The Flood & Geologic Giants

[Rob Osborn]

Me and my family just returned from a short vacation to St. George Utah. While there we had a chance to go and look at some of the geologic features surrounding the area. A few miles northwest of town is a state park called Snow Canyon. I spent the afternoon and evening there taking a lot of pictures and gazing at the natural beauty of the giant rocks left there. One of the things that really struck me was just how big some of these rocks were. I have been to Moab and other sites around southern Utah and seen other larger giant rocks so this was nothing new to me. In Snow Canyon one can see some of these giant red sandstone rocks. Some of these rocks come up out of the ground several hundred feet. After looking at these great giant rocks one begins to wonder just how such large rocks are formed.

If one takes a look through biblical glasses it's really quite easy to see how these formed. Southern Utah at one time was deep under the water in this area, a lot of the heavy iron deposits were laid. This happened at the time of the flood. Many many layers of thick iron rich sediments were laid rather quickly in this vast area. Then, as the flood began to reside, the land was upthrust in several geologic cataclysmic events involving fractures, folding, and volcanic events. As this all was happening, great and large bodies of trapped water remained on the land. Then later, we are not sure exactly when, other geologic events happened forcing the remaining trapped water off the landscape. As the great waters began their retreat they carved massive gorges and canyons through this iron rich area leaving the area much the same as we see it today.

When we begin to understand this flood geology and all the forces and work involved then the landscape begins to make sense. St. George Utah is a literal testament and reminder of God's power. It's truly sad that man has come along and almost destroyed the truth of the flood account and made up stories trying to explain the landscape in purely naturalistic ways.

One thing is for sure though, man will not be able to hide the evidence of the flood, the giant testaments of his flood remain as a constant reminder of his awesome power.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Me and my family just returned from a short vacation to St. George Utah. While there we had a chance to go and look at some of the geologic features surrounding the area. A few miles northwest of town is a state park called Snow Canyon. I spent the afternoon and evening there taking a lot of pictures and gazing at the natural beauty of the giant rocks left there. One of the things that really struck me was just how big some of these rocks were. I have been to Moab and other sites around southern Utah and seen other larger giant rocks so this was nothing new to me. In Snow Canyon one can see some of these giant red sandstone rocks. Some of these rocks come up out of the ground several hundred feet. After looking at these great giant rocks one begins to wonder just how such large rocks are formed.

If one takes a look through biblical glasses it's really quite easy to see how these formed. Southern Utah at one time was deep under the water in this area, a lot of the heavy iron deposits were laid. This happened at the time of the flood. Many many layers of thick iron rich sediments were laid rather quickly in this vast area. Then, as the flood began to reside, the land was upthrust in several geologic cataclysmic events involving fractures, folding, and volcanic events. As this all was happening, great and large bodies of trapped water remained on the land. Then later, we are not sure exactly when, other geologic events happened forcing the remaining trapped water off the landscape. As the great waters began their retreat they carved massive gorges and canyons through this iron rich area leaving the area much the same as we see it today.

When we begin to understand this flood geology and all the forces and work involved then the landscape begins to make sense. St. George Utah is a literal testament and reminder of God's power. It's truly sad that man has come along and almost destroyed the truth of the flood account and made up stories trying to explain the landscape in purely naturalistic ways.

One thing is for sure though, man will not be able to hide the evidence of the flood, the giant testaments of his flood remain as a constant reminder of his awesome power.

It doesn't have any affect on my faith, to consider a couple of possibilities:

1.) The earth is only a few thousand years old, and it's formation happened about 12 thousand years ago, and the Lord has the power to speed up the process of things such as turning organic matter into crude oil in a very short time if he needs to.

2.) The earth is millions if not billions of years old, and did not always hold life of any kind. These rocks took eons to form, while the earth was being prepared (it was not necessary that it be done in a great hurry, as God's spirit children were also preparing themselves to come down here.) The earth possibly may not have contained a spirit as it does now. It went through a long preparing process and progression to where it is now, prior to becoming Celestialized. The flood is one of 2 great cataclysms I can think of that altered the appearance of the earth.

