Ceeboo Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,Ceeboo
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Ceeboo:We all see through that glass darkly. This life is to be a trial of our faith. Not a trial of what we already "know" in any absolute sense of the word.Ps. Welcome back.
SilverKnight Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Hi Ceeboo,The logical conclusion is that is impossible to 'know' empirically if matters of religious faith are 'true' or not.Every time you hear a religious person say they 'know' something about their faith/religion/god, you can substitute the term 'strongly believe' for a more accurate statement.Also, what we 'know' can always change with new information/experiences.
Ceeboo Posted March 2, 2011 Author Posted March 2, 2011 Every time you hear a religious person say they 'know' something about their faith/religion/god, you can substitute the term 'strongly believe' for a more accurate statement.Hey Silver,I think you may be right (If you are right, this would help in explaining the possible change that some seem to have regarding what they 'know')Anyhooo, thanks for the reply.Peace,Ceeboo
nicolasconnault Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,CeebooCeeboo, this is a matter of epistemology, so it depends how you define "knowledge". The degree of confidence that someone has in something doesn't change the truth of that thing. You know that tomorrow the sun will rise, despite the possibility that it might not. You know that your body is made up of cells despite not having seen one of those cells yourself. As SilverKnight said, when we say we know something, it really means that we have a very strong belief in it.
Jason Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Ultimately it is impossible to "know" ANYTHING with absolute certainty. So we have to settle for less than absolute certainty in order to do anything worthwhile.
zerinus Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,CeebooWhat somebody else "knows" or doesn't know means nothing to you until YOU "know".
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Setting the table:My former housemate when he got married knew that he had obtained the most lovely woman in our stake.This very same person is no longer with her and now 'knows' that she's perfectly horrible.Question:Why did my former housemate decide he'd been wrong about what he thought he knew?Is what he knows now the truth?Do your answers change upon learning the following:She didn't change. At all. I've known her longer than he has. She's still lovely and kind and thoughtful. Just last night, she sent me a TXT checking on the health of my mum and sister because she knows they've both been unwell, one of them seriously. When they booked marriage counselling sessions, she'd end up going by herself because he never showed up once.He, when he left, cashed out their joint bank account, took all the money, leaving her destitute, and used it to buy himself an imported Japanese sports car on top of his four-wheel drive. When her car died a few months later, leaving her and the baby with no transport, she had to take out a loan to get a second-hand car. She asked him for a lift one morning, and he told her it was 'inconvenient.'
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Oh, and in answer to the thread topic: Yes!As others have already pointed out, knowledge is inevitably incomplete, but I know this one with greater confidence than I know anything else. I consider that a miracle of the highest order.
jadams_4242 Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,Ceeboo dont comprehend how anyone whom "knows" can now not know; cause i "know" from experiances {many}.....wwaaaayyyy too many and powerfull to deny. and they continue as i grow stronger and more obedient, even if i were to quit seeking and purposely try to seek wrong in this church i would not ever be able to deny confirmations i have received to date.. it just could not happen. my confirmations have been beyond emotion,mentality,wishing,coincedance or anything else..
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I used to know Pluto was a planet.Now I know it's not.What's up with that?Everybody used to know the sun went around the earth.Now everybody knows the earth goes around the sun.I guess truth has a habit of changing. That's because it's always based on a context, and contexts change. Truth is not about "reality" whatever that is, it is about language, which also changes.
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Hi Ceeboo,The logical conclusion is that is impossible to 'know' empirically if matters of religious faith are 'true' or not.Every time you hear a religious person say they 'know' something about their faith/religion/god, you can substitute the term 'strongly believe' for a more accurate statement.Also, what we 'know' can always change with new information/experiences.Yep.All "I know" means is "I am certain". You can be certain about all kinds of things which are false.
