The True Gospel

[inquiringmind]

Please forgive the double post, but I posted a reply when I meant to edit (and now I can't seem to delete it, so all I can do is edit this post.)

I've thought about Galatians, but the LDS don't really keep the Jewish Law.

They don't keep kosher, they don't practice circumcision, they don't keep the seventh day Sabbath, and they don't keep the feast days.

If you have access to the Greek text of the passages you quote from Galatians, I'd be interested in whether Paul used the definite article?

Is he talking about "the" (Jewish) Law, or is he talking about "Law' (as in any external, written law.)

As for James, he did say that "faith without works is dead," but he also went on to say "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (which could indicate that he, like Paul, viewed works of righteousness as the fruit of a living faith.)

That would tie in with what you seem to be saying, but as to whether the LDS really preach "another Gospel" (in the sense Paul warns in Galatians), I think the question of whether he uses the definite article relevant here.

Thank you.

[Kingsson]

I think that most of Christianity is confused about this very subject. We have a core Gospel which says that Jesus is the Son of God the Father. That He came in the flesh, died for our sins and was resurrected after three days. He sits at the right hand of God the Father and will judge the living and the dead. Then there are the Words spoken by Jesus and the commandments. Here there are problems between people as to what the true message was. Then we have doctrine which even more disagreement occurs. The Gospel message is the plan of salvation, it is the good news for us. Because of the confusion of man in reading His message He saw fit to add a more clear set of scriptures for us to read. He also established a living prophet so the message would not drift.

[1]The people in the Bible and many after that, way before the LDS started had no problem undestanding the Bible As Holy Ghost Preachers and Teachers spoke it. SO YOU ARE WRNG ON THAT POINT.

[2]God didn't need to establish a living prophet, He already had His Prophets in the TRUE CHURCH Eph 3, says the power is in the Church throught all ages, world without end, We have always been in the "ALL AGES", And the world hasn't ended yet, The Paul goes on with His teachings and says Jesus gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastor and Teachers. And God said they'll be in the Church throughout ALL AGES.

If you study the TRUE CHURCH history, You see that there has always been Christians, Prophets and so on, Doing miracles Healings, casting out devil and doing the same works that Jesus did. SO YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT POINT AS WELL... You're not doin very well today ARE YOU.

[Nathair/|\]

[1]The people in the Bible and many after that, way before the LDS started had no problem undestanding the Bible As Holy Ghost Preachers and Teachers spoke it. SO YOU ARE WRNG ON THAT POINT.

[2]God didn't need to establish a living prophet, He already had His Prophets in the TRUE CHURCH Eph 3, says the power is in the Church throught all ages, world without end, We have always been in the "ALL AGES", And the world hasn't ended yet, The Paul goes on with His teachings and says Jesus gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastor and Teachers. And God said they'll be in the Church throughout ALL AGES.

If you study the TRUE CHURCH history, You see that there has always been Christians, Prophets and so on, Doing miracles Healings, casting out devil and doing the same works that Jesus did. SO YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT POINT AS WELL... You're not doin very well today ARE YOU.

Why are there so many Christian churches, each teaching their own way?

[Kingsson]

The Good News of Gospel of Jesus Christ is summed up in the following:

Paul defines the basic Gospel in the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 15. It answers the question first posed in Job 14:14: "If a man die, shall he live again?" And that answer is "Yes!"

We Saints know that the deaths of which Job spoke (perhaps unknowingly of the second) are physical death (which Paul tells Christ overcame for every person ever born) which came about as a result of the transgression of Adam in the Gardeen of Eden, and spiritual death which comes about through our own acts, and which death will be overcome solely based on our demonstrated faith in Jesus Christ. This demonstration takes the form of obedience to His commandments, from the "First Ten" through the Word of Wisdom and tithing and all the others He has given us.

Lehi

Spiritual Death doesn't come through our acts, Everyone is born with a sinful nature, But to remain in sin and Spiritual death is up to us,

Once we have heard the gospel message it is up to us to do somthing about it. Either receive it and get born again or reject it and stay spiritualy dead.

[Kingsson]

It is a contradiction only when one fails to account for the myriad of verses in the Bible that say this very thing. You know, "Faith without works is dead." And this one, "Men will be judged by their works." That sort of thing.

