The True Gospel

[LeSellers]

Lehi, How is your hand?

It's getting better. Still some pain, no more drugs, though. Can't handle the side effects: I get really loopy for an hour or two.

As I make a living typing (I'm a technical writer*), having that finger in a huge bandage and splint is not doing me or my employer much good.

Thanks for asking. I hope the typos haven't been too much to deal with.

Lehi

*Although I prefer my avocation of debt-elimination coaching.

[Nathair/|\]

It's getting better. Still some pain, no more drugs, though. Can't handle the side effects: I get really loopy for an hour or two.

As I make a living typing (I'm a technical writer*), having that finger in a huge bandage and splint is not doing me or my employer much good.

Thanks for asking. I hope the typos haven't been too much to deal with.

Lehi

*Although I prefer my avocation of debt-elimination coaching.

Nah, they haven't been too bad. Just enough to remind me what you're going through.

[Hestia]

I will consider toning it down. but not right now.

Consider it now please.

Also you need to tone down your signature. It is very distracting.

[Deborah]

Here is discussion on the gospel from the official LDS website:

Gospel

the first paragraph:

The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness. The central doctrine of the gospel is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4).

[saint gato]

bottom line is that you all believe that works and obedience is necessary for salvation. The true word of God is against you. you preach a false gospel. the same works mixed with grace gospel that the judaizers preached. your kind of theology is the reason that Paul wrote galations. the Spirit was received on hearing, not by doing. and that is exactly what Paul meant when he said "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" then Paul says "So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."... You will all deny it over and over, and trying to prove the point to you will be a wast time. you add works to the gospel like the judaizers did. they set it up by obeying the law of Moses, you do the same by saying one needs to

1. Be Baptized

2. Receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands

3. Hold the Priest hood

4. Obey the ten commandments

5. live the law of tithing

6. obey the word of Wisdom

7. Read the scriptures daily

8. follow the living prophet

9. receive the new and everlasting covenant in the temple

10.Baptize for the dead

11.endure to the end

12.have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet etc etc etc and more...

You believe grace after all you can do fist, so your gospel fundamentally is based on works first. Then you all have the nerve to say that you preach the true gospel and that it is not works based? I think not. again Paul says so I can make it clear to you " 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish?"

Romans 3

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4

6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 1

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Acts 10 (The Holy Spirit received apart from works, upon faith alone)

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

The Message of the gospel is clear. it is totally apart from works. Not a combination of works and grace. Again in romans to make an effort to drive the point home in romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The gospel you preach is not an addition, its a contradiction.

so this next verse directly applies to you.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! -Galatians 1

[Deborah]

Saint gato, do you think you are the first person to come on here and preach how wrong we are because we actually follow the Bible. You can parse scriptures all you want but the fact is what we believe is supported by the Bible. It astounds me how many newbies come on here and think they are going to present something so profound that we will all leave the LDS church immediately. Please.... Many of us are converts from other churches so we know what they teach and what the difference is.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

saint gato, are you going to continue to pretend my response didn't render your criticism void? Nothing you said so far addresses anything I said, and contends that I (as part of the collective whole) am saying what I clearly did not say. And your interpretational arguments are weak. Even your Book of Mormon references are poorly interpreted, your Nephi reference, could be said more like, "after all you can do, it is grace that you are saved." The problem is not a doctrinal one, it is semantic. Every Latter-day Saint believes in salvation by grace. Latter-day Saints merely reject the principles of the Calvinistic doctrine of grace enunciated at the Council of Dort.

Your Galatians reference of Paul warning of another gospel was in fact referring to the gospel that Christ taught and that Peter the Apostle had preached which Paul called the gospel of circumcision. As Peter refused to yield the new revelations from God to convert the Gentiles as Paul taught it. Paul didn't base what he called the gospel on old words, even when they were from Christ, but as new revelations dictated. It is you whom are as the Scribes and Pharisees who denied modern revelation and the Spirit of Prophecy, and in so denying, they were set adrift with ancient texts that, while they were the product of spiritual authority, they cannot transfer either authority or the truth of the teachings within, to others without the Spirit and principle of revelation. Our testimony of Joseph Smith is vital to our religion, but no more than men such as Matthew, etc. are vital to yours. Faith in the Apostles is the only reason you even know of Christ.

