Getting the Priesthood by proxy, if you are deceased

[Duncan]

There are saving ordinances in our Church, baptism, confirmation, endowments and marriage all of which we do for deceased persons in the Temple. What about getting the men the Priesthood? Isn't that a saving ordinance? If it isn't do dead men get it in the next life?if they don't then why not? if they do then why do we do these other ordinances here?

[rpn]

When baptisms are done by proxy, after confirmation men are ordained to the priesthood.

[LeSellers]

There are saving ordinances in our Church, baptism, confirmation, endowments and marriage all of which we do for deceased persons in the Temple. What about getting the men the Priesthood? Isn't that a saving ordinance? If it isn't do dead men get it in the next life?if they don't then why not? if they do then why do we do these other ordinances here?

Yes, the dead are ordained as Elders in the Temple.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

When baptisms are done by proxy, after confirmation men are ordained to the priesthood.

While true, this is a bit misleading, in the same sense that this may be misinterpreted:

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The ordination is not part of, nor does it come immediately after, the confirmation. There may be weeks or months intervening.

Lehi

[LDS Guy 1986]

Yes, the dead are ordained as Elders in the Temple.

Lehi

CFR, I have never heard of proxy ordination into the priesthood. I have just been ordained and elder myself so it probably is simple ignorance I was just wondering what you had for doctrinal evidence to support this?

[LeSellers]

CFR, I have never heard of proxy ordination into the priesthood. I have just been ordained and elder myself so it probably is simple ignorance I was just wondering what you had for doctrinal evidence to support this?

I've been performing Temple work for 44 years. I'm pretty well familiar with what goes on there and its sequence.

Lehi

[LDS Guy 1986]

I've been performing Temple work for 44 years. I'm pretty well familiar with what goes on there and its sequence.

Lehi

I have performed proxy work as well within the scope that I am allowed currently and have never heard once of anyone being conferred the priesthood by proxy so I was asking for doctrinal support for the policy.

I am not doubting that it does happen I was just asking for you to support the claim with proper references for my benefit.

Thanks.

[Pahoran]

CFR, I have never heard of proxy ordination into the priesthood. I have just been ordained and elder myself so it probably is simple ignorance I was just wondering what you had for doctrinal evidence to support this?

I don't think I can give you a reference, but I assure you that it does happen. I'll probably be performing about thirty such ordinations myself tomorrow evening.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't think I can give you a reference, but I assure you that it does happen. I'll probably be performing about thirty such ordinations myself tomorrow evening.

Regards,

Pahoran

Thanks for the assurances and like I said I don't doubt that it does happen I was asking for official support for the claim though, not second hand.

Do you have the handbook that mentions it?

The official prayer used for the ordination?

anything at all?

[LeSellers]

I have performed proxy work as well within the scope that I am allowed currently and have never heard once of anyone being conferred the priesthood by proxy so I was asking for doctrinal support for the policy.

I am not doubting that it does happen I was just asking for you to support the claim with proper references for my benefit.

Board rules prohibit Temple content. Please be assured that it happens, it happens (sometimes long) after confirmation, and that, even long preceding the 1978 lifting of the Priesthood ban, it was done for all men of every race.

Lehi

[ERMD]

I have performed proxy work as well within the scope that I am allowed currently and have never heard once of anyone being conferred the priesthood by proxy so I was asking for doctrinal support for the policy.

I am not doubting that it does happen I was just asking for you to support the claim with proper references for my benefit.

Thanks.

And where do you think such "proper references" may be found?

Are you aware that some things done in the temple are not found in church handbooks or the Standard Works?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Board rules prohibit Temple content. Please be assured that it happens, it happens (sometimes long) after confirmation, and that, even long preceding the 1978 lifting of the Priesthood ban, it was done for all men of every race.

Lehi

I am not asking for temple content on the board but a link so I can find the reference to your claim. Without reference I am skeptical of the claim since I have never heard it taught at any time in the church.

Added by Edit:

It is also against the rules (and a banable offense) to present claims without providing a source also.

[LDS Guy 1986]

And where do you think such "proper references" may be found?

Are you aware that some things done in the temple are not found in church handbooks or the Standard Works?

