However, we need to be precise when discussing this kind of thing.) Teachers are not authorized to present what they want to, but they can present it how they want to.

To be clear, in this case the teacher was a member of the Presidency, but not The President.

[LeSellers]

To be clear, in this case the teacher was a member of the Presidency, but not The President.

In accordance with how I edited my earlier message, I hope the president was on board for this.

Lehi

[IloveaMormon]

And this is precisely why I don't understand the aversion to praying to God the mother. IMO, we should have paintings and sculptures of her just like we have of Jesus and HF. We should have the opportunity to go to temple square at Christmas time and admire a large statue of both mothers of Jesus. They should let us sit in a room and ponder the meaning of her while beautiful music plays in the background. It is amazing that Jesus was born. It was also amazing that a woman bore him into the world. Both of those things should be celebrated. We are so afraid of looking like the Greeks but this is truly what we have. Many Gods that each bring their own part of the story to us.

Are you not suprised sister that anything which truly honors Heavenly Mother is seen by the LDS church as a distraction at best and threatening to it's all powerful overly Patriachal Priesthood at worst?

My boyfriend contends women in the LDS faith are completely content with having so little mention of God the Mother, Heavenly Mother (God's wife) limited stories in the Bible about women. I believe more women are dissapointed than will admit. After all, once again, it is a wifes duty to not question the power of the Priesthood and to be obedient.

[IloveaMormon]

I have been told by a LDS the doctrine teaches God has a 'feminine side' as well as male side if you will.

I find myself asking if it is our goal to live a Christ like existence what does it matter about Gods gender identity? Souldn't our focus be on our actions and thoughts toward Gods Children? Their message to us which is important and truly connects us, not their physical form... but wait, in LDS thought the physical body is very important almost to a compuIsive degree.

[Maidservant]

Welcome to the board .

Are you not suprised sister that anything which truly honors Heavenly Mother is seen by the LDS church as a distraction at best and threatening to it's all powerful overly Patriachal Priesthood at worst?

You are mistaken. The desire is to honor Heavenly Mother, even if you disagree that what is done constitutes that.

If you see only patriarchy in the priesthood, then you have a journey ahead of you to learn more if you should so desire .

limited stories in the Bible about women.

The Bible is full of powerful and godly women who are central characters to the narratives and have direct connnections with God. More women in the Bible, I would say, than in any other sacred text of any other religion (in my limited experience, haven't read them all).

it is a wifes duty to not question the power of the Priesthood and to be obedient.

No, it isn't. Wives are not taught nor asked to obey their husbands.

I have been told by a LDS the doctrine teaches God has a 'feminine side' as well as male side if you will.

Hmm, well we have Heavenly Parents and we are made in the image of God, male and female. It is not doctrine to term this 'male side' and 'feminine side'.

I find myself asking if it is our goal to live a Christ like existence what does it matter about Gods gender identity?

Good question. I expect God will continue to lead you to the answer.

Souldn't our focus be on our actions and thoughts toward Gods Children?

Absolutely.

Their message to us which is important and truly connects us, not their physical form... but wait, in LDS thought the physical body is very important almost to a compuIsive degree.

Compulsive? Or sacred? The body is sacred. Can one overdo sacred?

Part of God's message is that he has a body, that your body is like his body, and that we will have our bodies eternally. Part of God's message is the joy of a literal resurrection.

All worthwhile observations and questions that you've made. Keep seeking, you'll find everything God has to show you about yourself and about him . Sounds like you already have a good bit of wisdom.

[Deborah]

Are you not suprised sister that anything which truly honors Heavenly Mother is seen by the LDS church as a distraction at best and threatening to it's all powerful overly Patriachal Priesthood at worst?

I had to chuckle when I read this. Don't you know it's the Relief Society that keeps the wards going?

My boyfriend contends women in the LDS faith are completely content with having so little mention of God the Mother, Heavenly Mother (God's wife) limited stories in the Bible about women.

It's not a matter of contentment; it's a matter of divine instruction. Heavenly Mother is held in great reverence but she is not the one we pray to per scripture.

After all, once again, it is a wifes duty to not question the power of the Priesthood and to be obedient.

Actually it is the wife's duty to be a counselor to her husband. She doesn't unquestioning "obey" him but follows him in righteousness. If he is doing something wrong it is also her duty to let him know.

[cinepro]

I have been told by a LDS the doctrine teaches God has a 'feminine side' as well as male side if you will.

I find myself asking if it is our goal to live a Christ like existence what does it matter about Gods gender identity? Souldn't our focus be on our actions and thoughts toward Gods Children? Their message to us which is important and truly connects us, not their physical form... but wait, in LDS thought the physical body is very important almost to a compuIsive degree.

It's not a "compulsion", it's simply the doctrine. God is a man, in that he has a physical body that is easily identified as "male" in the same way other human bodies are. He doesn't have a "feminine side", he has a wife who is a separate physical being that is female in the same way human females are female. This is "emphasized" because of the implications for our eternal state; they are the example for us.

If you listen to the teachings of LDS Church leaders, I think you'll find that they're 99% "actions and thoughts towards God's children", and 1% "God has a body".

[IloveaMormon]

It's not a "compulsion", it's simply the doctrine. God is a man, in that he has a physical body that is easily identified as "male" in the same way other human bodies are. He doesn't have a "feminine side", he has a wife who is a separate physical being that is female in the same way human females are female. This is "emphasized" because of the implications for our eternal state; they are the example for us.

If you listen to the teachings of LDS Church leaders, I think you'll find that they're 99% "actions and thoughts towards God's children", and 1% "God has a body".

I am listening very very intently. I'd like nothing more than for that sentiment (99% loving actions and thoughts toward Gods children") to be true. Unfortunatly in my view, it is not. There's no room for it with all the shame, guilt and fear themes in what is taught in church every Sunday.

The focus on the body is really interesting. It is well known Mormon men have 'issues' with pornography. Why do you think this is?

Sexual repression breeds this problem and repression is rampant in the LDS church. All this focus of 'rising above carnal bodily desires and yet the 'grand prize' for the Priesthood is that they get to live this Hugh Heffner existence just constantly having sex in the Celestial Kingdom. Wow. That's so 'rising above the body'.??? What a sacrifice you make as men. Wait a take one for the team.

So the message is 'At one time when Joseph Smith had a 'revelation' of Polygamy (he had an affair with the Alder girl way before he claimed to have this revelation by the way and he also married women who were already married) and it was a requirement. Because Brigham Young realized Utah couldn't become a state with Polygamy it was 'revealed' it was time to stop but in the afterlife polygamy is expected again. A REQUIREMENT to be in the presence of God in the highest glory in fact.

Sounds wishy washy to me. Sounds chauvenistic and definately manmade and nothing whatsoever to do with the plan of God.

The eternal state. Sounds like a man gets everything he wants. He gets to be a God. All of the trappings of an earthly life but better. It is sad to me the only way you can embrace the great mystery of what happens after this life is to deny the mystery and trust in God and subscribe to a wacky egotistical story jospeh smith made up that you as men are comfortable with...

A magical kingdom where everything revolves around Men. How lovely for you.

[Deborah]

It is well known Mormon men have 'issues' with pornography.

It's well known that a lot of men have issues with pornography and not just in a "sexually repressed environment." It is an epidemic of our society as a whole.

The eternal state. Sounds like a man gets everything he wants. He gets to be a God.

And woman gets to be goddess. A man cannot attain exaltation without the woman. When God created man he created them "male and female." You have a very warped view of exaltation and the relationship of men and women. Did you read the Two Trees previously referenced?