Can The Church Admit Some Fault In Order To Heal And Move On?

[Libs]

As I said and want to reiterate as I am really sincere about it' date=' I do hope you can find your way back. If I can be of any help no matter how small please let me know. [/quote']

Thanks, Ray. That's very kind of you.

As stated above if polygamy itself was the deal breaker I would have to side with athiesm or at the very least agnosticism. The way I see it God instructed Joseph to do several things and then left him to work out the details. I do not believe that God gave Joseph detailed instruction in all things. I think he said you need to organize my church so get to it and get it organized. Then I think God told him to reinstate the practice of polygamy and the order of celestial marriage and left it for him to learn and work out the details. With this method are mistakes made? Yes, but valuable lessons are learned and strength gained.

If it were just polygamy (which I don't have a problem with, generally speaking) I'd probably still be in the church. It was young girls and already married women (plus the reasons given, for polygamy, in my Gospel Doctrine class didn't exactly mesh with what I learned later).

But, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Putting the church together wouldn't have been an exact science, in implementation, I agree...and I can accept that (in general).

Appreciate your input...thank you.

[sjdawg]

Funny how loading the dice is such a reliable way of getting the result we are seeking.

Since neither the prophet nor any of the witnesses that I am aware of reported him using a "peepstone," and since that particular descriptor is always found in the words of hostile commentators, why on earth would you expect the Church to co-opt that term?

OTOH, if you were to search on seer stone, you might actually find something.

But the question is: do you really want to?

Regards,

Pahoran

Tried searching seer stone in the manuals as well. The only thing I could find was a reference to a seer stone used by Hyrum Page. There were some references in magazine articles but not in the Manuals.

Again, Someone who is better than I at using the search function could likely find some info.

[sjdawg]

It seems you are suddenly less than specific as to what it is about the church that somehow "drove" you away. I commented on the description you gave and wondered at questions that remain unanswered, nothing more.

I think the term "drove" me away is yours and not mine. Nothing Drove me away. I made a very deliberate decision to leave.

[LeSellers]

Nothing Drove me away. I made a very deliberate decision to leave.

And yet you're still here. What's up with that?

Lehi

[sjdawg]

And yet you're still here. What's up with that?

Lehi

I just enjoy the witty banter with you.

[Tramper]

The problem often stems from the way the church are trying to avoid facts. It gives me the impression that the church regard some of the circumstances as somewhat embarrassing. Instead they rewrite the history and have Joseph Smith (the movie The Prophet of The Restoration) introducing the sealing of children to their parents and in general presenting him as a stalwart monogamist. The marriage with Emma seems to be filled with love and trust. In reality though there were a lot of internal stress and the marriage were in many ways dysfunctional. The very fact that Joseph married other women (young virgins and already married women) behind Emma’s back is very revealing. It would be interesting to know what modern apostles can teach us about that, and why it was necessary. The events made Emma bitter for the rest of her life.

cut & paste deleted for plagiarism and fair use violation

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Finally. Shouldn’t the church apologize for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor? I’ve read the content of the first and last issue, and finds nothing troublesome in it. Surely God could not have ordered the destruction.

Why? Has some one claimed that JS was doing it in the name of God?

[Tramper]

Why? Has some one claimed that JS was doing it in the name of God?

Excuse from the church, yes or no? I mean destroying property belonging to someone else...

[Jeff K.]

Maybe an apology from the Nauvoo City Council?

[Tramper]

Maybe an apology from the Nauvoo City Council?

A both expected and stupid comment. In many ways it reflects the Mormon attitude. Well the church never makes any decisions. The leaders do. Those decisions could be binding for the church. The Nauvoo City Council (obvious to all informed people) was effectively controlled by the leading elders in the church. In those days there was no clear distinction between state and church. At least not in the reality and especially not in Nauvoo. The "church controlled" decision in the council was a mistake. It led to the death of the prophet. In other words; the martyrdom is nothing but an invention of the Mormon Church. Of course no apology is expected.