TAO Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,CeebooBecause to 'know' is a subjective thing, it can change based on life experiences.IMO, we won't know unless an angel himself comes to reveal it to us, or the Second Coming happens. But although we won't know, we certainly will trust, and have faith. For trusting and having faith are precursors for obtaining an experience which allows you to truly know. As said, 'Faith is believing in things which are true, but cannot be seen'. We can't see it yet, but once we will, it will no longer be faith - it will be knowledge. =)Best Wishes,TAO
Bernard Gui Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Every time you hear a religious person say they 'know' something about their faith/religion/god, you can substitute the term 'strongly believe' for a more accurate statement.How do you know that? You must have unusual perceptive powers.Bernard
Bernard Gui Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 He, when he left, cashed out their joint bank account, took all the money, leaving her destitute, and used it to buy himself an imported Japanese sports car on top of his four-wheel drive. When her car died a few months later, leaving her and the baby with no transport, she had to take out a loan to get a second-hand car. She asked him for a lift one morning, and he told her it was 'inconvenient.'Seemed ok to me until you got to the part about buying a Japanese sports car. Something wrong with that guy.Bernard
Obiwan Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I would say that people who thought they "knew" previously never really did.I would say that their knowledge was based on what they saw as good and beneficial and making sense, a very strong belief, but not sure knowledge. Of course, if it is true that with every fiber of their being, their minds and feelings, in every single aspect of the Church, some do/did in fact "know" to to be true, and then now "know" it to be false, then I would say that they have been deceived and/or using incomplete and flawed standards of judgment of things.It's not so easy to judge every single former believer as to the "degree" of their belief, or knowledge. So, until we know that, it's not such a simple thing to say someone knew before it was true and now know it to be false. Of course, it is possible that in what knowledge someone does possess, they did in fact with every fiber knew it to be true, and then now know it to be false because of a little more knowledge. Again, that seems more like a flaw in their judgment system. They should learn to not be so quick in judgments, because they don't realize (I know from experience and observation) that their might be actually even MORE TRUTH and Facts which would "reconvert" them.I know that for myself when I was a basic believing mormon I believed in it, knowing much of it to be true and good, but I didn't fully know if it entirely and in full was actually true. When I was an anti-mormon, I believed it was another man-made religion per my perceived issues with it, but I don't think at the time I ever believed "I knew" it to be false. After all, I wasn't one of the greatest scholars on the planet, knowing very well being honest with myself that I hadn't yet done deep and detailed scholarship like said scholars. Well learned and experienced, but I knew much more could be done. Thus, I couldn't say I "knew" it to be false.I now "know" without a shadow of a doubt in ANY respect, with full surety and truth, that it is indeed the True Church on the earth. At this stage of my intellectual growth, I wouldn't be a part of it or any religion unless it was the real deal.
Libs Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I have "known" a lot of things, in the course of my life, that turned out not to be true.When I was sixteen, I knew absolutely everything. By the time I turned sixty, I knew almost nothing. Seriously, I agree with just about everything that has been said here. Sometimes we really do think we know something, until we get new information that changes that. And other times, maybe, we really do "know" something, but cannot prove it to others, because the evidence is subjective (spiritual or intuitive).
Mute Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Hey Y'all (Missed you )I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.Setting the table:One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.Question:How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?And can what they 'know' now change again?Peace,CeebooThis used to bother me a lot when people in church would say they knew the lds faith was true. It seemed like they were trying to convince themselves more than others. I never understood why they didn't just say I strongly believe. Does it some how make it better to say I know? The lds faith is the only faith that does say you can actually know though. The question is do 99% of these people who say they know actually know? My opinion is that they do not know but they believe it. If the lds faith is true, does anyone know it's true? I don't know but I would say the vast majority of those who say they know it do not know.
paulpatter Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Hey Silver,I think you may be right (If you are right, this would help in explaining the possible change that some seem to have regarding what they 'know')Anyhooo, thanks for the reply.Peace,CeebooPerhaps you won't mind if I offer a reply. When you are young and healthy, almost anything seems possible--and oh, the uncountable things you "know!" As you age, however, your perspective necessarily changes. The disappointments and setbacks pile up, in matters both secular and religious: some friends prove untrue, you lose your job, you develop pains in places you didn't know you had, you discover that some of the things you were told in Primary were factually incorrect, your answers to the BIG QUESTIONS (where did I come from, why am I here, where am I going, etc.)--which you once answered with confidence and authority--become less than forthright. In sum, the hard realities of mortal life take their toll, and what you once "knew," you no longer know. It's called the "loss of innocence."
blackstrap Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 The Devil and his minions "know" that Jesus is the Christ. They just don't care.We are told that by the Holy Ghost we can know the truthfulness of all things. To deny the Holy Ghost is to say that the sun does not shine at midday etc. "Knowing " can have its hazards.
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 In sum, the hard realities of mortal life take their toll, and what you once "knew," you no longer know. It's called the "loss of innocence."'But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein' (Luke 18:16-17).
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 IMO, we won't know unless an angel himself comes to reveal it to us....If you were to see an angel, how would you know that the experience was real?
paulpatter Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 'But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein' (Luke 18:16-17).How many people do you know in their 40s, 50s, 60s who "receive the kingdom of God as a little child"?
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Hey Silver,I think the correct salutation would be "Hi-yo Silver"Get it right next time.
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 How many people do you know in their 40s, 50s, 60s who "receive the kingdom of God as a little child"?Personally? It would be in the hundreds for sure. As a missionary, I worked with a woman in her 60s who exemplified this commandment for me. If anything, the burdens of her mortal life were lifted from her as she embraced the Restored Gospel, and she became innocent and pure like a littl child.In a previous area, my companion and I helped a cantankerous old lady return to activity, and she became once again filled with life and wonder and excitement just like a little child.When I was very young, our mean old neighbour joined the Church in his 80s, and it softened him up into the sweetest old man.When I was a deacon, our stake patriarch, then also in his 80s, used to take us on a six-day backpack camp each year, and one could hardly tell the difference between him and us 12 and 13 year olds.And yes, I'm talking about their 'faith' in all of this, too.And I haven't even got to some of the people in my current ward who possess heartfelt, childlike faith.
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