Trouble In Milan

[saemo]

So what you are saying is if an Angel commanded you to violate the customs and mores of your society, he could not be from God? What about the times God's prophets were commanded to lay waste and destroy entire nations? Furthermore, we have been given no reason to believe that the Prophet's behavior had anything to do with lust except projection from some already inclined to criticism.

No, I'm saying Jesus taught that marriage is between one man and one woman and any marriage outside of that is adultery. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

As such, God has created me with reason and scripture advices that I test the siprits. Reason tells me, God isn't going to send an angel of light to command anyone to adultery.

Edited May 17, 2011 by saemo

[thesometimesaint]

saemo:

This self same God of Abraham instructed the Children of Israel to utterly destroy every living creature(including every man, woman, and child), when they invaded the Promised Land.

This self same God of Israel GAVE David the WIVES of Saul.

Your selective bias is showing.

[saemo]

saemo:

This self same God of Abraham instructed the Children of Israel to utterly destroy every living creature(including every man, woman, and child), when they invaded the Promised Land.

This self same God of Israel GAVE David the WIVES of Saul.

Your selective bias is showing.

You lack of understanding of scripture is showing. But I believe this conversation has been done before.

Mormons will always defend the adultery of Joseph Smith in any way they can, is the final outcome of it every time.

I can only pray the enlightened people of Milan will be led to truth, with good chances they will be, as the people of Milan have never been known to take "all is well" for an answer to anything.

Edited May 17, 2011 by saemo

[bookofmormontruth]

I said: "In fact, Joseph Smith used coercion upon many of the young, impressionable women that he "married" secretly."

Read Todd M. Compton's book, In Sacred Loneliness. It's all in there. And yes, coercion is what Joseph used: his position as prophet and leader was used to spook the girls into marriage. If they didn't marry him then they were casting themselves "out" of God's favor. His use of the angel commanding him with a drawn sword to enter into "the practice" of patriarchal marriage, i.e. threatening him with destruction if he did not obey, he used more than once on impressionable young women: if they did not "help" him obey by marrying him, he would be destroyed. When they balked he even prophesied cursings instead of blessings upon their futures if they did not obey his/God's command to marry him. That is genuine intimidation....

Wow!

Sounds like you were a "fly on the wall" to be so intimately familiar with the life of Joseph Smith and his motivations and intentions. Must be nice to have the privy information that no one else on Earth has, except the Lord.

[thesometimesaint]

saemo:

I'll stack my understanding of the Scriptures against yours any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It was no more adultery than Abraham's. Polygamy is all through the Bible.

[bookofmormontruth]

You lack of understanding of scripture is showing. But I believe this conversation has been done before.

Mormons will always defend the adultery of Joseph Smith in any way they can, is the final outcome of it every time.

I can only pray the enlightened people of Milan will be led to truth, with good chances they will be, as the people of Milan have never been known to take "all is well" for an answer to anything.

No, your blatant double standards are showing.

Where is your "adulterous" accusations of the known polygamous Prophets in the Old Testament?

[Nathair/|\]

No, I'm saying Jesus taught that marriage is between one man and one woman and any marriage outside of that is adultery.

CFR

I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

Except Joseph Smith got his teachings from Jesus Christ. That's the whole point. Joseph is just the messenger and witness.

As such, God has created me with reason and scripture advices that I test the siprits.

Reason is vital, but it must be based on correct premises.

Reason tells me, God isn't going to send an angel of light to command anyone to adultery.

Probably not, but he might command something that looks like adultery to mortal, custom-bound eyes.

[cinepro]

I am in a position to assist the Institute teacher in Milan by providing some information. I realize that there are resources on FAIR, etc. But what I am asking is if there are some good materials available in Italian that might help in this situation?

Paddy, any discussion on the issue is going to have to start from one basic point:

If these YSA are unwilling to belong to a Church whose founding leader proposed to married women while their husbands were away on missions, then they are in the wrong Church.

Once you understand that, then you can start to work on helping them to be willing to belong to such a Church. It may require an inordinate amount of faith in Joseph's prophetic calling and the unusual ways in which God works. Or, it may require a reduction in faith regarding Joseph's practice of polygamy and a belief that he wasn't acting as a prophet in these specific instances.

