Do you REALLY know?

[mfbukowski]

Truth is revealed, and can only be known by revelation.

I could agree with that. No God, no man, no culture, no truth. So in a sense all truth is from God. I'm ok with that. One could also say that all truth comes from Man, since God is human.

[Monster]

All I know is that I know nothing - Socrates

[mfbukowski]

All I know is that I know nothing - Socrates

CFR.

I don't know where to find that quote

[Calm]

But in answer to your above statement, I think that all religions claims that you can "know," but their way of "knowing" is different.

I would tend to agree (at least that most have ways they claim will allow someone to "know"), which is why I would like Mute to clarify what he believes and provide sources if he means it as exclusively as he first wrote it.

[Obiwan]

I think we find whatever truth we are looking for.

I agree.... I was looking for the truth, if there really was or wasn't a "True Church" on the earth, and because of my Faith and Humility, I found out the truth. There literally is.... It's the real deal!

[zerinus]

I could agree with that. No God, no man, no culture, no truth. So in a sense all truth is from God. I'm ok with that. One could also say that all truth comes from Man, since God is human.

God is not human, God is divine. God gives the Holy Spirit to man, man does not give the Holy Spirit to God. Man is dependent on God, God is not dependent on anything. Man knows the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost from God, God does not know the truth by the Holy Ghost from man. The Holy Spirit is also called the "Spirit of truth" and the "Spirit of God," it is not called the "spirit of man". Jesus is the light which "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9); man has no light of himself, and cannot "light" anything in the world or out of the world. "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things" (D&C 93:28). That Spirit is the gift of God to man, not the gift of man to God. It is the Spirit of God that "giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and . . . enlighteneth every man through the world that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit" (D&C 84:46); it is not the other way round.

[zerinus]

I think we find whatever truth we are looking for.

I think people find whatever falsehood they are looking for too.

[zerinus]

CFR.

I don't know where to find that quote

Easy. It took me a couple of seconds on Google to find it. Try either one of these links:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Socrates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

[mfbukowski]

God is not human, God is divine. God gives the Holy Spirit to man, man does not give the Holy Spirit to God. Man is dependent on God, God is not dependent on anything. Man knows the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost from God, God does not know the truth by the Holy Ghost from man. The Holy Spirit is also called the "Spirit of truth" and the "Spirit of God," it is not called the "spirit of man". Jesus is the light which "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9); man has no light of himself, and cannot "light" anything in the world or out of the world. "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things" (D&C 93:28). That Spirit is the gift of God to man, not the gift of man to God. It is the Spirit of God that "giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and . . . enlighteneth every man through the world that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit" (D&C 84:46); it is not the other way round.

I do not disagree with anything you said except the implication that humans cannot be divine. You contradict your self in referring to Christ as divine if men cannot be divine.

I never said any of the other things you are implying I did. Of course we get everything we have from the MAN OF HOLINESS, and his son, the SON OF MAN

What I did say is that our culture comes from them. That is clearly true. Adam linguistically gave names to everything- under God's direction and instruction- and that, sir, is giving us language and culture.

[mfbukowski]

I think people find whatever falsehood they are looking for too.

Unquestionably

[mfbukowski]

Easy. It took me a couple of seconds on Google to find it. Try either one of these links:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Socrates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

Yes I know.

The entire point is that the meaning of that phrase is not what it appears to be, nor meaning what it was quoted to mean by the person who quoted it, who does not understand Socrates at all.

Ignorance is not bliss.

Meaning

The impreciseness of the English translation stems from the fact that the author is not saying that he does not know anything but means instead that one cannot know anything with absolute certainty but can feel confident about certain things.

As for me, all I know is that I know nothing, for when I don't know what justice is, I'll hardly know whether it is a kind of virtue or not, or whether a person who has it is happy or unhappy.

o Republic, 354b, (conclusion of book I)

This shows that it was quoted out of context.

Thanks for depriving me of my teaching moment.

Socrates is more of a legend than anything. All we know of him is what Plato wrote about him- he actually appears more as a character in Plato's writing than anything else

[SkepticTheist]

Because, knowing by way of the Holy Ghost as a testimony is a spiritual gift that can be lost. It is something that gives you a surety at the time you have it. Once it withdraws because you allow yourself to doubt, the giver of the gift, the Holy Ghost, withdraws, and so does the spiritual gift that he gave you. You are left to yourself to be consumed by some other spirit which gives you another spiritual gift of false knowledge, an overconfidence in the idea that you now know of a surety to the contrary.

Literally, these spiritual gifts are to be under the spell of a certain type of spirit. If you are under the influence, or "spell" so to speak, of the Holy Ghost, then you have a confidence and surety and peace at the time in what has been revealed to you by that spirit. When the negative testimony comes when the Holy Ghost withdraws, you then are under the spell of the evil one, and are under a false sense of confidence.

