Can The Church Admit Some Fault In Order To Heal And Move On?

[Brian 2.0]

So when are you going to write the Curriculum Planning Department to make the suggestion they get another picture to use?

I guess I will.

An so ends this discussion.

Curtains close, then open.

Brian 2.0, Calmoriah, and Scott Lloyd join up on stage smiling. They grabs hands and bow to the audience. The crowd cheers and as the guests leave they have various opinions on not only what was debated, but who won. Whichever way you slice it. It was a fun ride.

[Libs]

The "Curriculum Planning Dept" is going to hate Calmoriah, for referring all of these people to them.

[Brian 2.0]

The "Curriculum Planning Dept" is going to hate Calmoriah, for referring all of these people to them.

HA! I actually just went to lds.org to make good on my word and in the search bar typed: Curriculum Planning Department

This is the page it sent me to:

This Web site is down for maintenance.

We're sorry about the inconvenience. Please come back later.

[Calm]

Would it, really, affect someone's salvation, in the long term? I hadn't thought about this, but if there was a ban on blacks in the priesthood, in this lifetime, would that have automatically extended into the hereafter? I always thought, if there was a ban, that would not stand in the eternities.

It was always taught from the beginning that it would eventually end, but when that happen or what it would mean was never stated as a church doctrine (unfortunately there were plenty who were willing to give their personal interpretation....thankfully they were very, very wrong).

[Calm]

I guess I will.

An so ends this discussion.

Curtains close, then open.

Brian 2.0, Calmoriah, and Scott Lloyd join up on stage smiling. They grabs hands and bow to the audience. The crowd cheers and as the guests leave they have various opinions on not only what was debated, but who won. Whichever way you slice it. It was a fun ride.

[ELF1024]

This Web site is down for maintenance.

We're sorry about the inconvenience. Please come back later.

Good stuff, gotta love it.

[Calm]

The "Curriculum Planning Dept" is going to hate Calmoriah, for referring all of these people to them.

Hmmm....maybe it's time to change my alias...

[Libs]

HA! I actually just went to lds.org to make good on my word and in the search bar typed: Curriculum Planning Department

This is the page it sent me to:

This Web site is down for maintenance.

We're sorry about the inconvenience. Please come back later.

Haha! All Cal's fault!

[jadams_4242]

Since it is quite obvious that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other top leaders of the church made mistakes (just like any other person on this earth has done), do you think the Church will ever decide to make a big announcement to the world that these mistakes were made in an effort to heal and move on with their current agenda of becoming a more "mainstream" church?

For example, they could announce on www.lds.org and Deseret Morning News something about Joseph's practice of polygamy. They don't need to go into detail, but they could just say Joseph made a mistake in the way he practiced plural marriage. If the public asks for more, they could point them to FAIR.

What good would this action take?

It would provide a way for the church to truly move on. It would be a way of repenting and healing. I think the public would appreciate this as a sign of maturity in the organization.

Now when young people start looking on the Internet and see weird LDS church history, they will know it was a mistake and be able to understand that their beloved church is in a better place now. It would provide some comfort to those who wish to stay LDS.

Thoughts?

right and while were at it lets also make the statement that abraham,isaic e;t;c..... were not perfect either.

[Kenngo1969]

The power to be healed is derived from the choice to apologize.

Oh, my goodness! Healing would hardly ever occur under those circumstances! Most rapists don't apologize; at least some rape victims heal. Most murderers don't apologize; at least some loved ones of those who've suffered this fate heal. Most abusers don't apologize; at least some abuse victims heal. Et cetera. Why would one want to surrender one's power to become whole again (at least, as whole as possible, given mortality's constraints) to another person's arbitrary decision to withhold an apology?

[USU78]

Since it is quite obvious that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other top leaders of the church made mistakes (just like any other person on this earth has done), do you think the Church will ever decide to make a big announcement to the world that these mistakes were made in an effort to heal and move on with their current agenda of becoming a more "mainstream" church?

For example, they could announce on www.lds.org and Deseret Morning News something about Joseph's practice of polygamy. They don't need to go into detail, but they could just say Joseph made a mistake in the way he practiced plural marriage. If the public asks for more, they could point them to FAIR.

What good would this action take?

It would provide a way for the church to truly move on. It would be a way of repenting and healing. I think the public would appreciate this as a sign of maturity in the organization.

Now when young people start looking on the Internet and see weird LDS church history, they will know it was a mistake and be able to understand that their beloved church is in a better place now. It would provide some comfort to those who wish to stay LDS.

Thoughts?

No. Absolutely not. Nothing to apologize for. The Boo-Birds will boo no matter what you do, so why pay attention?

[Kenngo1969]

I get the feeling you are not really reading people's posts accurately. How tedious!

Do I detect a a teensy, weensy bit of snark ... from Cal? Yeesh, maybe the world really is ending tomorrow!

[Kenngo1969]

cion, dude, just say this:

"The Church should apologize for <whatever it is that wronged you>. Here's why <reasons>"

Your OP is kind of a cloak and dagger thing. Just come right and say what you think.

Oh, but what fun would that be? I'd much rather watch scion disingenously bob-and-weave while the rest of us try in good faith to pin him/her down!

[Kenngo1969]

... I'm not trying to dig up dirt and make the church look bad. I just made a bad call, that's all. ...

Oh.

Okay.

[Kenngo1969]

I have a better picture of where people on this board are coming from. Thank you for your time. I sincerely mean it.

I don't understand why people are saying I was trying to "catch" you. Unfortunately, I came across as not being sincere. It's too bad, really.

Oh, I know! I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you, that poor, picked-on scion's motives have been questioned! It's appalling!

[cion]

Anyone want to go hang out? Maybe it will be as fun as hanging out on this awesome discussion forum.

