Diferent Trinity View Points

[mfbukowski]

This is a better analysis than I gave.

Your turn next time!

[Ivan Komotios]

Sorry, that is not what the text says. It never equates celetial with flesh and bone and terrestrial as flesh and blood.

What the text does say is that there are 3 glories. One fo the sun one of the moon and one of the stars, and different stars differ in their glory. And currently I would say that our physical bodies right now do not posses any glory. Are our bodies in this current state glowing, like that of the moon, sun, or stars?

It is very important to note that those verses are specifally talking about the resurrection.

So there's 4 glories

[Ivan Komotios]

Sorry, that is not what the text says. It never equates celetial with flesh and bone and terrestrial as flesh and blood.

What the text does say is that there are 3 glories. One fo the sun one of the moon and one of the stars, and different stars differ in their glory. And currently I would say that our physical bodies right now do not posses any glory. Are our bodies in this current state glowing, like that of the moon, sun, or stars?

It is very important to note that those verses are specifally talking about the resurrection.

it is talking about the resurrection, not three degrees of glory or 4 degrees, Right now we have a terrestrail body or earthy body at the resurrection Christians will get a heavenly body or celestral body.

[Ivan Komotios]

look it up in dictonary subsistentia

Here's first hit on subsistentia, Notice how it explains three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE eternal God

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/trinity.html

[ChristKnight]

Here's first hit on subsistentia, Notice how it explains three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE eternal God

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/trinity.html

Subsistentia doesn't mean "substance", which is what we were talking about.

[ChristKnight]

Here's first hit on subsistentia, Notice how it explains three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE eternal God

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/trinity.html

Also, you said that the word "substance" means that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one family. When you were told that it doesn't mean that, you said to look up "subsistentia" in the dictionary. Your link doesn't address it, because substance doesn't mean "family", and "subsistentia" isn't where "substance" comes from. The Latin substantia is where substance comes from.

[Ivan Komotios]

Latin Word List » Possessio

Definition: Possession, property.

The Latin Word Possessio has many meanings, mainly: possession, property. To view more Latin Words that start with the letter P, please visit: Latin Words that begin with the letter P. Can't find what your looking for? Don't worry, we have thousands of other Latin Words for you to browse through. You are after all on the fastest growing Latin Word resource site on the internet!

Possessio shares similar meaning with and/or has multiple Latin Word interpretations for the following Latin Words: Qualitas and Substantia.

meaning the Father, son and holy spirit possess Godhood or there property is Godhood, remember one saying same family haven't found it yet sorry

[Peter John]

The essential confusion on this comes with perceiving the role and origin of scripture to begin with. The Nicene Creed did not emerge from understanding the Bible as a didactic representation of what we are to believe.

[Wendy]

I could use some help on the trinity (Niciean Creed) vs. LDS View.

I'm in a discussion about "the God head" with a Assembly of God minister, about the Godhead.

Personally, I think he's in denial. I given several OT and NT scriptures and gone into the Gospel Principles book.

Any other Ideas?

HELP PLEASE

As I reread the New Testament, I've begun to note in the margins which view of the Trinity is supported. Of course, both are; I knew that already. My study is not yet complete, and I likely am duplicating the work of others. However, the important point in your discussion, I believe, is not to convince the other person, but for each of you to concede that there is biblical evidence to support both views, that neither is a ridiculous stand to take.

[mfbukowski]

However, the important point in your discussion, I believe, is not to convince the other person, but for each of you to concede that there is biblical evidence to support both views, that neither is a ridiculous stand to take.

That would be the ideal, but is probably overly optimistic.

Many are here just to argue.

[Vance]

look it up in dictonary subsistentia

Look "substance" in an English dictionary, and then look up "family" in an English dictionary and compare the two.

[Ivan Komotios]

Seems to be plenty of Biblical reference of the Trinity in Bible

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that within the unity of the oneGodhead there are three separate persons who are coequal in power, nature, andeternity. This doctrine is derived from the clear teaching of Scripture, and isnot a man-made doctrine as some Cults try to say.Let us briefly examine some of the New Testament evidences for this importantdoctrine.

