The True Gospel

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have shown you what the Bible says, If that isn't proof, WHAT IT??

There is only one problem with this, you ahve not even done what you claim. You were going to show me the contradictions of teh BoM vs the Bible. You claimed you could do this. I am waiting for you to do this.

What I want from you is to actually quote what the bible says with out telling me what it plainly does say, it really does mean that.

[mfbukowski]

[1]I didn't say we shouldn't be baptised, I have been baptised, But that was Seven months after I was born again, [saved], So I know water baptism doesn't save.

I was baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues Two months before I was baptised in water, So I know water baptism doesn't save.

And I can prove it by scripture.

Water baptism is one identifying themself with Jesus, It is an outward sign of an ALREADY inward experience.

The reason it was, [And is] impportant is because a person is identifying that they are dead to self and risen with Jesus to a new life.

Water baptism doesn't wash our sins away, It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin, NOT WATER.

[2]I don't take scripture out of context, It is people who don't believe the Bible that think I do take them out of context.

[3]I am not nitpicking, I am saying what the Bible says, AND IT ISN'T MY OW INTERPRETATIONS.

[4] Let the Bible interpret itself, means, JUST BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS, In it's right context. Why 10 people come up with different interpretations is because they put theirown interpretations to it instead of puting it in context with the rest of the Bible and believing it.

For instance, The catholics interpret Matt 16: 18 as Jesus building His Church on Peter, But Jesus never said that.

The JWs interpret Jn 17: 3 as, eternal life is,"TAKING IN KNOWLEDGE OF GOD", But Jesus never said that.

The mormon interpret 1 Cor 15: 29 as they can baptise for the dead, But Paul never said that.

So you can see by taking one scripture out of context with the rest of the Bible can build wrong doctrines.

This really is a joke

In reading any sentence anywhere, you are making an interpretation.

The Bible cannot speak- it doesn't have a brain- it doesn't discuss anything. It is like a passive lump of cheese.

There are people I have met who are kind of like that too, I guess.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[1]I didn't say I want you to believe my interpretations, I want you to believe what the Bible says.

I don't care what you said. I am looking at what you are saying and what you are )or what you are not posting) and I am putting it all together. You want us to just ditch what we beleive for what you beleive just because you say so. YOu have not even come close to proving through the bible that the LDS position is wrong. Sorry.

[2]It isn't my interpretaion, Give me any of your doctrines, And I will show you from the Bible, Hebrew and Greek if they are right or wrong.

But this is the problem. All you have done in this thread is give us your interperatation of what you think the bible says.

Ok, I have one just for you. Matthew 25. The parable of the sheep and the goats. Tell me from the text, why the sheep are going to heaven and the goats are damned. What spearates the 2?

I am not interesting in your interpration. I am interested in what teh text states. What does it say?

[Kingsson]

You are the one, brother, that insist that plain english does not mean what it says. You are the one that constantly is saying things like "They were not saved buy water" When Peter tells us that "8 souls were saved by water." Should I believe you or Peter?

And you have utterly failed to show any of the things you claim You have not shown the Greek and you have not shown the bible.

You have not even quoted orgianal Greek and certainly have not backed it up with any crediable sources.

Peter never said water baptism saves, He said it is only a figure , Not the thing that saves, He ought to know, Baptism didn't save him.

He was baptised in water, But he wasn't saved until Jesus breathed the Spirit into him. Jn 20: 22. No one was saved untill then the disciples who weren't there, got saved on the day of pentecost,.

Paul was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost yet at that time he wasn't baptised in water, The Gentiles were saved baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, Yet they weren't baptised in water.

Isn't it strange how you know water baptism saves, Yet God doesn't know that. Maybe you should tell God he got it wrong. OR IS IT YOU??

I will believe God thanks.

[Kingsson]

I am sorry but that is not what the text says. You can't even back up your assertion here. We have backed up our interpration very well. The text does not say "That the like figure, which refers to water baptism". Those words appear no were in the bible.

