The True Gospel

[saint gato]

I always hear LDS talking about having the true gospel and the full gospel. what then is the gospel? please explain.

[saint gato]

???

[Franktalk]

I think that most of Christianity is confused about this very subject. We have a core Gospel which says that Jesus is the Son of God the Father. That He came in the flesh, died for our sins and was resurrected after three days. He sits at the right hand of God the Father and will judge the living and the dead. Then there are the Words spoken by Jesus and the commandments. Here there are problems between people as to what the true message was. Then we have doctrine which even more disagreement occurs. The Gospel message is the plan of salvation, it is the good news for us. Because of the confusion of man in reading His message He saw fit to add a more clear set of scriptures for us to read. He also established a living prophet so the message would not drift.

[LeSellers]

I always hear LDS talking about having the true gospel and the full gospel. what then is the gospel? please explain.

The Good News of Gospel of Jesus Christ is summed up in the following:

For behold this is my [God's] work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortatlity and eternal life of man.

Paul defines the basic Gospel in the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 15. It answers the question first posed in Job 14:14: "If a man die, shall he live again?" And that answer is "Yes!"

We Saints know that the deaths of which Job spoke (perhaps unknowingly of the second) are physical death (which Paul tells Christ overcame for every person ever born) which came about as a result of the transgression of Adam in the Gardeen of Eden, and spiritual death which comes about through our own acts, and which death will be overcome solely based on our demonstrated faith in Jesus Christ. This demonstration takes the form of obedience to His commandments, from the "First Ten" through the Word of Wisdom and tithing and all the others He has given us.

Lehi

[saint gato]

A demonstration of faith? its one thing to say that your message adds on the the Bible message. but if you say that "demonstrating" faith fist by the fist ten-word of wisdom, then you are already contradicting the earlier revelation in the Bible. How can two contradictory doctrines both be true at the same time? its not addition, its contradiction.

[saint gato]

Galations 2

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[LeSellers]

A demonstration of faith? its one thing to say that your message adds on the the Bible message. but if you say that "demonstrating" faith fist by the fist ten-word of wisdom, then you are already contradicting the earlier revelation in the Bible. How can two contradictory doctrines both be true at the same time? its not addition, its contradiction.

It is a contradiction only when one fails to account for the myriad of verses in the Bible that say this very thing. You know, "Faith without works is dead." And this one, "Men will be judged by their works." That sort of thing.

Lehi

[saint gato]

Romans 4

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

As you can see, Abraham was justified before he received the sign of cercumcision.

[Mars]

Saint Gato,

Why don't you start a thread about a particular part of the "LDS Gospel" and provide reasons, examples, and commentary on why you perceive it to be incorrect.

Here's an example:

"Dear LDS,

It appears you believe <thing>. I read this from <legitimate source>. If that's correct, I believe it contradicts <this stuff>. Here is why <reason 1, reason 2, reason 3>."

I'm sure that would merit its own response.

[saint gato]

It is a contradiction only when one fails to account for the myriad of verses in the Bible that say this very thing. You know, "Faith without works is dead." And this one, "Men will be judged by their works." That sort of thing.

Lehi

No there is not a myriad of scriptures that say that. it is only in James. and if you want to go to what James was really saying, then we can. but I promise you this. James is not talking about obeying the law for justification. He is talking about the one who ARE saved will bare fruit. if you do not bare fruit then it is possible you were never saved. James is in line with what Jesus and Paul taught, that Salvation leads to good works. good works does not lead to salvation

so how do you deal with the other scriptures I put up from galations 2 and romans 4?

[saint gato]

Romanas 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6

[Mars]

Also, Saint Gato, will you please tone down the font size of your signature? It's very distracting. If it helps, I'll consider myself warned and read Hebrews 10 tonight in a Bible translation of your own choosing.

[saint gato]

Galations 3

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

[J Green]

He is talking about the one who ARE saved will bare fruit. if you do not bare fruit then it is possible you were never saved.

I think that bare fruit is immodest. I prefer my food properly clad.

[saint gato]

I will consider toning it down. but not right now.

So if James is in fact (as you would say) giving us a mandate to achieve righteousness by law keeping, then how do we reconcile his teachings with what Paul has been saying in the above scriptures?

[urroner]

I will consider toning it down. but not right now.

So if James is in fact (as you would say) giving us a mandate to achieve righteousness by law keeping, then how do we reconcile his teachings with what Paul has been saying in the above scriptures?

So James and Paul contradict each other in the Bible. Interesting. But, then again, didn't Paul say something about "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;"

It seems that Paul was agreeing with James about the importance of work in regards with salvation. They both agreed that without Christ and his Atonement, there was no way we could be saved, plain and simple, but they also agreed that works also played an important part in our salvation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I will consider toning it down. but not right now.

So if James is in fact (as you would say) giving us a mandate to achieve righteousness by law keeping, then how do we reconcile his teachings with what Paul has been saying in the above scriptures?

THis is a strawman. No one has claimed that you will achieve rightesousness solely by living the law.

But to pretend that you can be saved by just faith and no action is a false doctrine.

[Franktalk]

No there is not a myriad of scriptures that say that. it is only in James. and if you want to go to what James was really saying, then we can. but I promise you this. James is not talking about obeying the law for justification. He is talking about the one who ARE saved will bare fruit. if you do not bare fruit then it is possible you were never saved. James is in line with what Jesus and Paul taught, that Salvation leads to good works. good works does not lead to salvation

Are you of the crowd that says that good works can't exist until you are saved? If you are then your line of reasoning is laughable.

If you are a good person and you do good works it counts for you whether you believe in Christ or not. Jesus did not have faith in Christ because He was Christ. Jesus did good works on the earth. The Father was well pleased with His Son. We are to be like Christ and do good works but because we are not Christ we must have faith as well.

[Questing Beast]

Works and faith go together. There is no mutually exclusive teaching going here. If you have faith your works will show it. If your works are the result of faith it will be obvious to everyone. "Faith without works is dead" can also be said "Works without faith is vain", i.e. benefits the worker not at all....

[David T]

saint gato,

Where has any Mormon claimed that salvation has anything to do with obedience to the Law of Moses, which is what Paul is referring to by 'the law'?

[Nathair/|\]

I always hear LDS talking about having the true gospel and the full gospel. what then is the gospel? please explain.

Here is what Jesus had to say.

13Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washedtheir garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/27.13?lang=eng#

[BCSpace]

The "true Gospel" is those doctrines that show us how to take advantage of the Good News of Jesus Christ and his Atonement. Included (but not limited to) are the Biblical doctrines that good works, water baptism, marriage, and even being good with money are all requirements for salvation.

[LeSellers]

Galations 2

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Uh, we do not follow the Law of Moses. What are you trying to say here?

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Romans 4

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

As you can see, Abraham was justified before he received the sign of cercumcision.

What in the world does trhis have to do with the topic at hand?

Lehi

[inquiringmind]

Galations 3

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

I've thought about Galatians, but the LDS don't really keep the Jewish Law.

They don't keep kosher, they don't practice circumcision, they don't keep the seventh day Sabbath, and they don't keep the feast days.

If you have access to the Greek text of the passages you quote from Galatians, I'd be interested in whether Paul used the definite article?

Is he talking about "the" (Jewish) Law, or is he talking about "Law' (as in any external, written law.)

As for James, he said "faith without works is dead," but he went on to say "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (which could indicate that he, like Paul, viewed works of righteousness as the fruit of a living faith.)