Hamba Tuhan Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I don't have the actual numbers, but I know membership is down where I live.Members have moved away, or people have actually apostatised?
Bernard Gui Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 1 Nephi 14:12I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few...nevertheless, I beheld that the saints of God were also upon all theface of the earth, and their dominions were small...3 Nephi 7:7And they [secret combinations] did cause a great contention in the land,insomuch that the more righteous part of the people had nearly all becomewicked; yea, and there were but few righteous men among them.3 Nephi 7:21...there were but few who were converted to the Lord...3 Nephi 14:14...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life,and few there be that find it.Ahhh, the book for our times.Are there prophecies or revelations that the church of the end times will be humongouslybig with a continued increasing growth rate? Please share.Let's also remember the parables of the sower and the leavening.Bernard
rockslider Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Why all the mystery? You allude to stuff but refuse to say what you're talking about, as if we are supposed to know what you mean.I sure don't! I suppose it is about John Dehlin again- what happened? No intention of mystery, just assume people board bounch ... this has been all over serveral boards ... here's one http://forum.neworde...der=asc&start=0 Take the time and read this thread, or not.I'd suggest that whatever your ward's activity percentage is, some percentage of that group may:1. Not hold TR's because of orthodoxy issues.2. Have a spouse that is inactive or struggling.3. Have other family members that are inactive or struggling.4. Have lurked or participated in online religious forums.5. Will be introduced to or stumble across online religious forums.I suspect that the Church is very concerned about this issue. It would be very hard to counter an online society of the likes of Mormon Stories and the various support group sites that have popped up over the years. I just hope that the Church does not resort back to likes of 1993 excommunications (intellectuals at that time, middle-way this time). This current example feels a lot like that.Get the dogs shaking the bushes and more middle-way members than was expected might be flushed into making hard decisions. If I am cynical, it is not about the church but about the forum. Its cynicism towards others which these forums seem to bring out in me. Not sure why I keep coming back.
rockslider Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Ahhh, the book for our times.Are there prophecies or revelations that the church of the end times will be humongouslybig with a continued increasing growth rate? Please share.Let's also remember the parables of the sower and the leavening.BernardYou're holding a doubled edged sword there brother.I remember years back ETB's push on beware of pride and his push for the members to return to the study of the BoM. Some of us UTBM's read into his message that he was telling us to learn of the cycle presented, where a righteous seed was raised up to a great nation, and a dormant seed was raised up, in wickedness to a great nation. And somewhere along the line the dormant seed turned again to righteousness, and the nephite nation shot arrows at the Laminite but could not fell him,It's been said, that in the final days, God would start the cleansing in his own house. Well, I suppose that might be the uncorrelated members, but then again I can also see the prophecies fit the correlated members, or just the Church as a whole.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 In 1999 the church reported 10,752,986 members and 25,793 congregations which calculates to 417 members per congregation (M/C). The Church recently released its 2010 statistics at 14,131,467 members, 28,660 congregations or 493 M/C. Listed below are the statistics for each year since 1999.1999: 417 M/C (10,752,986/25,793)2000: 427 M/C (11,068,861/25,915)2001: 437 M/C (11,394,522/26,084)2002: 448 M/C (11,721,548/26,143)2003: 457 M/C (11,985,254/26,237)2004: 460 M/C (12,275,822/26,670)2005: 464 M/C (12,560,869/27,087)2006: 468 M/C (12,868,606/27,475)2007: 474 M/C (13,193,999/27,827)2008: 481 M/C (13,508,509/28,109)2009: 486 M/C (13,824,854/28,424)2010: 493 M/C (14,131,467/28,660)Utah has 1,910,343 members and 4,834 congregations for 395 M/C. Without Utah's numbers the Church has 12,221,124 members and 23,826 congregations or 513 M/C.I believe the increase in the number of members per congregation is evidence that attendance rates are dropping.These are the last days, of course they are dropping. People are too caught up in the cares of the world. They put their faith in the “arm of flesh”, more than God.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I don't have the actual numbers, but I know membership is down where I live. The stake president was concerned about it and made it the focus at stake conference, and concluded by strongly encouraged members to seek out 5 non-LDS friends to try and introduce to the LDS church in order to get the numbers up (the missionaries even passed out a "worksheet" of shorts so you could write there names down and times when you could invite them over for discussions).Did you attend?