If you can prove from the bible that Baptism doesn't save then please do it and stop wasting everyone's time.

You haven't backed up your interpretations, STOP TELLING LIES. I have said what the Bible and the Greek say, So I have backed up what the Bible says, STOP TELLING LIES.

I can only present the Biblical fact, I can't make you believe them.

[LeSellers]

You haven't backed up your interpretations, STOP TELLING LIES. I have said what the Bible and the Greek say, So I have backed up what the Bible says, STOP TELLING LIES.

You've done neither thing

Calling us liars will not get you any points, that's fer shure..

18 ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἔπαθεν δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων ἵνα ἡμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ θεῷ θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ τῷ πνεύματι 19 ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν 20 ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε ὅτε ἅπαξ ἐξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τουτέστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί διεσώθησαν δι᾽ ὕδατος 21 ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

Now, what does it say?

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You haven't backed up your interpretations, STOP TELLING LIES. I have said what the Bible and the Greek say, So I have backed up what the Bible says, STOP TELLING LIES.

I can only present the Biblical fact, I can't make you believe them.

I will let you have the last word on this if it will make your feel better.

I reject everything in your post here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Peter never said water baptism saves,

But he did say that "baptism now doth save us". And right before that he was talking about the like figure of the earth's baptism.

He said it is only a figure , Not the thing that saves, He ought to know, Baptism didn't save him.

Actually no, he did not. But lets go with your interpretation for a monent. What was our baptism a figure of? Please back up your interpretaion form what Peter wrote. It should preceed or follow the text in question.

He was baptised in water, But he wasn't saved until Jesus breathed the Spirit into him.

CFR please.

Jn 20: 22. No one was saved untill then the disciples who weren't there, got saved on the day of pentecost,.

Lets look at the text. I don't trust you any more.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So were in the text does it say they were saved at that point? All it says is that Jesus "he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" It does not even say "And they recieved teh HG".

Paul was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost yet at that time he wasn't baptised in water,

Were does it say this? CFR

The Gentiles were saved baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, Yet they weren't baptised in water.

CFR please. You are going to need a verse that says specifically what you claim is in the bible that says something similar to, "They were baptised by fire yet never were baptised by water. I am unaware of any such language.

Isn't it strange how you know water baptism saves, Yet God doesn't know that. Maybe you should tell God he got it wrong. OR IS IT YOU??

I will believe God thanks.

Actually what is interesting is that you are not able to back up any of your doctrine through the bible. No were does the bible claim that you don't need water baptism. And no were does it claim that believers in Christ were not baptised before fire baptism to be saved.

[LeSellers]

We're waiting, oh thou fount of all biblical knowledge.

18 ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἔπαθεν δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων ἵνα ἡμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ θεῷ θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ τῷ πνεύματι 19 ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν 20 ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε ὅτε ἅπαξ ἐξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τουτέστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί διεσώθησαν δι᾽ ὕδατος 21 ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

What does it say?

Lehi

[Nemesis]

You haven't backed up your interpretations, STOP TELLING LIES. I have said what the Bible and the Greek say, So I have backed up what the Bible says, STOP TELLING LIES.

I can only present the Biblical fact, I can't make you believe them.

Im going to give you one chance to read over the board guidelines. If you don't start backing up your assertions your time here will be short. I have zero patience for evangelicals that come here to preach have a discussion you might get some further insight.

Nemesis

[LeSellers]

Im going to give you one chance to read over the board guidelines. If you don't start backing up your assertions your time here will be short. I have zero patience for evangelicals that come here to preach have a discussion you might get some further insight.

What?!? no ability to post rep points for mods?!?

Disgraceful, I say!!

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What?!? no ability to post rep points for mods?!?

Disgraceful, I say!!

Lehi

I noticed this a while back.

[urroner]

At the risk of my sounding like a jerk, Kingsson is trying to sell us a dead parrot here and saying that it isn't dead.