Following words would be wonderful to hear from the Mormon leaders. "The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was a huge mistake. It is sad to know that this horrible decision, inspired by Lucifer as it was, lead to death of our dear prophet. From this we must learn that believers and unbelievers must be able to coexist in peace and respect."

[Calm]

This editing of the history is nothing but dishonesty in the end.

Kind of like borrowing stuff from UTLM and editing it to make it sound like your own work?

For example:

UTLM:

Joseph Smith's involvement in magic practices had always been denied by the LDS Church until 1971, when Wesley P. Walters discovered two original documents which proved that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and was arrested and examined before a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, N.Y. in 1826. One of the documents is Justice Albert Neeley's bill to the county showing the costs involved in several hearings held in 1826. The fifth item from the top of Neeley's bill mentions the examination of "JosephSmith The Glass Looker."

Tramper:

Joseph Smith's involvement in magic practices had always been denied by the LDS Church until 1971, when two original documents were discovered which proved that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and was arrested and examined before a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, N.Y. in 1826. One of the documents is Justice Albert Neeley's bill to the county showing the costs involved in several hearings held in 1826. The fifth item from the top of Neeley's bill mentions the examination of "Joseph Smith The Glass Looker."

[Jeff K.]

Was it by order of the Nauvoo City Council that the press was destroyed, or by order of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

If Lilburn Boggs was a Christian leader as well as the Democratic party leader of the state. Should the Democratic party apologize or should the governor seat apologize for the miscarriage of justice?

Not such a stupid answer if you think about the organizations involved as well as the individuals.

Those decisions could be binding for the church.

CFR in the Nauvoo Charter or Charter for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in which Nauvoo City ordinances were binding for the church and its membership.

The Nauvoo City Council (obvious to all informed people) was effectively controlled by the leading elders in the church. In those days there was no clear distinction between state and church.

Much like the effective control of democrats in the territory?

The "church controlled" decision in the council was a mistake. It led to the death of the prophet. In other words; the martyrdom is nothing but an invention of the Mormon Church. Of course no apology is expected.

Hmmm, in other words a child steals candy and is killed by the police when attempting to flee, the child deserved it since stealing candy led to the death of the child.

Martyrdom is for those who did not deserve death. The apostles could have very easily followed the presumed laws of the Roman land, or Jewish Council and they would have been spared, but because they did not follow the law, they were killed. We call them martyrs because we feel their deaths were undeserved, especially given the infraction (even though for them the law was indeed death for their actions, especially among the Jews). Did Joseph Smith deserve to die because he convinced the council to close down a newspaper?

If Joseph did not deserve to die for destroying the paper then we can safely say he was a martyr. If you think Joseph Smith deserved death for destroying the paper, then I would like to explore your reasoning more fully.

[Tramper]

Kind of like borrowing stuff from UTLM and editing it to make it sound like your own work?

For example:

UTLM:

Tramper:

Yes. Indeed I did. I wanted to test the TBM-audience here. I wanted to see if anyone would dicover the borrowing and you did! Well I only did what Joseph Smith did. He borrowed from Ethan Smith, from the Bible etc. He slightly modified the text and made it sound like a unique work... I gotcha ... :-)

Having said that. Please reply to my message. For instance, why does the church portray a dysfunctional marriage as a raw model for a happy marriage? Don't use the FARMS technique ... shooting the messenger and avoid all discussion ...

[Calm]

Don't use the FARMS technique ... shooting the messenger and avoid all discussion ...

Talk about "shooting the messenger"....

[ELF1024]

Yes. Indeed I did. I wanted to test the TBM-audience here. I wanted to see if anyone would discover the borrowing and you did!

And having said that... we should attempt to take you seriously... why?

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot, saved us the trouble.

[Tramper]

Was it by order of the Nauvoo City Council that the press was destroyed, or by order of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

If Lilburn Boggs was a Christian leader as well as the Democratic party leader of the state. Should the Democratic party apologize or should the governor seat apologize for the miscarriage of justice?