Whiskeypete Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 http://mormonstories.org/?p=1583 John mentions in this presentation that active membership rates are at 18%. it was suggested that is based on once per month attendance.He would not name the source but indicated it was from way up the ladder.I saw somewhere recently that his brother is way up the ladder. http://www.ldscio.org/ 2010: 88 M/C (2,543,664/28,660)(emphasis mine)This statement concerns me as it seems to imply that active members average a once per month attendance. I might be reading something into it that wasn't intended, but just wanted to clarify that activity is based on a MINIMUM of once per month attendance. I'm fairly confident that those who are considered active attend more often than once per month.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 No intention of mystery, just assume people board bounch ... this has been all over serveral boards ... here's one http://forum.neworde...der=asc&start=0 Take the time and read this thread, or not.I'd suggest that whatever your ward's activity percentage is, some percentage of that group may:1. Not hold TR's because of orthodoxy issues.2. Have a spouse that is inactive or struggling.3. Have other family members that are inactive or struggling.4. Have lurked or participated in online religious forums.5. Will be introduced to or stumble across online religious forums.I suspect that the Church is very concerned about this issue. It would be very hard to counter an online society of the likes of Mormon Stories and the various support group sites that have popped up over the years. I just hope that the Church does not resort back to likes of 1993 excommunications (intellectuals at that time, middle-way this time). This current example feels a lot like that.Get the dogs shaking the bushes and more middle-way members than was expected might be flushed into making hard decisions. Its cynicism towards others which these forums seem to bring out in me. Not sure why I keep coming back.They are always welcome to attend a RLDS Restoration Branch while searching out answers. That's what I did when I began my journey out of the LDS Church, and that is where I eventually found my church home.
jskains Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 They are always welcome to attend a RLDS Restoration Branch while searching out answers. That's what I did when I began my journey out of the LDS Church, and that is where I eventually found my church home.Yes, because the RLDS certainly don't have their own baggage of issues to contend with. *eyeroll*JMS
seriously honestly Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Did you attend?Yea. My sister was up from Salt Lake for the week, so I went to church with her and my family. It wasn't my intention to stay for the meeting or the rest of the three hour block, but she really wanted me to and at the time hadn't seen her since Christmas, so I stayed.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Yes, because the RLDS certainly don't have their own baggage of issues to contend with. *eyeroll*JMSWow... It was just a friendly invitation to change things up a bit for the time being.I see that your animosity has, in deed, finally gotten the better of you.I hope you can learn to let go of that anger some day.
jskains Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Wow... It was just a friendly invitation to change things up a bit for the time being.I see that your animosity has, in deed, finally gotten the better of you.I hope you can learn to let go of that anger some day.LOL, no I just point out the facts. Your comments make it sound as if your breakaway of a breakaway of a breakaway religion is all roses and sunshine. I have no anger. Just because someone points out a fact does not make one angry.JMS
seriously honestly Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Members have moved away, or people have actually apostatised?Not sure how many people have movied out of the stake. Just that there is growing inactivity and no new growth (I do know a few of the inactives no longer believe the church but their names are still on the membership rolls). I could probably find out the numbers for sure, but it would take a little while.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 LOL, no I just point out the facts. Your comments make it sound as if your breakaway of a breakaway of a breakaway religion is all roses and sunshine. I have no anger. Just because someone points out a fact does not make one angry.JMSI have never made such a claim anywhere on this board, and I regularly get frustrated by some of the things a see within the RLDS Restoration Movement. The vitriol with which you have been attacking "critics" over the last 2 weeks, betray your anger, my friend.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Not sure how many people have movied out of the stake. Just that there is growing inactivity and no new growth....That's OK. I assumed you meant that attendance was down when you said membership was down.
jskains Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I have never made such a claim anywhere on this board, and I regularly get frustrated by some of the things a see within the RLDS Restoration Movement. The vitriol with which you have been attacking "critics" over the last 2 weeks, betray your anger, my friend.Hmm... I haven't noticed my anger. No one around me has noticed me being angry (you know, people who can see and talk to me, listen to vocal reflections, or whatnot). Good thing we have you to point out the "vitriol" and anger I am filled with. JMS
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Hmm... I haven't noticed my anger. No one around me has noticed me being angry (you know, people who can see and talk to me, listen to vocal reflections, or whatnot). Good thing we have you to point out the "vitriol" and anger I am filled with. JMSGlad I could help.
jskains Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 *eyeroll*Anyways, back to the topic on hand, this website:http://ldschurchgrowth-us-canada.blogspot.comIs the site I usually track and most of the time it shows positive ward creations throughout the U.S. So it can't be all that bad.JMS
bu11fr0g Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 The number of congregations and people/congregation is a meaningless number. New congregations can be made at a whim just to make the numbers look good. There was a time that this was a very real problem. The recurrent splitting lead to very small wards and branches that were not viable. It was found that a certain number of people were needed to form a strong ward and these criteria have been adopted into deciding when to split stakes and wards. (Active Melchizedek priesthood holders is one index.)Larger numbers/congregation wards are MORE likely to be active do to the less draining demands placed on those that are active -- which n turns leads to more energy for the important social aspects of the church.
rockslider Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 They are always welcome to attend a RLDS Restoration Branch while searching out answers. That's what I did when I began my journey out of the LDS Church, and that is where I eventually found my church home.Very neighborly of you!I have the greatest respect for the Restoration Branch, and also for the likes of Uncle Dale who fragmented from what must have been a very painful explosion. Also, is it ThunderFire, who has represented the CoC here in a very Christlike manner.I could see myself worshiping God among any of these individuals/organizations.