Christ's prophetic words to Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37-39): "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Do you claim to have the true gospel? Where is thy prophet that I should bother to listen?

[Nemesis]

bottom line is that you all believe that works and obedience is necessary for salvation. The true word of God is against you. you preach a false gospel. the same works mixed with grace gospel that the judaizers preached. your kind of theology is the reason that Paul wrote galations. the Spirit was received on hearing, not by doing. and that is exactly what Paul meant when he said "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" then Paul says "So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."... You will all deny it over and over, and trying to prove the point to you will be a wast time. you add works to the gospel like the judaizers did. they set it up by obeying the law of Moses, you do the same by saying one needs to

1. Be Baptized

2. Receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands

3. Hold the Priest hood

4. Obey the ten commandments

5. live the law of tithing

6. obey the word of Wisdom

7. Read the scriptures daily

8. follow the living prophet

9. receive the new and everlasting covenant in the temple

10.Baptize for the dead

11.endure to the end

12.have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet etc etc etc and more...

You believe grace after all you can do fist, so your gospel fundamentally is based on works first. Then you all have the nerve to say that you preach the true gospel and that it is not works based? I think not. again Paul says so I can make it clear to you " 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish?"

Romans 3

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4

6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 1

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Acts 10 (The Holy Spirit received apart from works, upon faith alone)

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

The Message of the gospel is clear. it is totally apart from works. Not a combination of works and grace. Again in romans to make an effort to drive the point home in romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The gospel you preach is not an addition, its a contradiction.

so this next verse directly applies to you.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! -Galatians 1

If you can't stop preaching you will banned from the board. Try to have a discussion that isn't so one-sided. Actually seeing that Hestia already gave you a final warning I am going to just ban you.

Nemesis

[Franktalk]

I have been dealing with anti-LDS people for a couple of years. This was even before I accepted JS as a prophet. To me their arguments did not have the ring of truth. And my personal interpretation of scripture matched the LDS doctrine even though I had not heard it yet. This is because I had cast off the world prior to reading the Bible for the first time. I saw the ideas presented as a puzzle and knew that the meaning was related to fitting the parts together into a complete message. I saw over time that a few key things unlocked scripture. The first was love. If you read the verses so that you could see the love of God come through then you probably got it right. Second was salvation. Every message leads to salvation. If you read something and it does not lead to furthering the plan of salvation then you probably have it wrong. And last, all scripture speaks of Christ.

People who use verses out of context or out of the main theme of God's message are of the world. There are many of them. Many of them call them self Christian.

[Kingsson]

And you seem to think that we Saints don't accept that.

Please disabuse yourself of this mistake: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as it was written by the men whom God called to write it.

Lehi

If you believe the Bible, Then you don't believe what the mormons teach.

[Kingsson]

Who has disupted this?

Apparently it was so unimportant that the Savior did it.

All of them including baptisms for the dead.

[1]Please note, Jesus is our example, He didn't get baptised to become a Son of God, He was already the Son of God, So Gods way is, First get born again, Then you can get baptised in water. Is that the way you see it.

[2] When you ay all of them, What do you mean??.

[3] There is no such teaching in the Bible of baptising for the dead. There was a group of people doing it, But Paul wasn't making a doctrine of it, He was just staying to those people If there is no resurrection from the dead, WHY DO YOU BAPTISE FOR THEM

PLEASE KEEP THE BIBLE IN IR'S RIGHT CONTEXT.

Besides,Acording to the Bible, You need at least two scriptures to build a doctrine.

[Mordecai]

If you believe the Bible, Then you don't believe what the mormons teach.

The more I study the Bible, the more impressed I am that Joseph Smith, a man who had a 3rd grade education, managed to interpret better than anyone of his day. What we believe is what, I say, is a superior interpretation of the Bible than you have.