[Mordecai]

You are mixing two scipture up, As for 1 Pet 3: 19, The Greek meanig is, Jesus proclaimed the victory, HE DIDN'T PREACH.

Actually, it says He preached in almost every translation of the Bible there is. It uses the word preached. One possible way to translate this is proclaimed but the phrase the victory is nowhere to be found.

As for 1 Pet 4: 6, This is still the same discourse as ch3, Jesus preached to the OT Righteous saints who were in paradice,[Abrahams bosom] See Lk 16: 19--26. The depated righteous went into Abraham bosom or paradice until the way to heaven was opened.

He did go to the spirit world, regardless. But as Peter says (who knew Jesus personally, unlike Luke):

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This is pretty clear. I don't need any help reading this, because it's obvious what it means.

You need at least two scriptures to build a doctrine.

Actually, according to Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, you don't build doctrines. You receive them from apostles and prophets.

As far as your invitation to "correct" me on my interpretation of the Bible, no thanks. You're not a prophet or an apostle. Your interpretation of the Bible is, as far as I can tell, just a run of the mill over-the-top arrogant evangelical trying to impose his will on everyone with no authority whatsoever other than their empty claims of fact.

Lastly, I presented my interpretation of the Bible. I gave you three examples of works being preached as prerequisite for faith, coming from Jesus, James and Paul. You failed to respond. Not that I was going to believe your answer.

[Kingsson]

But he did say that "baptism now doth save us". And right before that he was talking about the like figure of the earth's baptism.

Actually no, he did not. But lets go with your interpretation for a monent. What was our baptism a figure of? Please back up your interpretaion form what Peter wrote. It should preceed or follow the text in question.

CFR please.

Lets look at the text. I don't trust you any more.

So were in the text does it say they were saved at that point? All it says is that Jesus "he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" It does not even say "And they recieved teh HG".

Were does it say this? CFR

CFR please. You are going to need a verse that says specifically what you claim is in the bible that says something similar to, "They were baptised by fire yet never were baptised by water. I am unaware of any such language.

Actually what is interesting is that you are not able to back up any of your doctrine through the bible. No were does the bible claim that you don't need water baptism. And no were does it claim that believers in Christ were not baptised before fire baptism to be saved.

You realy are ignorant of the Bible, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT SAYS... DO YOU.

You are trying to justify you beliefs, And you have no idear what the Bible says about them... DO YOU.

[1]Concerning baptism as a "like figure", The original Greek meaning is,

"A form a type", Baptism is only a type of salvtion, it doesn't save us. End quote.

And if you keep it in context with the Bible, You'll see water baptism doesn't save.

[2]Peter was saved when Jesus breathed the Holy Gost into him and the other disciples. Jn 20: 21--22, Salvation is being born of the Spirit,

Jn 3: 3--8, PLEASE NOTE, Jesus mentions "Born of the Spirit, 3 times, Borns again, 4 times, But water only once. And the water here is sybolic of the word, Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26, And James says we are born again by the word, Jm 1: 18. And Peter says the same, 1 Pet 1: 22-23..

I know Peter was saved in Jn 20 : 22, Because he had the Agape love of God in Jn 21: 15--17. One of the words used for love in this passage is the Agape love of God, God's love, You can only have that if you are born again.

[3] Paul was saved in Acts 9: 6, Every Greek Bible scholar agrees that v6 was Saul's conversion. And in v17, Ananias calld Saul,

"Brother Saul", You wouldn't call a sinner, "Brother Jo" or whatever. Then in v17, Saul receieved the Holy Ghost. You cannot have the Holy Ghost unless you are saved. You have to be born of the Spirit before you can be baptised in the Holy Ghost.

Except for the coming of the Holy Ghost on the Jews, Acts 2: 1--4, And the Gentiles, Acts 10: 44--46. when they were saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost, A person today can be saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost at the same time, I have seen people healed, saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost, All at the same time.