mfbukowski Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 No intention of mystery, just assume people board bounch ... this has been all over serveral boards ... here's one http://forum.neworde...der=asc&start=0 Take the time and read this thread, or not.I'd suggest that whatever your ward's activity percentage is, some percentage of that group may:1. Not hold TR's because of orthodoxy issues.2. Have a spouse that is inactive or struggling.3. Have other family members that are inactive or struggling.4. Have lurked or participated in online religious forums.5. Will be introduced to or stumble across online religious forums.I suspect that the Church is very concerned about this issue. It would be very hard to counter an online society of the likes of Mormon Stories and the various support group sites that have popped up over the years. I just hope that the Church does not resort back to likes of 1993 excommunications (intellectuals at that time, middle-way this time). This current example feels a lot like that.Get the dogs shaking the bushes and more middle-way members than was expected might be flushed into making hard decisions. Its cynicism towards others which these forums seem to bring out in me. Not sure why I keep coming back.Of course the church is concerned about less- actives: always has been- that's nothing new! And the church is making a major move to "rescue" the inactives- THAT is the whole theme of President Monson's "administration" - I am not sure why no one seems to have noticed.About that thread- Straight up?I have never understood this stuff. It is just silly to me. If you don't believe, leave the church. If you do, get to work and do what you're supposed to.All this High Drama is just silly. I have many members of my family who don't talk to me because of me being LDS and that is their problem, not mine. I have lost business clients- many of them for being LDS and that is also their problem, not mine.If you don't believe it, like I didn't believe my last church, get out. Period. Stand up like a mensch and do what's right.If you only believe some of it, start your own off-shoot branch- who cares? If that is what is happening up there, it is what it is!I just don't get the drama, that's all!
rockslider Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 About that thread- Straight up?From following your posts over the last few years, I believe we are very much alike, personality wise. No nonsense, lead, follow or get out the heck out of the way type of guys.Seems the older I get, the more liberal and bleeding heart I’m becoming.Hopefully the following will cut to the chase of the “drama”.1. Small branch in Oregon2. Self proclaimed NOM member in various online arenas 3. Silent about nomness in the branch, did NOT want to leave the church4. Shoulder to the wheel individual holding several (seems it was between 4 and 6) positions in the branch, including the EQP.5. Has a sibling brother who is SP in another area6. Family members notice his online presence.7. SP brother in contact with Logan area SP8. Middle-way witch hunt begins9. EQP position taken away because of no TR10. Things go silent while other family/leadership meetings happen11. The man announces that he must leave all online forums and that he is going inactive. 12. From a later post from his wife, I assume she will follow.
rockslider Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 This recently linked from the leaper colony What say ye? A cleaning and purging is inevitable, or an opening of arms and embracing lies ahead, or whats all the drama, nothing to see here?
TAO Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 rockslider, the reason why the 'NOMish' lifestyle is problematic, is because it convinces others that it is acceptable to be in the Church and yet not believe it's truth claims.How do you think God is going to look at it... honestly?I mean... is he gonna be wondering... if you didn't believe it's true, why didn't you get out? Or why didn't gain a testimony, so you could stay in?Loaded, Question, I guess. =/Maybe it's just because I'm used to being a social outcast, but choosing to go one's way seems alot more free then being bound to something you don't believe in. Alas, that is the debate in their heads. That is the thing about dealing in apologetics, I have found; one must be strong to endure the many things people will throw at you - people don't play nice, and it is important to believe in your 'beliefs' before you go to defend them. I don't understand NOMs because they go looking for the exact opposite place towards where they should look when trying to support their testimony in the Church. And that makes me sad. =/ They fall away because they don't look in the right places - their hearts. They don't let their heart reason it out with them. =(
rockslider Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 rockslider, the reason why the 'NOMish' lifestyle is problematic, is because it convinces others that it is acceptable to be in the Church and yet not believe it's truth claims.Yes, I do believe this is a big part of the question, which all members should be asking. Are these partial believers a big enough danger that the Church should purge them? Is there some level of disbelieve where a line can be drawn, or is it all or nothing at all?I assume it’s the new online CHI manual which has now officially made it a requirement to hold a TR for various positions and activities outside of the temple. If all or nothing at all, I suppose requiring all members to be TR'ed would be a good filter.How do you think God is going to look at it... honestly?The spirit has whispered to me on a few occasions. I honestly don't think God is too pleased with the situation. I mean... is he gonna be wondering... if you didn't believe it's true, why didn't you get out? Or why didn't gain a testimony, so you could stay in?I'd suggest some are staying in because they have a testimony of Christ verses a testimony of the Church.Maybe it's just because I'm used to being a social outcast, but choosing to go one's way seems alot more free then being bound to something you don't believe in. Alas, that is the debate in their heads. I'd suggest you are way out of touch on why they are trying to stay.That is the thing about dealing in apologetics, I have found; one must be strong to endure the many things people will throw at you - people don't play nice, and it is important to believe in your 'beliefs' before you go to defend them. What in the world does this have to do with apologetics? I'm talking about people, whom well may be sitting next to you next Sunday, who might be better served with a helping hand pulling them close, verses a shoving arm, from fear of their potentially contagious leprosy.I don't understand NOMs… That's pretty clear.
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