[Kingsson]

I love it when someone says "the TRUE CHURCH history" because it means they already accept that there are many views and beliefs out there. Yet you quickly say "SO YOU ARE WRONG" Just what view am I wrong about? Are there any views which match my view but you reject? If so then how can I be wrong? I will tell you that when I read the Book of Mormon I already held to the many beliefs. It was the way I had already interpreted the Bible. So to me it is nothing new. It truly is just restored but not restored to me.

Ther are so many views, beliefs and opinions, There are so many religions But there is only one truth.

Read my post you have just replied to, And if you believe it, you are right, If you don't believe it, You are wrong.

I will only reject your view if it is wrong.

Your problem was, YOU INTERPRETED THE BIBLE, THAT IS WRONG, You should let the Bible interpret itself. The Bible isn't there to be interpreted, It is there to be believed.

[Kingsson]

No, sin is doing evil things when you know they are evil. Sin is rebellion, and one csannot rebel lunless he is a citizne.

It is, as Peter informs us, the means by which we answer a clear conscience toward God. He said, "[water] baptism doth now also save us". (Of course, he said it in Aramaic, and Mark wrote it down in Greek.) Jesus said it was impossible to enter the kingdom except by baptism, and John the Baptist told us that baptism remits our sins. I'd say that was significant.

You need both of them, of course, but it starts with the baptism of water, symbolizing the death and burial and resurrection of Christ and our own rebirth.

Lehi

Peter never said water baptisn saves, He said it is only a sybol of salvation, PLEASE NOTE, The water didn't save Noah, It was the ark that saved him, PLEASE NOTE, water killed the other people, NOT SAVED THEM.

Jesus never said you can only enter the Kingdom by water baptism. He said, You must be born of the water,[WORD] and the Spirit. Water is symbolic of the word. See Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.

Johns baptism only prepared the way for Jesus.

The Greek emphesis for saved in, "He that believeth and is baptised" is on the Believing, Not baptism.

The Greek emphesis for remision, in "Repent and be baptised for the remision of sins", Is on Repent, Not baptised.

You don't need water baptism to be saved, If you did, then God, Jesus Peter and Paul didn't know it.

[Mordecai]

I don't think anyone disputes that Jesus is greater than Paul, and we shouldn't suggest that Paul was a superior teacher of correct doctrine.

Let's see what Jesus has to say on salvation:

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.//36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together...John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed... Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ...[Jesus] said unto him...lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor... and come, follow me.

James, who knew Jesus well, being his half brother, taught that works are precursors to greater faith:

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with [Abraham's] works, and by works was faith made perfect?

It's pretty clear, if Abraham had not obeyed God, no angel would have appeared to him, and no ram would have been caught in the thicket. Would his faith have increased without the work of bringing Isaac to be sacrificed?

I find it hard to believe that Paul knew better than Jesus or James. Not to say that Paul was wrong. It's our translation and/or our interpretation that is the problem.

Romans 10:9-10 suggests that if we "confess that Jesus is Lord" and "believe that God raised Him from the dead," we'll be saved. Nowhere does Jesus say that if we confess that He is Lord, we'll be saved. However, Jesus does teach that if we become His servant (thereby making Him our Lord), we can be saved. If you go back to the Greek and consider that the Greek word pisteuo meant, prior to 200 A.D., "make an agreement," and you also consider that Paul did write his epistle to the Romans prior to 200 A.D., we might read Romans 10:9 as follows, "...if you make an agreement that Jesus is Lord... you'll be saved." That is to say, if you become Jesus's servant, i.e. "Come follow me" and become a "fisher of men," or, "labour for the meat that endures," you can be saved.

We might also consider what Paul says here:

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hearing the word of God is an internal work. You make a choice to hear/listen, which is a work in itself.

As far as I'm concerned, this is an open and shut case. You either accept Jesus as your Lord and agree to obey Him or you can't receive eternal life. Jesus Himself preached this, as did James as did Paul. If you want to increase your faith or even receive your first bit of faith, you have to do works.

[Nathair/|\]

If you believe the Bible, Then you don't believe what the mormons teach.