Not such a stupid answer if you think about the organizations involved as well as the individuals.

CFR in the Nauvoo Charter or Charter for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in which Nauvoo City ordinances were binding for the church and its membership.

Much like the effective control of democrats in the territory?

Hmmm, in other words a child steals candy and is killed by the police when attempting to flee, the child deserved it since stealing candy led to the death of the child.

Martyrdom is for those who did not deserve death. The apostles could have very easily followed the presumed laws of the Roman land, or Jewish Council and they would have been spared, but because they did not follow the law, they were killed. We call them martyrs because we feel their deaths were undeserved, especially given the infraction (even though for them the law was indeed death for their actions, especially among the Jews). Did Joseph Smith deserve to die because he convinced the council to close down a newspaper?

If Joseph did not deserve to die for destroying the paper then we can safely say he was a martyr. If you think Joseph Smith deserved death for destroying the paper, then I would like to explore your reasoning more fully.

The destruction of the printing press was the sparkle the ignited the fire. The political ambitions, the breaking of Illinois law by practicing plural marriage, the threat from the Nauvoo Legion army (did Christ inspire the Nauvoo Legion?) etc. The list goes on, and on.

The driving force in the Nauvoo City Council was of course the Mormon leaders. They had the effectice control. Hyrum Smith and Taylor for instance. Shouldn't they be condemned for their participation in the fatal decision? It should be obvious to everyone that those two men acted under the inspiration from Lucifer. Don't you agree? If not why? Why did the printing press had to be destroyed? I find the first and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor well balanced and well in between the limits of a free press.

By critizing the action of Hyrum Smith the Mormon church would gain a lot of good will and respect. It is a matter of decensy.

It should be obvious to everyone that those two men acted under the inspiration from Lucifer.

MOD: Not in this forum. Satan and Hitler get the same reception here. If that is what you resort to you have already lost the debate and can leave the building.

[Tramper]

Talk about "shooting the messenger"....

If I copied, perhaps so did Joseph.

Let us hear insetad what you have to say about the dysfunctional marriage between Emma and Joseph instead ... Or the father in law Isaac Hale. Wouldn't you agree with him? He was an honorable man I would say... Or what about the similarities between the treasure location technique and the "translation" process. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

BTW Do you think that the church produced film about Joseph is well balanced and correct?

[Calm]

It should be obvious to everyone that those two men acted under the inspiration from Lucifer.

If you expect serious discussion from LDS participants, you should modify your approach. I see no hope in attempting indepth discussion with someone of so extreme assumptions.

[ELF1024]

By critizing the action of Hyrum Smith the Mormon church would gain a lot of good will and respect. It is a matter of decensy.

Two words... spell check...

Try Firefox it has a built in spell checker.

[Tramper]

If you expect serious discussion from LDS participants, you should modify your approach. I see no hope in attempting indepth discussion with someone of so extreme assumptions.

Well OK. What do you think of the actions of these leaders in this case? Was is good, was it bad, was it a good decision to destroy press, and if so why? We leave Lucifier out of the discussion. I respect that. Looking forward to hear from you.

[Tramper]

Two words... spell check...

Try Firefox it has a built in spell checker.

I am not American. Sorry. Please respond to my message instead. After all, the Book of Mormon contained a lot of error as well even though it was translated by the gift of God. Please show me mercy..

[Calm]

Well OK. What do you think of the actions of these leaders in this case? Was is good, was it bad, was it a good decision to destroy press, and if so why? We leave Lucifier out of the discussion. I respect that. Looking forward to hear from you.

I would suggest it would be better to start a new topic on this issue rather than attach it to this one. That will give you a chance to start over and see if you can garner any interest from others enough to gain some input.

[ELF1024]

I am not American. Sorry. Please respond to my message instead. After all, the Book of Mormon contained a lot of error as well even though it was translated by the gift of God. Please show me mercy..

I'll give you exactly the same amount as you give...

[Minos]

Automatic generated message

This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Time to move on

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff