ERMD Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 There are plenty of people who join/attend other churches and do not have their names removed from the church records.
Deborah Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 There are plenty of people who join/attend other churches and do not have their names removed from the church records.That's what I'm saying. It's a drastic step for a young person.
Palerider Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 What I wonder is why anyone would bother to do this at that age given that you can just become inactive. That seems a drastic step for people who are still trying to figure out what to do in life.I think this phenomenon may be much more widespread and take in a larger demographic than you think. While I was teaching Sunday School back in my believing days I had a 14 year old that left the church after losing her faith. Her father was on the high council and I made several attempts to speak to him about her welfare and was kind of dusted off as not really "knowing" his daughter the way he did. He was convinced she was solid as a rock............Surprise!
Palerider Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 That's what I'm saying. It's a drastic step for a young person.I don't know what the current handbook says but six or seven years ago my understanding was if a member attended another church in preference to their LDS ward they became eligible for excommunication or name removal.
Palerider Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on this letter? Also, how do you feel it will be received by BYU Leadership and LDS Church Leadership? http://universe.byu.edu/node/14309I think the church views as one thing the allowing of a non-member to attend BYU with the opportunity for proselyting that individual but sees a disaffected member (regardless of their moral behavior) as a distinct threat to the student body. "One bad apple" so to speak.
cinepro Posted March 2, 2011 Posted March 2, 2011 I suspect the good Brother Weiss may have recently found out more than he wanted to know about Church history.
sjdawg Posted March 2, 2011 Author Posted March 2, 2011 I think the church views as one thing the allowing of a non-member to attend BYU with the opportunity for proselyting that individual but sees a disaffected member (regardless of their moral behavior) as a distinct threat to the student body. "One bad apple" so to speak.I think that is precisely the issue. One is a prospective member and one is a threat. I don't a gree with it but I do think that is the issue.
Cold Steel Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 ... However, the university has removed students who change their religious status from being LDS to any other religion or non-religion. In fact, the religious status page online tells these individuals not to change religious status through the registration office, but to start the process at the Honor Code office. I personally know some people who have lost faith in the LDS religion and then have not been allowed to continue their schooling. These are good men and women who still live the Honor Code but are either kicked out or not allowed to renew their Ecclesiastical Endorsements because they felt they should be honest about their unbelief. ...This is not a new issue, and it's been raised countless times. One's membership in the LDS church is irrevocably tied with covenants, and covenants are irrevocably tied to honor. In the last days, we're told that people would fail to grasp this; that we would be covenant breakers. But another key aspect of this is the simple fact that parents don't send their kids to college to be exposed to people who are likely to expose their children to doubt and apostasy.Apostates have long shown themselves to be unable to just leave the church. They invariably want to draw others into their beliefs as a means of refortifying them. One need only visit the forums of apostates to see the vicious, mean, petty, impassioned and relentless nature they often show. Apostasy is considered by church authorities (and rightly so, I think) to be a mark of dishonor. They can, and do, seek many times to undermine the church however they can. If I were a parent whose son or daughter decided to leave the church after being exposed to such a person, or people, I would write a nasty letter to University leaders telling them if I wanted my kids exposed to virulent anti-Mormonism, the I would have sent them to a secular college. Baptism and endowment covenants aren't things that should be dismissed casually, and apostates shouldn't be treated the same as non-members. When I attended BYU, I dropped the dime on a returned missionary whose girlfriend dropped in for overnight visits. We were off-campus, and there were six people in the apartment. I intended only for them to be expelled from the premises, but it went to the college authorities and I don't know what happened. It was unfortunate, but it went on for too long and the girl was competing for the bathrooms and sinks. He must have figured out that someone squealed, but if we remove "honor" from "the honor code," we have a code that is meaningless..
Cold Steel Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I suspect the good Brother Weiss may have recently found out more than he wanted to know about Church history. You're implying, of course, that members in good standing just don't know enough about church history or they'd be on the way out. I think that's unfair. I think it's an "honor" issue and nothing else. Weiss isn't the one who's in danger of being expelled from the university. He failed to reveal his relationship with the person, if any, but he assumes these are all "good people" being victimized by an outdated code. I see nothing that indicates that church history has anything to do with this. .
frankenstein Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 coldsteel,What convenants are made at baptism? Just using alma, the covenants is about standing as a witness of Christ, which as person can do as a non-lds person. I am just curious if maintaining LDS Church membership is a covenant made anywhere. It would also seem one could keep other covenants made in other place, even as a non-member, as keeping that specific covenant is not contigent on Church membership.
Lareliw Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I don't understand, so people who are not LDS cannot attend BYU?BYU's Honor Code states in pertinent part (emphasis added):Thanks,Smac
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 I don't understand, so people who are not LDS cannot attend BYU?No, from what I understand of the policy, non-LDS can attend, but LDS who decide to leave the LDS Church while attending are in violation of the Honor Code and can possibly be asked to leave.
Lareliw Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Why wouldn't they just be considered as "Non-LDS" students from that point forward? I mean I can understand if you are excommunicated for something serious, but to find another way to express your love for Jesus Christ seems a bit harsh to threaten to kick them out.No, from what I understand of the policy, non-LDS can attend, but LDS who decide to leave the LDS Church while attending are in violation of the Honor Code and can possibly be asked to leave.