Lehi

Stop twisting the Bible, When James says, "Faith without works is dead", He isn't talking about salvation, PLEASE KEEP THE BIBLE IN IT'S RIGHT CONTEXT.

To say faith needs works for salvation in this context, Is saysing "Clothing , feeding and protecting people" gives you salvation.

Also note, Abraham was already a man of God before he did his works.

So keep the Bible in it's right context.

[LeSellers]

Spiritual Death doesn't come through our acts, Everyone is born with a sinful nature,

Since everyone sins, that's a distinction without a difference. The only ones who do not sin are the very young and the mentally incompetent. And that's because they are incapable of sin, even though they may do some evil things.

But to remain in sin and Spiritual death is up to us,

Once we have heard the gospel message it is up to us to do somthing about it. Either receive it and get born again or reject it and stay spiritualy dead.

Indeed. So, when are you going to be baptized? I'll make myself available whenever you choose.

Lehi

[Kingsson]

The "true Gospel" is those doctrines that show us how to take advantage of the Good News of Jesus Christ and his Atonement. Included (but not limited to) are the Biblical doctrines that good works, water baptism, marriage, and even being good with money are all requirements for salvation.

You mean "Are all reqirements AFTER SALVATION", Not before.

[Nathair/|\]

You mean "Are all reqirements AFTER SALVATION", Not before.

CFR

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

I always hear LDS talking about having the true gospel and the full gospel. what then is the gospel? please explain.

As a sinner or former sinner, we deserve to be punished for our sins, and with no power to make ourselves clean and must be damned from the presence of God. Christ answered the demands of justice and has given us mercy if we follow Him. While salvation alone is of a supreme importance, it is not all there is.

While God does not render Salvation according to our deeds, He is accounting and rendering REWARDS according to our deeds. All mankind will be "judged... according to their works." (Rev. 20:12) Paul writes to the Corinthians. He clearly tells them that their Salvation is built on Christ, but in addition to this, each of us, also builds on this foundation in such a way that results in our reward in Heaven. Paul wrote that in the judgment a person's works might be added to his reward or burned up, but either way he might still be saved: "If any man's work abide which he hath built [upon the foundation of Jesus Christ], he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Paul also indicated that he had seen a vision of "the third heaven." (2 Cor. 12:2) Therefore, one might logically conclude from these passages that recipients of salvation will be allotted varying rewards within at least three different "heavens" or "degrees of glory." Now Paul's mentioning of the glory of the Sun, Moon, and Stars which are being used as types of 3 degrees of glory. Paul's describes the glory of resurrected "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:40-42) This passage is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected.

Ancient Hebrew thought concerned a multi-layered heaven with layers that were called the "Firmament" or Shamayim (Heavens or Skies), also known as Jacob's ladder, via the old Testament prophet Jacob and his dream, that we ascend up a ladder. Also well known from the 2 Enoch, a book that was held in high regard in the early Church, and many copies were found amongst the dead sea scrolls. In there, Enoch is taken on a tour of the multi-tiered heavens. Which makes Paul's vision of the third heaven all too clear. a multi-tiered heaven, personalized for each according to his deeds just as the Savior had taught (Matthew 16:27). The early Church understood that the Savior's three degrees of 'fruitfulness' (Matthew 13:8] that the 'seed of the Kingdom' (i.e. the saved) would bring forth fruit "some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold", which corresponds to the Pauline three 'heavens' or 'glories' (1 Corinthians 15:41) which is to be had in the resurrection of the dead.

Some of us are "justified" through faith in Christ and by his grace we are given mercy that doesn't require any works. Then there are some of us that are also "sanctified" through works of repentance and other good works, by which we attempt to make amends for sins previously committed and to try to avoid them in the future and they become holy people or "saints". Then some of us are "exalted" because they overcame the world and kept the faith to the end. Those who keep the commandments, such as keeping the holy days holy, keeping the tithe, marriage, and endured in their attempt to stay true to these principles to the end can expect all these things to be accounted for something (as opposed to nothing). Not for salvation, as all of these groups of people I mentioned are all saved people. Doing good, keeping the faith all your life, following the commandments, even getting married, is not waste of time.