CFR

[Deborah]

[1]Please note, Jesus is our example, He didn't get baptised to become a Son of God, He was already the Son of God, So Gods way is, First get born again, Then you can get baptised in water. Is that the way you see it.

So why did Jesus get baptized if not to show us that if he who was perfect would be baptized then shouldn't all of us be baptized; othewise it was a senseless act. Isn't baptism itself the symbol of being born again; when one goes down in the water and comes up again his sins are washed away.

PLEASE KEEP THE BIBLE IN IR'S RIGHT CONTEXT.

Yes, please do and quit nitpicking what you accept and don't based solely on your interpretation.

And what the heck does it mean let the Bible interpret itself? It obviously isn't doing a very good job when if 10 people read it they all come away with a different interpretation.

[Nathair/|\]

[1]Please note, Jesus is our example, He didn't get baptised to become a Son of God, He was already the Son of God, So Gods way is, First get born again, Then you can get baptised in water. Is that the way you see it.

It is written:

4Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. 5And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

[2] When you ay all of them, What do you mean??.

Baptism of water, baptism of fire, baptism of blood.

[3] There is no such teaching in the Bible of baptising for the dead. There was a group of people doing it, But Paul wasn't making a doctrine of it, He was just staying to those people If there is no resurrection from the dead, WHY DO YOU BAPTISE FOR THEM

PLEASE KEEP THE BIBLE IN IR'S RIGHT CONTEXT.

He didn't need to, it was already established doctrine when he wrote that letter, as BCSpace's ECF quotes demonstrate.All of the epistles in the New Testament were written to people who were already baptized members of the Church.

Besides,Acording to the Bible, You need at least two scriptures to build a doctrine.

CFR

Yours under the scriptural oaks,

Nathair /|\

[urroner]

Gato, since you seem to know a lot more about God and His truths than we do:

1. How do you know you are a true Christian?

2. Which Christian Church has and teaches the most of God's truth? Are you a member of it?

3. How do you know the Bible is true and is the complete word of God and that He, God, doesn't/didn't/won't want to reveal more truth that is not in the Bible?

4. How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the correct interpretation?

5. How do you know you understand the context the different parts of the Bible were originally written in?

6. How important is it to understand the context in relation to understanding the text or is there no correlation at all?

[Franktalk]

Ther are so many views, beliefs and opinions, There are so many religions But there is only one truth.

Read my post you have just replied to, And if you believe it, you are right, If you don't believe it, You are wrong.

I will only reject your view if it is wrong.

Your problem was, YOU INTERPRETED THE BIBLE, THAT IS WRONG, You should let the Bible interpret itself. The Bible isn't there to be interpreted, It is there to be believed.

This is a common error of most men who read the Bible. I too fell into this trap for a while. The Bible is a bridge so we can learn some of the mechanics on how to talk to God. If we follow what the Bible says we clean our house by repenting of sin and we start to follow the commandments. Then we ask the Holy Ghost into our clean house. That is when we start to get the more sure spirit to spirit communication that reading can't supply. The true witness of God's truth is the Holy Ghost because it takes interpretation out of the equation. But the Holy Ghost does not sit on our shoulder and whisper a Bible interpretation in our ear. In some cases the Holy Ghost will confirm when we have something right and in some cases will tell us we are on the wrong track. The hard work is still for us to do. I do not know the correct interpretation of many areas of the Bible. I have an opinion on some things and others I am solid as a rock because I have the sure witness of God to back me up. But that is the core Gospel, the core of the plan of salvation, and the love of God.

We all bring our worldview with us as we read the Bible so we will all read it differently. The message is interwoven and each verse rests on the others. Let me give you am example:

Christ said:

Matthew 18:22 (King James Version)

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

This was said in response to a question about how many times we are to forgive someone. So it seems we are to forgive 490 times. But if we make the connection to another seventy times seven in Daniel the message actually becomes clear. In Daniel chapter 9 in the seventy week prophecy will bring an end to sin.