This is why, when people bear testimony saying that they know, they are expressing confidence that the influence on them is the Spirit of truth, and that the Spirit of Truth is conveying them a sense that what has been revealed to them is correct. It doesn't mean that they have absolute knowledge, or that this spiritual gift should even be considered to be "knowledge" in the classical sense. Rather, it is a confidence given by a spirit to the heart that can be lost.

Those that say that they don't have this confidence are not under the "Spell" of the spirit of truth, and need to do whatever it takes to get it for the first time, or to get it back.

I'm not saying that it is a magic trick, but I am using the word "spell" in a similar sense, because it is literally to be possessed by, or under the influence of a type of spirit in the very same sense that someone can be said to be under a "spell".

We often think of possession by a spirit in the classical sense of having that spirit control what we do and say, and that it controls our wills or something.

But we do not often think of possession in the sense of having it affect our attitudes and our feelings, and having it prompt and guide us, to the degree that we are convinced that it is our own ideas or our own words. Being under the spell of the Holy Ghost with a testimony is to be possessed by it, to be under its influence, and to be led by it. Those that speak words under the influence of the holy Ghost oftentimes don't realize it because it is so subtle. The spirit of the devil is just as subtle to the degree that those that are possessed by it believe they are entirely rational and under control of their own thought processes.

This is the danger of allowing one's self to loose the spirit, and how critical it is to act in a manner that the Spirit can continue to bless you with this influence. Because sooner or later, after the spirit withdraws, the gift leaves. It doesn't take sin in the classical sense to lose it. It can be unbelief and doubt too. Which explains why so many people lose their testimonies when they never reportedly did anything wrong in the sense of transgression other than start doubting.

Korihor had a false testimony, because he was possessed of a lying spirit, and it led him to have overconfidence in something incorrect. It was a false testimony. He was under its spell:

" thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God." (Alma 30:42)

At certain points in my life, I have been possessed by the Spirit of Elijah, to the point of being obsessed about temple work. I was literally sleeping and eating and dreaming temple work. And it didn't subside until I was done with the work that I was engaged in at the time. It was a special manifestation to me and a special gift from God to me to realize that I was consumed by that Spirit. I loved it. I am currently a Temple Worker and am under the spell of not being able to want to be away from the temple for very long. I am consumed by that spell, so to speak, and I give myself over to it. it is really something else to realize that you are under this influence and to have it overcome you to the point that you would feel an extreme void without it.

This is why it is incomprehensible to people outside the Church how apologists can believe what they believe and defend what they defend. Because when the scriptures say things are spiritually discerned, the logic and the reasoning doesn't always make sense about the truth until the spirit of truth possesses someone to allow that type of discernment. To try to convey that to someone else that is not possessed by that same spirit is futile.

This is why, all of us are in danger. This is why we have overconfidence in ourselves if we think we are strong enough to stand on our own. Because the moment we allow ourselves to doubt the fundamental truth of this work, we are in danger of losing our spiritual gift of testimony, even if we don't transgress. And once we are given over to the false spiritual gift, the false testimony, suddenly that which was absolutely clear to us before is foolishness, and we wonder how we could have been so blind to believe in that Mormon stuff. And then at that point, if we are in denial that we are under the influence of a different spirit, and thus have different attitudes, because Satan lies to us saying there is no devil, at that point we are in an awful state, because we are in denial of all things spiritual, both negative and positive, both good and evil, and are not able to discern the awful state we are in, and the awful danger that we are in because we cannot at that point dig ourselves out because of that lack of discernment. That is spiritual blindness, to be possessed by the spirit of a false testimony.

This is why the Book of Mormon is the key to conversion. Because it is true that the Book of Mormon is true. It is also true that the Bible is true. But the Book of Mormon is a spiritual implement in the very same sense as a seer stone or anything else. It has a different mission than the Bible has. Its purpose is to allow that spell of the influence of the Holy Ghost to take root. When someone allows themself to read it with true intent and to pray about it, that same spirit that gave it to us by the gift and power of God can extend its influence to the heart of that person, and can root out any influence from a false spirit that may be in that person's heart preventing them from seeing the truth.

Hey Y'all (Missed you )

I started this topic somewhere else and got very little response (perhaps that is because it is a stupid topic, I dunno) but I wanted to pose it here and see what happens.

Setting the table:

One used to be LDS and 'knew' the LDS Church was true.

This very same person is no longer LDS and now 'knows' the LDS Church is not true.

Question:

How can/does one place confidence in what they happen to 'know' now?

And can what they 'know' now change again?

Peace,

Ceeboo