But I tend to believe that the Lord took a long period of time preparing the earth -- and core, and layers, and rocks. But cataclysms also played their part. The BoM mentions that the surface of the earth was in one piece and not found in seams or cracks until after Christ's death--whatever that really means, I'm not sure.

[thesometimesaint]

Fig-bearing Thistle:

Does God deliberately set out to deceive his children?

The whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened. It's entirely possible that a global flood occurred 4000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point?

[BCSpace]

One thing is for sure though, man will not be able to hide the evidence of the flood, the giant testaments of his flood remain as a constant reminder of his awesome power.

Sure. But first one has to find such evidence and you have not presented any. What type of iron deposits are these? By what process, how long, and how long ago are they made? etc.

[SilverKnight]

The sedimentary rocks in Southern Utah are evidence of a giant prehistoric lake that existed thousands of years before the supposed Biblical Flood.

Curiously enough, the surrounding rock around the pluvial basins of Utah are not sedimentary, suggesting that the rest of the Unites States was never wholly or even partially submerged in water.

Not in 6000BC, not ever.

So actually Rob, those pretty red rocks you like to look at are good evidence against your favorite old testament fable.

[cinepro]

Fig-bearing Thistle:

Does God deliberately set out to deceive his children?

According to D&C 19...He will be intentionally opaque if He thinks it will be to our benefit.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written "endless torment".

7 Again, it is written "eternal damnation"; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I wouldn't say that God is opaque. More like our understandings of what he is saying are. If God is sending out a false message. What makes him any different than the Devil?

[cinepro]

cinepro:

I wouldn't say that God is opaque. More like our understandings of what he is saying are. If God is sending out a false message. What makes him any different than the Devil?

I don't know. I'm just pointing out that D&C 19 says that God intentionally says "Endless Punishment" because He knows humans will think that "endless" is an adjective describing the unending state of the punishment, when in fact the punishment will end, and instead "Endless" is a proper noun referring to God. It could just as well say "God['s] Punishment" or "Elohim['s] Punishment" or "Alpha and Omega['s] Punishement".

And the improper grammar is just to make it more difficult to figure out.

Saying one thing (using intentionally incorrect grammar) and knowing your audience will interpret it one way when in fact you mean the exact opposite but leaving it like that because you know the misunderstanding will be more effective counts as deception in my book.

[Rob Osborn]

Like I said- one simply can't hide giant rocks that testify of the flood. That is the great thing about God and his word- you can make up anything you like but there God's word is, staring at us from the which we cannot escape.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 3:3 - 7)

These scriptures testify of our day in which there truly are scoffers who deny that the world of old (pre-flood world) was destroyed by being overflowed with water.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I don't believe so. IE; Like most people in this country I have a middle name. I seldom go by it, except on legal documents, like when I joined the military. That doesn't mean I don't have one or that to more accurately describe myself I wouldn't use it. Heavens, when one of my parents was mad at me they'd use my full name, and I'd KNOW I was in trouble.

[SilverKnight]

Like I said- one simply can't hide giant rocks that testify of the flood.

Except they don't.

The rocks of which you speak testify of precisely the opposite.

I suppose next you'll claim the fossilized skulls of prehistoric humans testify to the literal reality of Adam & Eve story.

[Rob Osborn]

Except they don't.

The rocks of which you speak testify of precisely the opposite.

I suppose next you'll claim the fossilized skulls of prehistoric humans testify to the literal reality of Adam & Eve story.

Try explaining that in the face of several million rocks staring you in the face. A typical geology book may say one thing but the evidence in nature doesn't lie- it's there, we cannot escape the reality that it exists.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Osborn:

Those darn geologists, always mucking up a good literalist interpretation of the Bible. After all Pi is exactly 3. Says so in the Bible.

How the rocks around St. George were formed

http://geology.utah.gov/maps/geomap/7_5/pdf/ofr-323.pdf

And those dinosaur bones discovered by BYU students

http://news.byu.edu/archive10-feb-abydosaurus.aspx

And how about those millions of years old bones at BYU

http://cpms.byu.edu/ESM/tour.html

[SkepticTheist]

Rationally, I like the Uniformitarianism of Geology. I like the idea that things formed over time. I believe in catastrophism in the sense that things that "out of the norm" seem to happen, like huge earthquakes, asteroid impacts, and so forth. But this in my mind doesn't seem to take away from the basic fact of Uniformitarianism.