1. The Incarnation. The birth of the Lord Jesus Christ as described in theaccounts in Matthew and Luke show that the doctrine of the Trinity was not alater invention of theologians. Luke records what an angel said to Mary:"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High willovershadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God"(Luke 1:35).

Since other passages of Scripture reveal that the term "Most High"refers to God the Father, we have in Luke a concrete instance of the HolySpirit, the Father, and the Son all being mentioned together in thesupernatural event of the Incarnation.

2. The Baptism of Our Lord. When Jesus Christ was baptized, the heavens openedand the Holy Spirit "descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And avoice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am wellpleased'" (Luke 3:21-22). In these verses we see the Son being baptized,the Spirit descending upon Him, and the Father bearing testimony.

3. Discourses of Christ. In John 14--16 Christ speaks of the persons of theTrinity in His Upper Room Discourse. Jesus declared to the disciples, "AndI will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with youforever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neithersees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be inyou" (John 14:16-17). Our Lord here prays to the Father for the Spirit,and His emphasis on triunity is quite apparent. In John 14:26 and 15:26 Christuses the same formula, mentioning the three persons of the Deity and indicatingtheir unity, not only of purpose and will but of basic nature.

4. Paul's Letters. The apostle Paul definitely taught the triune nature of God.He wrote: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). Itwould have been difficult for Paul to give this benediction if the Father, Son,and Holy Spirit were not equal persons within the Godhead.

5. The Great Commission. In Matthew 28:18-20 the Lord Jesus commissions thedisciples to go out and preach the gospel and to make disciples of all nations.He commands them also to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of theSon, and of the Holy Spirit." Taken with the other passages bearing on thesubject, this becomes an extremely powerful argument for the Christian doctrineof the trinity.

6. Creation. Although the Bible does not explain to us how the three personsare the one God, it tells us most emphatically that the Spirit of God createdthe world (Gen. 1:2), the Father created the world (Heb. 1:2), and the Son createdthe world (Col. 1:16). If you check the creation references in the NewTestament, you will see that these particular references are bolstered byseveral others teaching the same things.

The apostle Paul declared in Acts 17:24, "the God who made the world andeverything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in templesbuilt by hands." This forces us to an irresistible conclusion. As creationhas been attributed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit singly andcollectively, they are the one God. There cannot be three gods. The Scripturedeclares: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I amGod, and there is no other" (Isa. 45:22). Hence there is unity in trinityand trinity in unity.

7. The Resurrection of Christ. A final instance of Trinitarian emphasis is thatof the resurrection of our Lord. In John 2 Christ declared to the Jews,"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days" (v.19). John hastens to tell us that Jesus was speaking of the resurrection of Hisearthly body (v. 21). Other Scriptures, however, state that Christ was raisedby the agency of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Rom. 8:11). And Peter explicitly statesthat the Father raised the Son (Acts 3:26). So, again, God's Word affirms the triunenature of God. We may not fully understand the great truth of the Trinity.However, we can see the rays of light which emanate from God's Word and whichteach us that, in a mysterious sense beyond the comprehension of man's finitemind, God is one in nature but three in person.

[Ivan Komotios]

Look "substance" in an English dictionary, and then look up "family" in an English dictionary and compare the two.

Do you have a Latin Dictionary where Substance is mentioned ?

[Nemesis]

Seems to be plenty of Biblical reference of the Trinity in Bible

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that within the unity of the oneGodhead there are three separate persons who are coequal in power, nature, andeternity. This doctrine is derived from the clear teaching of Scripture, and isnot a man-made doctrine as some Cults try to say.Let us briefly examine some of the New Testament evidences for this importantdoctrine.

1. The Incarnation. The birth of the Lord Jesus Christ as described in theaccounts in Matthew and Luke show that the doctrine of the Trinity was not alater invention of theologians. Luke records what an angel said to Mary:"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High willovershadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God"(Luke 1:35).

Since other passages of Scripture reveal that the term "Most High"refers to God the Father, we have in Luke a concrete instance of the HolySpirit, the Father, and the Son all being mentioned together in thesupernatural event of the Incarnation.

2. The Baptism of Our Lord. When Jesus Christ was baptized, the heavens openedand the Holy Spirit "descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And avoice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am wellpleased'" (Luke 3:21-22). In these verses we see the Son being baptized,the Spirit descending upon Him, and the Father bearing testimony.