"In my Father's house there are many mansions. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2)

[saint gato]

Lots of false doctrine being preached here. the simple fact is that the Bible teaches salvation apart from works. you Mormons preach the same gospel as the judaizers who Paul addressed in Galatians. It was a gospel that had a combination of works+grace. I know that none of you think that salvation is by obedience thru the law alone, but it is just as heretical to preach salvation by grace +WORKS. its by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. no works. works follow if the faith is real.

And by the way, it says work OUT your salvation, not work FOR you salvation. the implication is that the person already possesses salvation. It is part of the process of sanctification where the believer is sanctified in their christian walk.

And also. Romans 4 has everything to do with this. you see that Abraham was justified (declared righteous) not by works. even before works. so salvation is not a combination of works and grace. works are only a fruit. salvation is the cause and works is the effect. why do you think that Paul says in Romans 4:5 "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

I know where you guys are going to go. you will name a bunch of scriptures that talk about persevering, but that does not have to do with maintaining salvation. It is a call to the elect to persevere. true faith given by God is also made evident by perseverance. perseverance is also a fruit of the Holy Spirit. thats why Jude says "To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—"

You see, It is Gods Job to uphold the believer in his walk. Those who truly receive the Holy Spirit will be brought to the end. Paul said it best in Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. you see, those whom God has foreknown will be justified and then glorified guaranteed. perseverance is the mark of true believers.

True believers will make it to the end, and are promised before hand ultimate salvation (to be with God) by the very presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

from begining to end, salvation is a work of God, not man. it is not by a combination grace and works. it is by faith alone. and James would agree.

[Nathair/|\]

Lots of false doctrine being preached here. the simple fact is that the Bible teaches salvation apart from works. you Mormons preach the same gospel as the judaizers who Paul addressed in Galatians. It was a gospel that had a combination of works+grace. I know that none of you think that salvation is by obedience thru the law alone, but it is just as heretical to preach salvation by grace +WORKS. its by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. no works. works follow if the faith is real.

And by the way, it says work OUT your salvation, not work FOR you salvation. the implication is that the person already possesses salvation. It is part of the process of sanctification where the believer is sanctified in their christian walk.

And also. Romans 4 has everything to do with this. you see that Abraham was justified (declared righteous) not by works. even before works. so salvation is not a combination of works and grace. works are only a fruit. salvation is the cause and works is the effect. why do you think that Paul says in Romans 4:5 "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

I know where you guys are going to go. you will name a bunch of scriptures that talk about persevering, but that does not have to do with maintaining salvation. It is a call to the elect to persevere. true faith given by God is also made evident by perseverance. perseverance is also a fruit of the Holy Spirit. thats why Jude says "To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—"

You see, It is Gods Job to uphold the believer in his walk. Those who truly receive the Holy Spirit will be brought to the end. Paul said it best in Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. you see, those whom God has foreknown will be justified and then glorified guaranteed. perseverance is the mark of true believers.

True believers will make it to the end, and are promised before hand ultimate salvation (to be with God) by the very presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

from begining to end, salvation is a work of God, not man. it is not by a combination grace and works. it is by faith alone. and James would agree.

Um...did you see the words of Jesus Christ I quoted in post 21?

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Lots of false doctrine being preached here. the simple fact is that the Bible teaches salvation apart from works. you Mormons preach the same gospel as the judaizers who Paul addressed in Galatians. It was a gospel that had a combination of works+grace. I know that none of you think that salvation is by obedience thru the law alone, but it is just as heretical to preach salvation by grace +WORKS. its by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. no works. works follow if the faith is real.

Just a bad case of inter-religious semantics over the concept of "salvation", as their argument is being made over various degrees of salvation. I believe I addressed you on your own terms.

[3DOP]

Galations 3

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Nevermind...

[ERMD]

:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

[mfbukowski]

Romanas 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6

I think you need a bigger crayon.

Maybe red would be nice.

[mledbetter]

semantics...

Yes, we believe that it is through the grace of Christ that we are saved. That through the changing of the inner man and our becoming one with Christ, becoming a new creature in Christ that we obtain salvation.

We just believe that the process of becoming a changed/saved creature takes a bit more work than what you are describing.

For a better understanding of our beliefs in this process, start here:

King Benjamin Speech

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

...

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

If this change occurs within you, then the following things will become a part of your very nature:

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

So, as you can see, yes we believe that through the grace of Christ we can become more like Him and eventually perfected and saved as stated here.