I have yet to see a ordinance done that wasn't referenced in some way in a church publication, I am not asking for the entire ceremony spelled out from beginning to end just an official reference to the fact that the church ordains the deceased to the priesthood. I was always thought that only the living are ordained to the priesthood. I have no problem being corrected but you need something more official than "I assure you".

[Pahoran]

I have yet to see a ordinance done that wasn't referenced in some way in a church publication, I am not asking for the entire ceremony spelled out from beginning to end just an official reference to the fact that the church ordains the deceased to the priesthood. I was always thought that only the living are ordained to the priesthood. I have no problem being corrected but you need something more official than "I assure you".

Well, I believe I may be able to help you out, but it will be in the manner of giving you some homework. Let me ask you two questions: are you endowed, and do you have a current Temple Recommend?

Regards,

Pahoran

[ERMD]

Here's the equivalent of what you are asking:

There is a ram's horn in the temple (fact).

Show me a printed reference available to the general church membership that states this.

You will not find one. Does that make it untrue or suspect? Does that mean that if someone states it, then he is mistaken or needs to prove it somehow?

Some things we learn with time and experience.

How about this--the next time you go to the temple, ask to speak to a member of the temple presidency. He will be happy to give you an answer, but he is unlikely to show you anything printed in a handbook to prove it to you.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Here's the equivalent of what you are asking:

There is a ram's horn in the temple (fact).

Show me a printed reference available to the general church membership that states this.

You will not find one. Does that make it untrue or suspect? Does that mean that if someone states it, then he is mistaken or needs to prove it somehow?

Some things we learn with time and experience.

I am not asking about a decoration but a ordinance performed in the temple. As I have said before I have yet to hear about any ordinance being performed that isn't at least mentioned even if it is only mentioned by name only with no further detail in a publication from the church. Of course in time I can find the truth for myself and maybe that will have to be the case if no one wants to find a source like they are suppose to.

How about this--the next time you go to the temple, ask to speak to a member of the temple presidency. He will be happy to give you an answer, but he is unlikely to show you anything printed in a handbook to prove it to you.

But you are not my temple president and he has not made a claim on this forum without any reference or source and tried to get me to accept it on there unknown word.

That is not how the Church operates we don't tell people trust me we give them the information they need and allow them to study, ponder, and pray about it.

If you won't or can't give my the source then that's all you need to say, just don't expect me to believe something because you (someone who I don't know at all) or others here assure me.

[LeSellers]

Do you have the handbook that mentions it?

The official prayer used for the ordination?

anything at all?

All of the things you ask for are held in Temples and are not available outside them. The copies of "official" prayers I had access to in the Temples were clearly marked "Do Not Duplicate", and I believe I'll adhere to that request.

Lehi

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Yes, men are ordained as elders in the temple immediately prior to the initiatory ordinances. I suspect it is referred to somewhere, maybe Packer's "The Holy Temple," but I'm not going to go digging for a reference when I've been involved in hundreds of such ordinances myself. It's common knowledge. Any endowed active temple attending male member can easily confirm this. I'm fairly certain that board rules would not require me to cite something to back up a statement such as "the sun rises around 7:00 AM this time of year." Common knowledge is exempt from a CFR.'

EDIT: It's also interesting to note that Pres. Woodruff vicariously ordained some of the founding fathers (George Washington and Ben Franklin, IIRC) as High Priests instead of elders.

[cinepro]

Sheesh guys. It's not that hard!

A person serving as a proxy for baptisms and confirmations must be at least twelve years of age; must have been baptized; if male, must hold the priesthood; and must have a current Temple Recommend or be listed on a current Limited-Use Recommend.

*

A person serving as a proxy for ordinations to the Melchizedek Priesthood, endowments, or sealings must be endowed and have a current Temple Recommend.

---------------------------------------------------

If possible, contact the temple to schedule times to complete the ordinances listed below, except for the endowment, which may be performed anytime the temple is open.

Ordinances are completed in the following sequence:

- Baptism and confirmation

- Ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men)

- Endowment

- Sealing

The marriage sealing follows the endowment. A couple

[LDS Guy 1986]

All of the things you ask for are held in Temples and are not available outside them. The copies of "official" prayers I had access to in the Temples were clearly marked "Do Not Duplicate", and I believe I'll adhere to that request.

Lehi

Ok, that's fine, I do not expect someone to duplicate something that says do not duplicate.