I've seen LDS who have successfully maintained their faith in the Church using either tack. So you'll have to be open to either possibility and go with your gut on which will most likely be successful with these YSA.

But whatever you do, don't let them read about Sarah Pratt or Nancy Rigdon!

And now that I think about it, I wouldn't let them read "Mormon Enigma" either. And I don't know how D&C 132 reads in Italian, but if it's anything like the English version, I would leave it out of the discussion as well.

Just focus on "Fair" articles and apologetics and keep your fingers crossed.

Edited May 17, 2011 by cinepro

[Jaybear]

No, your blatant double standards are showing.

Where is your "adulterous" accusations of the known polygamous Prophets in the Old Testament?

The concern expressed in Milan was regarding Smith's marriages to women who were already married, and their husbands sent on missions for the Church. The biblical analogy would be David's relationship with Bathshiba. My impression was the moral lesson of that story was that you should stay away from women who are married.

[bookofmormontruth]

The concern expressed in Milan was regarding Smith's marriages to women who were already married, and their husbands sent on missions for the Church. The biblical analogy would be David's relationship with Bathshiba. My impression was the moral lesson of that story was that you should stay away from women who are married.

If you are so "concerned" about the OP then let's not be hypocritical and direct this reply to saemo since my reply was to him/her and not the OP.

[cdowis]

You lack of understanding of scripture is showing. But I believe this conversation has been done before.

Mormons will always defend the adultery of Joseph Smith in any way they can, is the final outcome of it every time.

I can only pray the enlightened people of Milan will be led to truth, with good chances they will be, as the people of Milan have never been known to take "all is well" for an answer to anything.

We have shown remarkable patience with your comments, considering the history of your own religion. I find your comments astonishing, when there is so much that we can discuss on the history of the orthodox church.

But the rules of this forum preclude such a discussion, but give it some thought the next time you make such unwise comments. Do you really propose that these youth leave the LDS church to join the Catholic church? We can certainly do some comparisons.

Anyway, it is clear that you know little about the history of your own church. May I suggest that you spend some time checking out the internet on your church before tossing stones at the LDS church.

Edited May 17, 2011 by cdowis

[Stargazer]

No, I'm saying Jesus taught that marriage is between one man and one woman and any marriage outside of that is adultery. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

As such, God has created me with reason and scripture advices that I test the siprits. Reason tells me, God isn't going to send an angel of light to command anyone to adultery.

Well, I, for one, would be interested to find where Jesus taught this.

Actually, in regard to this subject, at least, you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ so much as you are following the teachings of the ancient Greeks and Romans, who found polygamy as practiced by a large number of societies, including the Hebrews and their related peoples, and as chronicled in the Bible, to be disgusting.

[Walden]

Walden:

I don't know how much more the Church can be open about polygamy. JS practiced it secretly(as in not open to public knowledge). Brigham Young started the practice being open to the public knowledge after they left the US. Its practice have been done and over with for over a hundred years in the Church.

If you think that the church is truly open about Joseph Smith's polygamy, then why do we continue to hear over and over and over about how this little nugget of history has become a stumbling block for people's testimonies. If the church was truly open about it, then why does it cause such a shock and why is it such a common refrain among those doubting the church.

Yes, the church is very open regarding Brigham Young's polygamy....they are far from the same regarding Smith's polygamy. Just because Smith practiced it secretly doesn't mean that it must be mentioned only in whispers (figuratively). Be as open about it as the polygamy practiced by BY and I would bet that it would be much less of a shock to the system. At this point, it only seems to add to a person's drive to discover what else it is that they thought they knew about the prophet but were actually never taught/told....and we all know where this can often lead.

[bookofmormontruth]

If you think that the church is truly open about Joseph Smith's polygamy, then why do we continue to hear over and over and over about how this little nugget of history has become a stumbling block for people's testimonies. If the church was truly open about it, then why does it cause such a shock and why is it such a common refrain among those doubting the church.