So in Acts 9: 6 & 17, Saul was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost, Yet he wasn't baptised in water at that time.

The Gentiles were saved, Baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, Acts 10: 44--46, But they weren't baptised in water at this time.

You can't receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues unless you are saved, So they were saved, But not baptised in water, WHICH PROVES WATER BAPTISM DOESN'T SAVE.

Paul said Througjh his Ministry poeple were saved [born again], 1 Cor 4: 15. Yet he said he didn't baptised them in water, 1 Cor 1: 14. So Paul knew water baptism doesn't save, He ought to he had a first hand experience of salvation and the Holy Ghost before he was baptised in water.

So if baptism saves, THEN GOD DIDN'T KNOW IT, He got people saved without water baptism.

[Kingsson]

This really is a joke

In reading any sentence anywhere, you are making an interpretation.

The Bible cannot speak- it doesn't have a brain- it doesn't discuss anything. It is like a passive lump of cheese.

There are people I have met who are kind of like that too, I guess.

STOP TELLING LIES and believe what the Bible says, OH I forgot, You can't believe what the Bible says, You know if you do, It will prove your doctrine wrong.

[Kingsson]

I don't care what you said. I am looking at what you are saying and what you are )or what you are not posting) and I am putting it all together. You want us to just ditch what we beleive for what you beleive just because you say so. YOu have not even come close to proving through the bible that the LDS position is wrong. Sorry.

But this is the problem. All you have done in this thread is give us your interperatation of what you think the bible says.

Ok, I have one just for you. Matthew 25. The parable of the sheep and the goats. Tell me from the text, why the sheep are going to heaven and the goats are damned. What spearates the 2?

I am not interesting in your interpration. I am interested in what teh text states. What does it say?

What separates the shepp ang the goats, is, The sheep are living for God and will go to heaven, and the goats aren't doing God's will and are going to hell.

[Kingsson]

Im going to give you one chance to read over the board guidelines. If you don't start backing up your assertions your time here will be short. I have zero patience for evangelicals that come here to preach have a discussion you might get some further insight.

Nemesis

I have told you what the Bible says, You either believe it or you don't But you can check it for yourself and see I am right,

If you notice my last fred, I have givin scriptures.

[Kingsson]

At the risk of my sounding like a jerk, Kingsson is trying to sell us a dead parrot here and saying that it isn't dead.

Man your sick, And you are a bad winess for your faith.

[Kingsson]

Im going to give you one chance to read over the board guidelines. If you don't start backing up your assertions your time here will be short. I have zero patience for evangelicals that come here to preach have a discussion you might get some further insight.

Nemesis

I hve been baned from one Mormon forum for proving them wrong through the Bible, Are you going to ban me because you know I will prove you wrong?? Or are you going to try and prove you are right. I am up for the challange, ARE YOU. Or are you afraid the Bible doesn't suport your doctrines.

[Mordecai]

I am up for the challange, ARE YOU. Or are you afraid the Bible doesn't suport your doctrines.

Proverbs 16:18

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Perhaps in this case, the "fall" will be getting banned. You sound pretty insane here, as in maniacal. Get a grip.

[Kingsson]

Actually, it says He preached in almost every translation of the Bible there is. It uses the word preached. One possible way to translate this is proclaimed but the phrase the victory is nowhere to be found.

He did go to the spirit world, regardless. But as Peter says (who knew Jesus personally, unlike Luke): This is pretty clear. I don't need any help reading this, because it's obvious what it means.

Actually, according to Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, you don't build doctrines. You receive them from apostles and prophets.

As far as your invitation to "correct" me on my interpretation of the Bible, no thanks. You're not a prophet or an apostle. Your interpretation of the Bible is, as far as I can tell, just a run of the mill over-the-top arrogant evangelical trying to impose his will on everyone with no authority whatsoever other than their empty claims of fact.

