Lareliw Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I honestly was not sure what to put as to the title of this. Forgive me if it is not as coherent as a I wish, but as I have said before I have recently had foot surgery, have much pain from it, so I am not functioning 100% just yet My question is this: I was thinking about the great battle in Heaven, when Lucifer, the Morning Star of God, fell with the other angels that sided with him. He was cast out of Heaven because He desired to usurp the power that is God's alone, and become like God himself. I was thinking back to the statement, I'm sorry i can't remember who made it, of "as man is, God once was; as God is, man will be" or something of that nature, and combining the two thought patterns in my mind scared me a bit. If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses? I am really interested in responses, and I will be back as much as I can. Also please keep me in your prayers for my silly foot
Otis Spurlock Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I honestly was not sure what to put as to the title of this. Forgive me if it is not as coherent as a I wish, but as I have said before I have recently had foot surgery, have much pain from it, so I am not functioning 100% just yet My question is this: I was thinking about the great battle in Heaven, when Lucifer, the Morning Star of God, fell with the other angels that sided with him. He was cast out of Heaven because He desired to usurp the power that is God's alone, and become like God himself. I was thinking back to the statement, I'm sorry i can't remember who made it, of "as man is, God once was; as God is, man will be" or something of that nature, and combining the two thought patterns in my mind scared me a bit. If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses? I am really interested in responses, and I will be back as much as I can. Also please keep me in your prayers for my silly foot For me, the War in Heaven brings up many questions:1) If there was one War in Heaven, what is to stop many other War's in Heaven from happening? Maybe War's in Heaven happen all of the time over power struggles, politics or any number of trivial things; and2) How is a War in Heaven fought? Are there actual injuries and physical struggles, or is it more of a mental war?Anyways, It's obvious I have too much free time on my hands to be thinking about this.P.S. I will keep you and your big foot in my prayers tonight.
Nathair/|\ Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Here is a good description of the LDS pov on your question. It is written for children, but it's the most concise version I could find quickly.(This story is found in Abr. 3:21
TAO Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I honestly was not sure what to put as to the title of this. Forgive me if it is not as coherent as a I wish, but as I have said before I have recently had foot surgery, have much pain from it, so I am not functioning 100% just yet My question is this: I was thinking about the great battle in Heaven, when Lucifer, the Morning Star of God, fell with the other angels that sided with him. He was cast out of Heaven because He desired to usurp the power that is God's alone, and become like God himself. I was thinking back to the statement, I'm sorry i can't remember who made it, of "as man is, God once was; as God is, man will be" or something of that nature, and combining the two thought patterns in my mind scared me a bit. If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses? I am really interested in responses, and I will be back as much as I can. Also please keep me in your prayers for my silly foot Nah... it wasn't that he wanted to be like God himself that was what cause Satan to be cast out... it was rebelling after he got turned down. The disobedience; the rebellion, was the problem, I think... it is written he tried to destroy agency.Here... let me get the whole verse:Moses 4:1-31 And I, the aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That bSatan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the cbeginning, and he came before me, saying
The Nehor Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 It wasn't Lucifer's goal that God had a problem with; it was his methods. I also think monomania about godhood amongst LDS is dangerous and irreverent. We have to become humble to acquire it and a fascination with future power isn't conducive to this.
Thunderfire Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 In my opinion, what got Lucifer in trouble was not that he wanted to be like God, but that he proposed taking away the agency of man in the redemption process...
Calm Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 He not only wanted to be like God, he wanted to essentially to be God....he wanted God's glory for himself, he wanted the worship that was God's to be his instead of God's, etc. This is significantly different than someone seeking to become one with the Father by aligning one's own will and desires with the Father's which in the end has the result of increasing God's glory, not taking it from him for oneself.