3. Discourses of Christ. In John 14--16 Christ speaks of the persons of theTrinity in His Upper Room Discourse. Jesus declared to the disciples, "AndI will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with youforever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neithersees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be inyou" (John 14:16-17). Our Lord here prays to the Father for the Spirit,and His emphasis on triunity is quite apparent. In John 14:26 and 15:26 Christuses the same formula, mentioning the three persons of the Deity and indicatingtheir unity, not only of purpose and will but of basic nature.

4. Paul's Letters. The apostle Paul definitely taught the triune nature of God.He wrote: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). Itwould have been difficult for Paul to give this benediction if the Father, Son,and Holy Spirit were not equal persons within the Godhead.

5. The Great Commission. In Matthew 28:18-20 the Lord Jesus commissions thedisciples to go out and preach the gospel and to make disciples of all nations.He commands them also to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of theSon, and of the Holy Spirit." Taken with the other passages bearing on thesubject, this becomes an extremely powerful argument for the Christian doctrineof the trinity.

6. Creation. Although the Bible does not explain to us how the three personsare the one God, it tells us most emphatically that the Spirit of God createdthe world (Gen. 1:2), the Father created the world (Heb. 1:2), and the Son createdthe world (Col. 1:16). If you check the creation references in the NewTestament, you will see that these particular references are bolstered byseveral others teaching the same things.

The apostle Paul declared in Acts 17:24, "the God who made the world andeverything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in templesbuilt by hands." This forces us to an irresistible conclusion. As creationhas been attributed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit singly andcollectively, they are the one God. There cannot be three gods. The Scripturedeclares: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I amGod, and there is no other" (Isa. 45:22). Hence there is unity in trinityand trinity in unity.

7. The Resurrection of Christ. A final instance of Trinitarian emphasis is thatof the resurrection of our Lord. In John 2 Christ declared to the Jews,"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days" (v.19). John hastens to tell us that Jesus was speaking of the resurrection of Hisearthly body (v. 21). Other Scriptures, however, state that Christ was raisedby the agency of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Rom. 8:11). And Peter explicitly statesthat the Father raised the Son (Acts 3:26). So, again, God's Word affirms the triunenature of God. We may not fully understand the great truth of the Trinity.However, we can see the rays of light which emanate from God's Word and whichteach us that, in a mysterious sense beyond the comprehension of man's finitemind, God is one in nature but three in person.

Wow you didn't even bother to correct any of the spelling mistakes from where you stole this gem from, we don't allow not citing your sources on this board. Take a vacation and don't do it again.

Nemesis

[BCSpace]

There is not even a single reference for the trinity doctrine in the Bible; not even the Johannine Comma considering the lexical definitions of "one" and "in". And as we see from early Christian history, the trinity is a later development that came about as the doctrines changed. Apparently, not even Tertullian and Theophilus would have accepted the creedal trinity and their views are simply waypoints on the road to universal apostasy.

[Storm Rider]

thesometimesaint,

You wrote:

CFR, if you please.

Sure, but better yet, do you have a reference for the term Trinityin the Bible? Of course not because it does not exist. I think that was the intent of the statement.

[Hughes]

Sure, but better yet, do you have a reference for the term Trinityin the Bible? Of course not because it does not exist. I think that was the intent of the statement.

There are a lot of things not specifically stated in the Bible. That doesn't make those things, untrue, nor does it mean that the idea of the trinity isn't alluded to.

For the LDS position, what isn't in the Bible as well, is the idea that there's more than one God. If there's one thing the Bible can't be accused of, is teaching Polytheism.

[Vance]

For the LDS position, what isn't in the Bible as well, is the idea that there's more than one God. If there's one thing the Bible can't be accused of, is teaching Polytheism.

Which "Bible" are you reading?

Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

• • •

22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Dan. 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

• • •

21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Ps. 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.

Ps. 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

Ps. 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Dan. 3:26 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

[Rob Bowman]

saint,

You had written:

The Bible nowhere speaks of a Trinity. But it does speak of a Godhead. A Social Trinity if you will.