On the other hand, I do believe in the flood. I believe in its historicity. I am still in a state of cognative dissonance between my two conflicting beliefs of Uniformitarianism and the biblical flood. I don't know where to harmonize the two except for the fact that in geologic history there has been plenty of catastrophes, and the flood would have been one of them, whether it is regional or global. At this point, the best I have been able to come up with for the flood is to be able to say that *something* catastrophic happened at the time that altered the earth's climate to effect the age of man. Whereas man used to live to almost a thousand years. Right after the flood, men's age that they can live to rapidly diminished over just a few generations. I don't know how to account for that unless there was something globally catestrophic that caused global climate change. Was it a flood? Perhaps. Where is the evidence, they say? I don't know, only that the scriptures are literal about the age of men rapidly diminishing, and seems to treat Noah's ark as a fact. 'What should I do? Default to denialism about the literalness of the scriptures in these cases and make them all metaphorical with the flood, for the sake of the fact that the geologic record doesn't seem to allow yet for the flood? Somehow, the idea of that feels wrong in my gut. I like to follow my gut, even when it sometimes leads to what some people would call "irrational" beliefs. The fact that I am very thoughtful about something before defaulting to an idea that contradicts a certain set of data from science is to me is the definition of rationality. To me, rationality does not always mean concluding where the "evidence" would lead. But to be thoughtful in ones disagreement with the state of that evidence, and to have a good logical reason for disagreement, even if in the minds of one's detractors or ideological opponents, that might carry a cost. I like to have faith in the process of science sometimes, since it is self corrective, to overcome the fact that science in its current form has not caught up yet to what the scriptures teach as true. Sometimes I like to have faith in the process of science over time rather than defaulting to accepting the results of current science. Some people think that the only justification for changing ones mind is when science actually does correct itself, and that one's position should always be in line with current science, because that is all we really "know." I think that rational, thinking beings can be science friendly without worshiping at the alters of the high priesthood of current science dogma.

Ed Goble

Me and my family just returned from a short vacation to St. George Utah. While there we had a chance to go and look at some of the geologic features surrounding the area. A few miles northwest of town is a state park called Snow Canyon. I spent the afternoon and evening there taking a lot of pictures and gazing at the natural beauty of the giant rocks left there. One of the things that really struck me was just how big some of these rocks were. I have been to Moab and other sites around southern Utah and seen other larger giant rocks so this was nothing new to me. In Snow Canyon one can see some of these giant red sandstone rocks. Some of these rocks come up out of the ground several hundred feet. After looking at these great giant rocks one begins to wonder just how such large rocks are formed.

If one takes a look through biblical glasses it's really quite easy to see how these formed. Southern Utah at one time was deep under the water in this area, a lot of the heavy iron deposits were laid. This happened at the time of the flood. Many many layers of thick iron rich sediments were laid rather quickly in this vast area. Then, as the flood began to reside, the land was upthrust in several geologic cataclysmic events involving fractures, folding, and volcanic events. As this all was happening, great and large bodies of trapped water remained on the land. Then later, we are not sure exactly when, other geologic events happened forcing the remaining trapped water off the landscape. As the great waters began their retreat they carved massive gorges and canyons through this iron rich area leaving the area much the same as we see it today.

When we begin to understand this flood geology and all the forces and work involved then the landscape begins to make sense. St. George Utah is a literal testament and reminder of God's power. It's truly sad that man has come along and almost destroyed the truth of the flood account and made up stories trying to explain the landscape in purely naturalistic ways.

One thing is for sure though, man will not be able to hide the evidence of the flood, the giant testaments of his flood remain as a constant reminder of his awesome power.

[Rob Osborn]

When I am out in nature and suddenly I come upon a gigantic rock 500 feet high and a 1/2 mile wide it's kind of hard to say that unioformatarian models could account for this behemouth in my way. This gigantic rock didn't form over the course of millins of years. The color from top to bottom is the same color, texture, etc. How am I supposed to believe that this rock was slowly formed by deposits over thousands and perhaps millions of years? There are no current uniformatarian process in the world today building these gigantic rocks. Even the flow of river currents carrying sediments out to sea do not produce the size and quantity of rocks we see throughout the world- especially those readily seen in southern Utah.