Anijen Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Why wouldn't they just be considered as "Non-LDS" students from that point forward? I mean I can understand if you are excommunicated for something serious, but to find another way to express your love for Jesus Christ seems a bit harsh to threaten to kick them out.Like I mentioned earlier. About the BYU football player who did his first yr at BYU went on a mission came home left the church for another spoke with BYU, received another ecclesiastical endorsement from his pastor and continued at BYU. So I know LDS who leave the church still can attend BYU.
Jeff K. Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 No, from what I understand of the policy, non-LDS can attend, but LDS who decide to leave the LDS Church while attending are in violation of the Honor Code and can possibly be asked to leave.Knew a BYU student who stopped going to church in BYU, no one checked up his membership status. He also became a universalist and did receive an endorsement over the summer which was promptly sent in. He was not asked to leave. I think there is a presumption of paranoia which simply isn't there. At least not from what my wife and I experienced when we lived in Provo (the Colony for those in the know).
cinepro Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Why wouldn't they just be considered as "Non-LDS" students from that point forward? I mean I can understand if you are excommunicated for something serious, but to find another way to express your love for Jesus Christ seems a bit harsh to threaten to kick them out.It would be severe, if LDS looked at apostates as people who just "found another way to express their love for Jesus Christ".
TAO Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 It would be severe, if LDS looked at apostates as people who just "found another way to express their love for Jesus Christ".cinepro, I wouldn't refer to them as apostates... that can be taken badly.
Bernard Gui Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Does this story which just came across the wire pertain to the subject at hand?http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Dismissal-of-Brandon-Davies-threatens-BYU-s-char?urn=ncaab-328338From the article:Rising junior guard Michael Loyd Jr. also left school this past offseason when multiple speeding tickets and an arrest for underage drinking and possession came to light, later telling the Times Record News in October "the Mormon thing wasn't for me."Like he didn't know what the Mormon thing was going to be like before he signed up?And only BYU sports teams have a problem with underage drinking, possession, and reckless driving?Whole lot of rationalization going on...Bernard
todd520 Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 From the article:Like he didn't know what the Mormon thing was going to be like before he signed up?And only BYU sports teams have a problem with underage drinking, possession, and reckless driving?Whole lot of rationalization going on...Bernardtoo funny
sjdawg Posted March 3, 2011 Author Posted March 3, 2011 Apostates have long shown themselves to be unable to just leave the church. They invariably want to draw others into their beliefs as a means of refortifying them. One need only visit the forums of apostates to see the vicious, mean, petty, impassioned and relentless nature they often show. Apostasy is considered by church authorities (and rightly so, I think) to be a mark of dishonor. They can, and do, seek many times to undermine the church however they can. If I were a parent whose son or daughter decided to leave the church after being exposed to such a person, or people, I would write a nasty letter to University leaders telling them if I wanted my kids exposed to virulent anti-Mormonism, the I would have sent them to a secular college. Baptism and endowment covenants aren't things that should be dismissed casually, and apostates shouldn't be treated the same as non-members. When I attended BYU, I dropped the dime on a returned missionary whose girlfriend dropped in for overnight visits. We were off-campus, and there were six people in the apartment. I intended only for them to be expelled from the premises, but it went to the college authorities and I don't know what happened. It was unfortunate, but it went on for too long and the girl was competing for the bathrooms and sinks. He must have figured out that someone squealed, but if we remove "honor" from "the honor code," we have a code that is meaningless..I appreciate your sweet and compassionate nature.
cinepro Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 cinepro, I wouldn't refer to them as apostates... that can be taken badly.Last I heard, an LDS who joins another Church is subject to excommunication for apostasy. So even if we don't refer to them as "apostates", technically that's what they would be.This is part of the tension between wanting to be nice, and maintaining the standard of being the "only true Church". It can only be sugarcoated to a certain point.Joseph McConkie spoke on this point, about the dangers of ecumenism:Perhaps we need to rethink the idea of seeking common ground with those we desire to teach. Every similarity we identify leaves them with one less reason to join the Church. When we cease to be different, we cease to be. The commandment to flee Babylon has not been revoked,nor has it been amended to suggest that we seek an intellectual marriage with those not of our faith. The fruit of such a marriage will always be outside the covenant.
Lareliw Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 This whole attitude is what I didn't like about the Catholic church (just as an example), the superiority. I thought Jesus Christ and God were the most important things, but apparently to some folks it is the mormon church.
Jeff K. Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Jesus Christ is the most important thing, as manifested in the Church doctrine and the lives led by apostles and prophets. Unfortunately those who cannot live by the rules Christ's church has in place tend to want to compartmentalize the rules of teh atonement with the atonement itself. You cannot do this, no matter how hard you may wish to try.
sjdawg Posted March 3, 2011 Author Posted March 3, 2011 This statement is directly from the BYU Honor Code pages. When reading it I can't help but think this football player is either being given an exception or hasn't really changed religions. It seems to be a pretty black and white statementFormer LDS students are not eligible to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement (see Withdrawn Ecclesiastical Endorsement below).http://saas.byu.edu/catalog/2010-2011ucat/GeneralInfo/HonorCode.php#HCOfficeInvovement
Jeff K. Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 This statement is directly from the BYU Honor Code pages. When reading it I can't help but think this football player is either being given an exception or hasn't really changed religions. It seems to be a pretty black and white statementFormer LDS students are not eligible to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement (see Withdrawn Ecclesiastical Endorsement below).http://saas.byu.edu/catalog/2010-2011ucat/GeneralInfo/HonorCode.php#HCOfficeInvovementFrom anyone or just from their former bishops?
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