Yes, the church is very open regarding Brigham Young's polygamy....they are far from the same regarding Smith's polygamy. Just because Smith practiced it secretly doesn't mean that it must be mentioned only in whispers (figuratively). Be as open about it as the polygamy practiced by BY and I would bet that it would be much less of a shock to the system. At this point, it only seems to add to a person's drive to discover what else it is that they thought they knew about the prophet but were actually never taught/told....and we all know where this can often lead.

Really depends on the person.

When I first heard it, I took the approach of faith, not doubt. I didn't understand it, but my lack of understanding didn't make Joseph any less than a Prophet or G-d's way "unjust". It is a reflection on us in how we approach it.

Instead of continually seeding doubts by immersing yourself with anti-Mormon regurgitation, immerse yourself in the Book of Mormon. Then you will have a different understanding and appreciation for those things we don't truly understand.

In addition, anti-Mormons, critics, "doubters" etc.. like to have it both ways. For example: they claim that Joseph Smith was murdered for polygamy, yet in almost the same sentence will claim that his polygamy was held "secret" from the world. I understand the confusion, but I don't understand how someone can make such broad generalizations without all the necessary facts.

There is no shame for stating or believing - that we don't have a full understanding of everything and be content in leaving it in the hands of the Lord.

[cinepro]

Walden:

I don't know how much more the Church can be open about polygamy.

or

Couldn't make up my mind...

[Brian 2.0]

Paddy, any discussion on the issue is going to have to start from one basic point:

If these YSA are unwilling to belong to a Church whose founding leader proposed to married women while their husbands were away on missions, then they are in the wrong Church.

Once you understand that, then you can start to work on helping them to be willing to belong to such a Church. It may require an inordinate amount of faith in Joseph's prophetic calling and the unusual ways in which God works. Or, it may require a reduction in faith regarding Joseph's practice of polygamy and a belief that he wasn't acting as a prophet in these specific instances.

Well said. Those two ways of thinking about it are the only two ways I can seem to find as well.

[LeSellers]

Did you try "Plural Marriage"?

Lehi

Edited May 17, 2011 by LeSellers

[Calm]

Well said. Those two ways of thinking about it are the only two ways I can seem to find as well.

I think a third/fourth way would be a change in how one perceives the polygyny/polyandry in general as well in that particular context, iow a paradigm shift on polyandry or a change of understanding on what sealings meant to Joseph and what he was trying to accomplish by them and why he chose to do things the way he did.

Edited May 17, 2011 by calmoriah

[MosesStone1980]

Did you try "Plural Marriage"?

Lehi

Probably not; however, I did.

Polygamy (Plural Marriage)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.

Additional Information

The Bible indicates that Abraham, Jacob, and others of the Lord’s servants had multiple wives (see Genesis 16:1–3; 29:23–30; 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2). Joseph Smith asked God why He had permitted this practice and was told that God had commanded it for specific purposes. One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife]” (Jacob 2:30; see also v. 27).

After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.

When the Saints moved west under the direction of Brigham Young, more Latter-day Saints entered into plural marriages.

Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding."

The bolded portions are mine.

Edited May 17, 2011 by MosesStone1980

[bookofmormontruth]

Double

Edited May 17, 2011 by bookofmormontruth

[bookofmormontruth]

or

Couldn't make up my mind...

What an awful Church you belong to. How do you bear staying in as a "professed member"?

[Anijen]

LDS.org gave me 81 results on the first try.

[Calm]

LDS.org gave me 81 results on the first try.

According to google, there are 427 instances of "polygamy" on the lds.org site (many of them will, of course, be duplicates):

http://www.google.co...lient=firefox-a

There are 38 results for the site josephsmith.net

The search engine on lds.org and other church sites is not very good in my experience, rather finicky, always use google myself.

Edited May 17, 2011 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

LDS.org gave me 81 results on the first try.

Yes, but he was looking specifically at josephsmith.net

[Calm]

I am happy for this tread to debate the issue of church history and its affect in a multi language setting but my first priority is to help the Milan YSA. If the brains trust out there can help it would be appreciated.

Thanks

Paddy

I have sent you an email with a suggestion on someone to contact who should be most helpful. If not enough, please feel free to contact FAIR for more help.

Cal