Garden Girl Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 He not only wanted to be like God, he wanted to essentially to be God....he wanted God's glory for himself, he wanted the worship that was God's to be his instead of God's, etc. This is significantly different than someone seeking to become one with the Father by aligning one's own will and desires with the Father's which in the end has the result of increasing God's glory, not taking it from him for oneself.Hello Lareliw...I hope you can see from the responses so far the difference between Lucifer's intentions and what Heavenly Father really wants for his children, i.e., that we would come here to take a physical body, to learn and progress... and to become like him...In Christ's Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:48) he states: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."But Heavenly Father knew that because we would have our agency (which Lucifer wanted to take away), we would falter at times, so He provided a Savior for us who would atone for our sins.The apostle Paul taught: (Romans 8:16-17) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God,And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."Our whole purpose is to become like God... and glorify him always. There's a big difference between this and what Lucifer proposed.GG
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I honestly was not sure what to put as to the title of this. Forgive me if it is not as coherent as a I wish, but as I have said before I have recently had foot surgery, have much pain from it, so I am not functioning 100% just yet My question is this: I was thinking about the great battle in Heaven, when Lucifer, the Morning Star of God, fell with the other angels that sided with him. He was cast out of Heaven because He desired to usurp the power that is God's alone, and become like God himself. I was thinking back to the statement, I'm sorry i can't remember who made it, of "as man is, God once was; as God is, man will be" or something of that nature, and combining the two thought patterns in my mind scared me a bit. If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses? I am really interested in responses, and I will be back as much as I can. Also please keep me in your prayers for my silly foot The reason why Lucifer fell is he tried to take a power not rightfully his yet, Lucifer wasn't ready for exaltation and in his impatience he tried to take it by force. He wanted glory and he didn't want to wait to receive it via the proper and determined plan of salvation that was agreed upon in the Council in Heaven. We are following the plan of salvation though if we are worthy to inherit exaltation and become gods and goddesses like our Heavenly Parents, it is because we are ready to obtain that responsibility and the power and rights that pertain to it.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 1) If there was one War in Heaven, what is to stop many other War's in Heaven from happening? Our eternal progression and the justice of God is what prevents further war in Heaven, this battle was allowed because it fit into Heavenly Father's plan for us. He allowed the rebellious children to choose to resist his plan for us and to fall and become our tempters for our mortal lives. After this battle the rebellious were cast out of heaven so there is no continuing conflict and when we return to heaven post judgement day, there is no more conflict between men so there will be no new wars. 2) How is a War in Heaven fought? Are there actual injuries and physical struggles, or is it more of a mental war? According to the scriptures it was not a physical battle but a spiritual battle, seeing that none of us (Christ included) had a physical body at the time there could be no physical battle. It was a battle of testimony and faith, with our testimony and faith in Christ overcoming the faith that the fallen placed in Lucifer.
oremites Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 ... I also think monomania about godhood amongst LDS is dangerous and irreverent. We have to become humble to acquire it and a fascination with future power isn't conducive to this.I guess everyone's experience is different, but I've seen very little "monomania" about godhood amongst the LDS. They seem, in the main, to be more concerned about what they can do in the here and now than dreaming about "future power". The LDS people I've actually discussed this with seem to have the same attitude as me, which is, "I really can't picture myself as a god, but if God says it could happen someday, I'll just have to trust Him. Anyway, I've got too much to do to really be concerned about it."The "monomania about godhood" seems to come from the critics of the church, in my experience.
rameumptom Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I think the problem is that Satan attempted to overthrow God. He didn't just want to be one of many gods under God in the divine council, but wanted the throne for himself. This is how many Christians interpret Isaiah 14 as regarding Lucifer.God has no problem with us becoming as He is, as long as we do it on His terms.In fact, many of the early Christian fathers spoke of man becoming as God is. St Augustine wrote: "God became man so that man might become a god". Now, there are differences in how each one views theosis (becoming god), but in general the concept is still there.
Magyar Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Timing, motivation and authorization all play their part in whether an action is a beautiful thing or a sin.If I see a man on the street and shoot him down, just for the pleasure of watching him die, I am vile.If I am a trained officer of the law and I see a man draw a gun on an unarmed victim and I shoot him, it's completely different.If I see a beautiful woman walking and I desire her and take her by force, I am vile. If I court her, we fall in love and we marry, sweet mutual intimacy should follow.
The Nehor Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I guess everyone's experience is different, but I've seen very little "monomania" about godhood amongst the LDS. They seem, in the main, to be more concerned about what they can do in the here and now than dreaming about "future power". The LDS people I've actually discussed this with seem to have the same attitude as me, which is, "I really can't picture myself as a god, but if God says it could happen someday, I'll just have to trust Him. Anyway, I've got too much to do to really be concerned about it."The "monomania about godhood" seems to come from the critics of the church, in my experience.I agree with you that the problem is rare. I have seen it though and I think a warning against it is a good thing. Joseph mentioned it shouldn't be discussed often. Critics of course blow it out of proportion into an epidemic just like everything else they've seen one or two people doing that they dislike. It's called fault-finding. It seems to be a past-time of many critics. I would suggest they take a prophet's advice and switch the target of their fault-finding to someone closer to home.
BCSpace Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses?There is a big difference between actually trying to usurp God's power and having it offered to you as a gift/reward/inheritance/natural progression. Revelation 3:21 says we will sit in God's throne. Philippians 2:5-6 says it should be in our minds, like it was in Jesus' mind, that we can be equal with God etc. etc. Theosis is indeed a Biblical and early orthodox Christian doctrine.