Moroni 10:32

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

[Kingsson]

Why are there so many Christian churches, each teaching their own way?

Most of those so-called Christian Church aren't Christians at all, They are just man made religions with man made doctrines

As for the true Christian Churches, They have different revelations depending on how open their Minister is to the Revelation of God's word, And if he is willing to change his beliefs to agree with God's word.

Some Christian Churches believe in salvation, But not the baptism in the Holy Ghost or healing, That is because they have been tought wrong and their Ministers haven't got the revalation of these things.

As for the individuel Christian, They are at different stages of Spiritual growth and some aren't spiritually mature enough to receive any revelations.

There are some Christians who believe what they want thet want to even when truth has been shown them, But that is between then and God.

What some Christians believe doesn't change the fact that Bible is true.

[LeSellers]

What some Christians believe doesn't change the fact that Bible is true.

And you seem to think that we Saints don't accept that.

Please disabuse yourself of this mistake: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as it was written by the men whom God called to write it.

Lehi

[Kingsson]

Since everyone sins, that's a distinction without a difference. The only ones who do not sin are the very young and the mentally incompetent. And that's because they are incapable of sin, even though they may do some evil things.

Indeed. So, when are you going to be baptized? I'll make myself available whenever you choose.

Lehi

[1]Doing evil things is sin.

[2] What is so important about baptism?? And which of the three Biblilcal baptisms do you mesn??

[Vance]

Lots of false doctrine being preached here.

Well, if you don't like it, you could stop doing it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, if you don't like it, you could stop doing it.

Zing! That was good.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[1]Doing evil things is sin.

Who has disupted this?

[2] What is so important about baptism??

Apparently it was so unimportant that the Savior did it.

And which of the three Biblilcal baptisms do you mesn??

All of them including baptisms for the dead.

[Franktalk]

[1]The people in the Bible and many after that, way before the LDS started had no problem undestanding the Bible As Holy Ghost Preachers and Teachers spoke it. SO YOU ARE WRNG ON THAT POINT.

[2]God didn't need to establish a living prophet, He already had His Prophets in the TRUE CHURCH Eph 3, says the power is in the Church throught all ages, world without end, We have always been in the "ALL AGES", And the world hasn't ended yet, The Paul goes on with His teachings and says Jesus gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastor and Teachers. And God said they'll be in the Church throughout ALL AGES.

If you study the TRUE CHURCH history, You see that there has always been Christians, Prophets and so on, Doing miracles Healings, casting out devil and doing the same works that Jesus did. SO YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT POINT AS WELL... You're not doin very well today ARE YOU.

I love it when someone says "the TRUE CHURCH history" because it means they already accept that there are many views and beliefs out there. Yet you quickly say "SO YOU ARE WRONG" Just what view am I wrong about? Are there any views which match my view but you reject? If so then how can I be wrong? I will tell you that when I read the Book of Mormon I already held to the many beliefs. It was the way I had already interpreted the Bible. So to me it is nothing new. It truly is just restored but not restored to me.

[LeSellers]

Doing evil things is sin.

No, sin is doing evil things when you know they are evil. Sin is rebellion, and one csannot rebel lunless he is a citizne.

What is so important about baptism?? And which of the three Biblilcal baptisms do you mesn??

It is, as Peter informs us, the means by which we answer a clear conscience toward God. He said, "[water] baptism doth now also save us". (Of course, he said it in Aramaic, and Mark wrote it down in Greek.) Jesus said it was impossible to enter the kingdom except by baptism, and John the Baptist told us that baptism remits our sins. I'd say that was significant.

You need both of them, of course, but it starts with the baptism of water, symbolizing the death and burial and resurrection of Christ and our own rebirth.

Lehi

[Nathair/|\]

No, sin is doing evil things when you know they are evil. Sin is rebellion, and one csannot rebel lunless he is a citizne.

It is, as Peter informs us, the means by which we answer a clear conscience toward God. He said, "[water] baptism doth now also save us". (Of course, he said it in Aramaic, and Mark wrote it down in Greek.) Jesus said it was impossible to enter the kingdom except by baptism, and John the Baptist told us that baptism remits our sins. I'd say that was significant.

You need both of them, of course, but it starts with the baptism of water, symbolizing the death and burial and resurrection of Christ and our own rebirth.

Lehi

Lehi, How is your hand?