Your statement though that things in the temple are not available outside is wrong though, the church publishes pamphlets and books all the time like http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=1703cb7a29c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=1bb45f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD that has photos and explanations of the ordinances that take place inside the temple without revealing the sacred rites of these ordinances.

No materials I have read inside or outside the church has made reference to the proxy priesthood, as far as I know there is no space in the temple I attend to perform such a proxy ordinance unless it takes place in the presidents office. We have a baptismal, confirmation room, endowment room and 2 sealing rooms, there is not priesthood ordination room that I know of in my temple nor any reference in any materials to proxy priesthood.

So naturally I am skeptical, as I have said I very well am wrong but this "I assure you" attitude is not in line with Church doctrine or with forum rules.

If a source cannot be supplied or will not be supplied that all I need to know.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Yes, men are ordained as elders in the temple immediately prior to the initiatory ordinances. I suspect it is referred to somewhere, maybe Packer's "The Holy Temple," but I'm not going to go digging for a reference when I've been involved in hundreds of such ordinances myself. It's common knowledge. Any endowed active temple attending male member can easily confirm this. I'm fairly certain that board rules would not require me to cite something to back up a statement such as "the sun rises around 7:00 AM this time of year." Common knowledge is exempt from a CFR.

Not for someone that has never heard of such a thing, so you are wrong, the sunrise is common knowledge becaues we can all see it. Something that is so far unmentioned is not common knowledge and the Church is against making anyone accept anything without a proper source and allowing someone the ability to study, ponder, and pray about new things.

That is all that I am asking for.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Thanks, cinepro. I figured it was mentioned somewhere, I just think the attitude of "prove it to me" on something that is (was?) seemingly common knowledge is silly. Is/was there any reason to distrust the answer of several LDS posters on the board that have had so much personal experience with it?

BTW, There is no "ordination" room, but your list of rooms in the temple is incomplete and that may explain why you're not seeing where/when it happens.

[ERMD]

I am not asking about a decoration but a ordinance performed in the temple. As I have said before I have yet to hear about any ordinance being performed that isn't at least mentioned even if it is only mentioned by name only with no further detail in a publication from the church. Of course in time I can find the truth for myself and maybe that will have to be the case if no one wants to find a source like they are suppose to.

But you are not my temple president and he has not made a claim on this forum without any reference or source and tried to get me to accept it on there unknown word.

That is not how the Church operates we don't tell people trust me we give them the information they need and allow them to study, ponder, and pray about it.

If you won't or can't give my the source then that's all you need to say, just don't expect me to believe something because you (someone who I don't know at all) or others here assure me.

It is not a decoration, but rather a part of the symbolism of an ordinance performed in the temple.

I did not claim to be your temple president. When one has questions about what occurs in the temple, that is the source to whom one should turn--not a discussion board.

Your continued persistence in this merely digs your hole deeper.

[bookofmormontruth]

Ok, that's fine, I do not expect someone to duplicate something that says do not duplicate.

Your statement though that things in the temple are not available outside is wrong though, the church publishes pamphlets and books all the time like http://lds.org/ldsor...0004d82620aRCRD that has photos and explanations of the ordinances that take place inside the temple without revealing the sacred rites of these ordinances.

No materials I have read inside or outside the church has made reference to the proxy priesthood, as far as I know there is no space in the temple I attend to perform such a proxy ordinance unless it takes place in the presidents office. We have a baptismal, confirmation room, endowment room and 2 sealing rooms, there is not priesthood ordination room that I know of in my temple nor any reference in any materials to proxy priesthood.

So naturally I am skeptical, as I have said I very well am wrong but this "I assure you" attitude is not in line with Church doctrine or with forum rules.

If a source cannot be supplied or will not be supplied that all I need to know.

cinepro just referenced it.

I have done it a few times also and it makes sense to do all the saving ordinances.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Sheesh guys. It's not that hard!

Thank you very much cinepro for that source from lds.org so I can have an official source to reference. You are a great help to me and a blessing, I only wish that others here were as helpful a Latter-day Saint as you were.

I retract my previous statements now that I have official sources, I humbly apologize for any inconvenience I caused. I simply needed a source and thank the good brother who provided me with such.

I am truly embarrassed that after 6 years of membership in the Church that I didn't know about this, but we all have to learn sometime!

Once again thank you cinepro for the help!