Lareliw Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 What is your definition of theosis? And Revlations 3:21 from my reading says we will sit in God's throne with Him, which could also be taken to mean not sitting as equals, but rather under His protection.There is a big difference between actually trying to usurp God's power and having it offered to you as a gift/reward/inheritance/natural progression. Revelation 3:21 says we will sit in God's throne. Philippians 2:5-6 says it should be in our minds, like it was in Jesus' mind, that we can be equal with God etc. etc. Theosis is indeed a Biblical and early orthodox Christian doctrine.
Lareliw Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 I haven't heard that quote by Augustine before, I will have to research that a bit Where is the idea of Divine Council found, I do not remember reading it in the Bible. Not saying it isn't there, just that I don't remember it offhand!!I think the problem is that Satan attempted to overthrow God. He didn't just want to be one of many gods under God in the divine council, but wanted the throne for himself. This is how many Christians interpret Isaiah 14 as regarding Lucifer.God has no problem with us becoming as He is, as long as we do it on His terms.In fact, many of the early Christian fathers spoke of man becoming as God is. St Augustine wrote: "God became man so that man might become a god". Now, there are differences in how each one views theosis (becoming god), but in general the concept is still there.
DarkScythe Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Lucifer's sin is becoming greater than God, for good or ill. The only thing he cared about is power. Never about his brothers or sisters.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 What is your definition of theosis? And Revlations 3:21 from my reading says we will sit in God's throne with Him, which could also be taken to mean not sitting as equals, but rather under His protection.1 John 3:2 also clarifies what it means... it means becoming 'like' God, essentially.
Lareliw Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 Becoming like something can really be vague if you think about it. It means similar but not the same. A lot to noodle around with!1 John 3:2 also clarifies what it means... it means becoming 'like' God, essentially.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Becoming like something can really be vague if you think about it. It means similar but not the same. A lot to noodle around with!Hmmm... what about Galatian 4:7, or Romans 8:17? And John 10:34 as well (although there are some interpretation difficulties with this one depending on context).But I do ask, why are you concerned about this?
Steadfast Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I honestly was not sure what to put as to the title of this. Forgive me if it is not as coherent as a I wish, but as I have said before I have recently had foot surgery, have much pain from it, so I am not functioning 100% just yet My question is this: I was thinking about the great battle in Heaven, when Lucifer, the Morning Star of God, fell with the other angels that sided with him. He was cast out of Heaven because He desired to usurp the power that is God's alone, and become like God himself. I was thinking back to the statement, I'm sorry i can't remember who made it, of "as man is, God once was; as God is, man will be" or something of that nature, and combining the two thought patterns in my mind scared me a bit. If Lucifer, who was a prized Angel of God, was thrown from Heaven and fell for trying to usurp God's power and become as God is, what on earth does God think about the LDS doctrine that basically states that this same thing "becoming a god/goddess" shall occur post-resurrection, if certain conditions are met? If He unseated and threw Lucifer down to Hades, what will become of us if we would think (God forbid) about uspring that right that only God possesses? I am really interested in responses, and I will be back as much as I can. Also please keep me in your prayers for my silly foot We are the offspring of God. He loves us so much. God wants his children to become like Him. Becoming like God doesn't entail usurping His power. God wants to share all that he has with us, and to sit on His throne with Him. It's up to us to let Him do for us what He wants so much to do.I don't know if you're a parent, but if you are, you probably want your children to grow and progress and mature in much the same ways that you have. That doesn't mean that they will usurp your position.
Calm Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Where is the idea of Divine Council found, I do not remember reading it in the Bible. Not saying it isn't there, just that I don't remember it offhand!!Probably the nonLDS individual best known for teaching the idea has a website here: http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/David Bokovoy (LDS) has had a number of posts discussing the Divine Council, I suggest doing a search on his name for lots of good info.Also here are three articles from Michael Heiser (the one in the first link) and David discussing one case of biblical mention (starts with the "You've seen One Elohim..." article): http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=
Lareliw Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 I have no idea TAO! Something about the notion of becoming like God to meaning becoming a god yourself just feels...wrong? I guess that's the best way that I could describe it, is that it just doesn't sit. As far as the OP, I was reading in the Bible and thought I would ask Hmmm... what about Galatian 4:7, or Romans 8:17? And John 10:34 as well (although there are some interpretation difficulties with this one depending on context).But I do ask, why are you concerned about this?
Lareliw Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 Great, thank you! Tagged these so that I am able to read them when I have time! Probably the nonLDS individual best known for teaching the idea has a website here: http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/David Bokovoy (LDS) has had a number of posts discussing the Divine Council, I suggest doing a search on his name for lots of good info.Also here are three articles from Michael Heiser (the one in the first link) and David discussing one case of biblical mention (starts with the "You've seen One Elohim..." article): http://maxwellinstit...ol=19&num=1&id=
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