I had issued a CFR to you for the above statement. I've been busy, so I haven't pressed the matter, but a week later I see that you still have not replied to this CFR.

Someone else cited the biblical references that use the word "Godhead," but as I pointed out, in none of these texts does the word express the idea of a "Social Trinity" or refer to a group of separate gods. In fact, in all three instances the term simply means "Godhood," the state of being God, or the nature or essence of God. (The suffix -head is an antiquated form now generally replaced by -hood.)

I'd appreciate a response when you get a chance.

[Hughes]

Hughes, on 25 May 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

For the LDS position, what isn't in the Bible as well, is the idea that there's more than one God. If there's one thing the Bible can't be accused of, is teaching Polytheism.

Which "Bible" are you reading?

Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

• • •

22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Dan. 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

• • •

21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Ps. 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.

Ps. 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

Ps. 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Dan. 3:26 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Here's what Britannica says, "polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism characterizes virtually all religions other than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which share a common tradition of monotheism, the belief in one God."

You disagree with Britannica?

How about Polythesim.org? "Polytheists were called pagans by the early Christians. The Polytheists largely practiced tolerance of all beliefs, whereas the early Christians preached intolerance of polytheistic beliefs."

So do you disagree with what the early christians teach as well?

Of course that's ok. You are free to believe as you wish. If you honestly think the Bible promotes Polytheism, that's fine. I simply disagree. As does Britannica and Polythesism.org.

[mfbukowski]

Of course that's ok. You are free to believe as you wish. If you honestly think the Bible promotes Polytheism, that's fine. I simply disagree. As does Britannica and Polythesism.org.

It's good to know your sources for Biblical knowledge. After all, who needs the Bible by itself? Forget all the Biblical scholars who see polytheism in the Bible, what do they know?

Absurd.

[zerinus]

saint,

You had written:

I had issued a CFR to you for the above statement. I've been busy, so I haven't pressed the matter, but a week later I see that you still have not replied to this CFR.

Someone else cited the biblical references that use the word "Godhead," but as I pointed out, in none of these texts does the word express the idea of a "Social Trinity" or refer to a group of separate gods. In fact, in all three instances the term simply means "Godhood," the state of being God, or the nature or essence of God. (The suffix -head is an antiquated form now generally replaced by -hood.)

I'd appreciate a response when you get a chance.

The Bible speaks of the Three Divine Beings—The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; but nowhere teaches the “Trinitarian theology” of modern Christendom.

[Vance]

Here's what Britannica says, "polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism characterizes virtually all religions other than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which share a common tradition of monotheism, the belief in one God."

You disagree with Britannica?

How about Polythesim.org? "Polytheists were called pagans by the early Christians. The Polytheists largely practiced tolerance of all beliefs, whereas the early Christians preached intolerance of polytheistic beliefs."

So do you disagree with what the early christians teach as well?

Of course that's ok. You are free to believe as you wish. If you honestly think the Bible promotes Polytheism, that's fine. I simply disagree. As does Britannica and Polythesism.org.

So, when I show you that you are in error about what the Bible teaches you respond with non-Biblical sources?

Well, if that is the best you've got.

[LeSellers]

So, when I show you that you are in error about what the Bible teaches you respond with non-Biblical sources?

Well, if that is the best you've got.

Doubtless, he'll next try to use the Shema. Talk about a misapplicaton of scripture, or at least a misunderstanding.

Lehi

[Vance]

saint,

You had written:

I had issued a CFR to you for the above statement. I've been busy, so I haven't pressed the matter, but a week later I see that you still have not replied to this CFR.

Someone else cited the biblical references that use the word "Godhead," but as I pointed out, in none of these texts does the word express the idea of a "Social Trinity" or refer to a group of separate gods. In fact, in all three instances the term simply means "Godhood," the state of being God, or the nature or essence of God. (The suffix -head is an antiquated form now generally replaced by -hood.)

I'd appreciate a response when you get a chance.

Not that I am disagreeing with you here, let's look at the implications.

Col 2:9 For in him (from the context, him = Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the GodheadGodhood bodily.

Clearly if God is only one being, then this statement is just gibberish. Why would Paul need to point out that the one and only God had "the fulness of Godhood bodily"?