Lastly, I presented my interpretation of the Bible. I gave you three examples of works being preached as prerequisite for faith, coming from Jesus, James and Paul. You failed to respond. Not that I was going to believe your answer.

Your post is filled with ignorance of the scriptures and the original Greek text, and lies. SO MUCH FOR YOUR BELIEFS.

You aren't up for the challenge because you know you'll get whipped by the Bible, Hebrew and Greek, For instance, The Greek meanig to "Preached" in 1 Pet 3;19, Is, "Proclaim the victory, It isn't use to evengelise,[Preach the gospel].

When Jesus went to the underworld he proclaimed the victory over death, the devil, demons and sinners in hell. The He preached the Gospel to the righteouse men of God in paradice, See Lk 16: 19--26.

Apart from Jesus giving the Old Testament righteous men of God the gospel and Jesus proclaiming victory over the devil, Ther is no other scriptures that say the gospel is preached to the dead. The Gospel is preached in this lifetime, It is to late after one dies.

[Mordecai]

Your post is filled with ignorance of the scriptures and the original Greek text, and lies. SO MUCH FOR YOUR BELIEFS.

You've got problems.

It isn't use to evengelise...

According to every translation of the Bible I've looked at, you're wrong. Are you an expert in Greek? Because the translators of the KJV and NIV (among a few others) were. They disagree with you. Kypros.org's English-Greek dictionary disagrees also. So much for your authority as a Greek-English translator. Not that it matters. It's obvious by the context that the spirits were preached to so that they might "live according to God in the spirit." Clearly, it was preaching that occurred, and said preaching resulted in those spirits being enabled to live according to God in the spirit. Obviously, because that's what it says for all to read, regardless of your insistence that we should listen to you instead of the scriptures, like you're a prophet. Again, you have problems.

[urroner]

Man your sick, And you are a bad winess for your faith.

So the pot is calling the kettle black. Interesting.

I find it rather fascinating when a person comes onto this message board and has this grandiose idea of converting all us evil, vile, corrupt Mormons simply by throwing out a few scriptures and telling us that we are wrong, wrong, wrong. This person also refuses to discuss anything, rather he/she lectures us and makes all sorts of pontifications.

This person also demands that we offer all sorts of evidence that what we believe is right, but when evidence is presented, it is completely ignored and the person continues with their lecturing and, dare I say it, why yes I do, their bloviations.

Also interesting is this person, while demanding that we offer all sorts of evidence for the validity of our beliefs, will offer very little for his. Sure this person will throw out a couple of scriptures and then will simply say that what he believes is true and that it is intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. OIOW, the person will inevitably fall back to the position of "The Bible interprets itself if you just let it." This position, if stated in clear, unambiguous words, mean "You Mormons don't interpret the Bible correctly, but I can. My interpretation is true and how dare you Satan worshipers challenge my beliefs and interpretations. My interpretation is true. If it wasn't true, then I wouldn't believe it. I am saved, therefore, I cannot be wrong."

You reject anything that disagrees with your beliefs simply out of hand. You refuse to discuss and when you leave this board, you will walk away with a feeling of pure righteousness. You will feel that you have shown us pond scum Mormon types the truth and that we have rejected it, thus showing to you and to God that we are worthy of an eternity of Hell and endless punishment.

And I get a feeling that you will be okay with this judgement. After all, we rejected you and truly deserve Hell. Funny thing is, you are not Christ. Sorry Kingsson, rejecting you is not the same as rejecting Christ.

One thing I have found out in my long life is that people like you accuse others of having certain characteristics, characteristics they find very bad and they insist that we transform ourselves and shed these vile characteristics, but if these people were to look in a mirror and study themselves in truth, they would find that they possess these characteristics in spades.

Kingsson, you are trying to sell us a dead parrot.

[ERayR]

I have told you what the Bible says, You either believe it or you don't But you can check it for yourself and see I am right,

If you notice my last fred, I have givin scriptures.

No, all you have done is tell everybody what you think the Bible says and your not even close.