Daniel 9:24 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So the way I interpret the Bible Christ is saying to forgive sin until sin is no more. Now I have to ask you how do you interpret these same scriptures? Do you stick to the 490 literal reading or would consider the expanded meaning? Is it not true that both are true? You need to get off your high horse before someone knocks you off. There is lots of room in scripture for all of us to be wrong. Let us help each other by sharing what little we do know.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[1]Please note, Jesus is our example, He didn't get baptised to become a Son of God, He was already the Son of God, So Gods way is, First get born again, Then you can get baptised in water. Is that the way you see it.

I never said other wise. What you are doing is dodging my question. Why was Jesus baptised?

[2] When you ay all of them, What do you mean??.

I will respond to your question exactly as you respond to ours.

I mean it the way the bible teaches. You don't follow the bible.

[3] There is no such teaching in the Bible of baptising for the dead. There was a group of people doing it, But Paul wasn't making a doctrine of it, He was just staying to those people If there is no resurrection from the dead, WHY DO YOU BAPTISE FOR THEM

PLEASE KEEP THE BIBLE IN IR'S RIGHT CONTEXT.

Besides,Acording to the Bible, You need at least two scriptures to build a doctrine.

Oh burn.....

Your good.

So answer Paul's question. Why did the saints baptise those that are dead if the dead rise not? Notice how Paul was not rebuking them for doing the baptisms for the dead but because they did not beleive that Jesus rose from the dead.

And CFR please, were does the bible claim you need 2 scriptures to build a doctrine.

I am unaware of such a scripture. Besides the point we have more than 2 scriptures that back up our point of view.

My question for you is, were in the bible does it say the bible is enough?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Peter never said water baptisn saves, He said it is only a sybol of salvation, PLEASE NOTE, The water didn't save Noah, It was the ark that saved him, PLEASE NOTE, water killed the other people, NOT SAVED THEM.

Lol. What a stretch. Peter is clearly talking about the physical act of baptism. He even used Noah and the flood as an example of baptism.

Jesus never said you can only enter the Kingdom by water baptism. He said, You must be born of the water,[WORD] and the Spirit. Water is symbolic of the word. See Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.

THis is called prooftexting. Stop doing it. You are taking what Jesus said out of context and mudding it up with your intrepretation. Again Jesus, was clearly talking about water baptism. On must be born again of the water and the spirit.

Johns baptism only prepared the way for Jesus.

Please demonstrate this.

The Greek emphesis for saved in, "He that believeth and is baptised" is on the Believing, Not baptism.

The Greek emphesis for remision, in "Repent and be baptised for the remision of sins", Is on Repent, Not baptised.

You don't need water baptism to be saved, If you did, then God, Jesus Peter and Paul didn't know it.

Acutally they did know it and they taught it. It is you that is trying to twist their words into something else. Thanks for playing.

Why in the book of Acts does Peter tell people to be baptised for the remission of sins? It seems Peter thought that the physical act of baptism remitted sins.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I will only reject your view if it is wrong.

Your problem was, YOU INTERPRETED THE BIBLE, THAT IS WRONG, You should let the Bible interpret itself. The Bible isn't there to be interpreted, It is there to be believed.

Ha, Let the bible interpret itself. Is that what you call this?

Jesus never said you can only enter the Kingdom by water baptism. He said, You must be born of the water,[WORD] and the Spirit. Water is symbolic of the word. See Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.

[mfbukowski]

I never said other wise. What you are doing is dodging my question. Why was Jesus baptised?

I will respond to your question exactly as you respond to ours.

I mean it the way the bible teaches. You don't follow the bible.

Oh burn.....

Your good.

So answer Paul's question. Why did the saints baptise those that are dead if the dead rise not? Notice how Paul was not rebuking them for doing the baptisms for the dead but because they did not beleive that Jesus rose from the dead.

And CFR please, were does the bible claim you need 2 scriptures to build a doctrine.

I am unaware of such a scripture. Besides the point we have more than 2 scriptures that back up our point of view.

My question for you is, were in the bible does it say the bible is enough?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If you believe the Bible, Then you don't believe what the mormons teach.

Who is leaving the church with me? This person's arguments are just too much to bear.

The church is clearly false and Kingsson has just proven it.