[Brian 2.0]

Anyone want to go hang out? Maybe it will be as fun as hanging out on this awesome discussion forum.

I will. This full day on this thread was exhausting.

I'll bring the coca-cola and tobacco-less cigarettes. I've got a couple movies that are rated-R but I got them in Canada where they don't use the MPAA rating system. I've got a "Devil's Bible" and we can play some cards if you want.

[cion]

I will. This full day on this thread was exhausting.

I'll bring the coca-cola and tobacco-less cigarettes. I've got a couple movies that are rated-R but I got them in Canada where they don't use the MPAA rating system. I've got a "Devil's Bible" and we can play some cards if you want.

Sounds awesome! Let's do it!

[sunstoned]

Sure. I just don't see any that need to be done now or in the future. The plural sealings of JS have been well known for quite a long time and don't need to be taught up front as it were. It certainly is a stumblingblock for the spiritually and intellectually dishonest though. I'm not sure the Lord is looking for that type of person to inherit his kingdom.

Maybe you could clear something up for me BC. How was JS "sealed" to Fanny Alger when the affair took place three years before the sealing power of the Melchizedek Priesthood was supposedly restored to the earth? If it was just an sealing, then why did Oliver Cowdery referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”?

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

As explained before, there are historical documents about seer-stone-in-hat method for translation. I was asking you for historical documents which talked about the translation by means of reading-the-characters-off-the-golden-plates, which is what the picture depicts.

If there are historical documents that show that, then yes, both accounts are are "just as inaccurate" But if there are not, then they are not on the same footing.

There is no official account of the details of how it was done, by the only two people to have translated (Joseph and the attempt of Oliver) who would only say that it was done by "the gift and power of God" and as by instruction, they did not disclose their methods, allows for some of us express uncertainty as to whether the "face in the hat" is hearsay by people who never actually "saw" Joseph Smith translate nor explain where their versions came from.

While Joseph's hat method is consistent with the known methods of how the biblical Urim and Thummin was used. (The Urim and Thummin would be put in in the dark in the Holy of Holies in the Temple and it would "glow" and "transmit messages" from God to the Children of Israel.) There are accounts such as Joseph's brother William in 1891 report a completely different explanation, right down to the usage of a hat:

"William Smith explained that the Prophet used the Urim and Thummim attached to the breastplate by a rod that held the seer stones set in the rims of a bow before his eyes. “The instrument caused a strain on Joseph’s eyes, and he sometimes resorted to covering his eyes with a hat to exclude the light in part” (Smith, Rod of Iron 1, 3 [February 1924]:7)

[Calm]

Maybe you could clear something up for me BC. How was JS "sealed" to Fanny Alger when the affair took place three years before the sealing power of the Melchizedek Priesthood was supposedly restored to the earth? If it was just an sealing, then why did Oliver Cowdery referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”?

See:

http://www.fairwiki.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Fanny_Alger_and_William_McLellin

http://www.fairwiki.org/Polygamy_book/Introduction_of_eternal_marriage

[Whiskeypete]

(Note: the following is based on my Personal Opinion as to the reason for the Priesthood ban. My supposition may be incorrect, i am using it as an example to address the Original Post)

Was it a mistake for Church members (and most of the entire country) to have racist opinions for much of the history of the church?

I would say yes.

Was it a mistake for the Lord to enact policies that would enable the Church to remain functioning in such a society, knowing that someday we would get over those incorrect opinions?

I would say no.

So, who should apologize? The Church? The Lord? or the individual members who had such opinions.

And just who would be healed by this "apology"?

In my opinion, the only people who would be "healed" by the types of apologies that are being requested, are those whose consciences are wounded by their apostasy or opposition to the Church and would feel more justified in their opposition.

[dougtheavenger]

Since it is quite obvious that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other top leaders of the church made mistakes (just like any other person on this earth has done), do you think the Church will ever decide to make a big announcement to the world that these mistakes were made in an effort to heal and move on with their current agenda of becoming a more "mainstream" church?

For example, they could announce on www.lds.org and Deseret Morning News something about Joseph's practice of polygamy. They don't need to go into detail, but they could just say Joseph made a mistake in the way he practiced plural marriage. If the public asks for more, they could point them to FAIR.

What good would this action take?

It would provide a way for the church to truly move on. It would be a way of repenting and healing. I think the public would appreciate this as a sign of maturity in the organization.

Now when young people start looking on the Internet and see weird LDS church history, they will know it was a mistake and be able to understand that their beloved church is in a better place now. It would provide some comfort to those who wish to stay LDS.

Thoughts?

Like any serious Christian I have issues with the scriptures. Nothing in the Book of Mormon or church history comes close to making the short list. At the top of the list is Jeremiah's order to exterminate the Amalikites. Genocide is a problem for me. I find it interesting that nobody asks political candidates who are Baptists what stand they take on the Amalikite genocide. When are other Christian Churches going to admit that that was a mistake and "allow healing"?

[Libs]

Like any serious Christian I have issues with the scriptures. Nothing in the Book of Mormon or church history comes close to making the short list. At the top of the list is Jeremiah's order to exterminate the Amalikites. Genocide is a problem for me. I find it interesting that nobody asks political candidates who are Baptists what stand they take on the Amalikite genocide. When are other Christian Churches going to admit that that was a mistake and "allow healing"?

Many of the more liberal Christians don't accept that those kinds of things were from God. They attribute them to the culture of the times.

[Mars]

Libs, but the same question can be asked: How could a prophet of God be responsible for those kinds of things?

If we're willing to understand that our present cultural understandings of what's right and wrong can be different from what happened to Jeremiah, we should extend the same courtesy to all choices between right and wrong in all their contexts. Early Mormon leaders included.