This is the moment one must abandon the current school of thought because clearly there is something entirely amiss! Have we traded in the word of God for the foolishness of man?

[BCSpace]

Like I said- one simply can't hide giant rocks that testify of the flood.

How do they?

When I am out in nature and suddenly I come upon a gigantic rock 500 feet high and a 1/2 mile wide it's kind of hard to say that unioformatarian models could account for this behemouth in my way. This gigantic rock didn't form over the course of millins of years. The color from top to bottom is the same color, texture, etc. How am I supposed to believe that this rock was slowly formed by deposits over thousands and perhaps millions of years? There are no current uniformatarian process in the world today building these gigantic rocks.

Do you have more than just anecdotal reference to this "rock"?

[SkepticTheist]

When I am out in nature and suddenly I come upon a gigantic rock 500 feet high and a 1/2 mile wide it's kind of hard to say that unioformatarian models could account for this behemouth in my way. This gigantic rock didn't form over the course of millins of years. The color from top to bottom is the same color, texture, etc. How am I supposed to believe that this rock was slowly formed by deposits over thousands and perhaps millions of years? There are no current uniformatarian process in the world today building these gigantic rocks. Even the flow of river currents carrying sediments out to sea do not produce the size and quantity of rocks we see throughout the world- especially those readily seen in southern Utah.

This is the moment one must abandon the current school of thought because clearly there is something entirely amiss! Have we traded in the word of God for the foolishness of man?

Shall the sparrow fly against a hurricane wind? Natural law says that the sparrow will be blown in the opposite direction. Young earth creationism is the sparrow, and science is the hurricane. Science is what it is because to a large degree, the scientific method is an honest pursuit of knowledge, and it can't help but discover many things that are true, despite its limitations. To ignore this is to be on the sandy ground, rather than be built upon the rock. At some time you will be swept away, because you are in denial that science has indeed uncovered many facts. Its where those things harmonize with gospel truth that is where our pursuit of knowledge should go. It is not in trying to espouse naive notions that come out of protestantism such as Intelligent Design or Young Earth creationism. As Mormons, we actually have a lot more in common with science than we do with these ideas that protestants espouse which deny that the earth is round, so to speak. Kudos to the Catholics who have actually espoused science.

Ed Goble

[cinepro]

cinepro:

I don't believe so. IE; Like most people in this country I have a middle name. I seldom go by it, except on legal documents, like when I joined the military. That doesn't mean I don't have one or that to more accurately describe myself I wouldn't use it. Heavens, when one of my parents was mad at me they'd use my full name, and I'd KNOW I was in trouble.

That's all well and fine, but the question would be whether it is ethical to use your middle name in a way that is intentionally confusing to others.

My middle name might be Solidgoald, but if I advertised Solidgoald rings on the radio and then sent out stainless steel rings instead, I think the people who thought they were getting actual gold rings might feel a little upset.

And if the police came to find out what happened, I would just follow D&C 19 and say "Officers, my name is Solidgoald, but I knew people would think it was actually an adjective describing the composition of the rings so I used it because I knew it would be more effective. But since it's also my name, it's not deceptive at all."

[T-Shirt]

That's all well and fine, but the question would be whether it is ethical to use your middle name in a way that is intentionally confusing to others.

My middle name might be Solidgoald, but if I advertised Solidgoald rings on the radio and then sent out stainless steel rings instead, I think the people who thought they were getting actual gold rings might feel a little upset.

And if the police came to find out what happened, I would just follow D&C 19 and say "Officers, my name is Solidgoald, but I knew people would think it was actually an adjective describing the composition of the rings so I used it because I knew it would be more effective. But since it's also my name, it's not deceptive at all."

Your example is a deceptive act designed to fool someone into receiving something worthless. God's method is designed to create an incentive for people to qualify for the greatest of all rewards. Your method is the exact opposite of God's.

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

Double post

[katherine the great]

Me and my family just returned from a short vacation to St. George Utah. While there we had a chance to go and look at some of the geologic features surrounding the area. A few miles northwest of town is a state park called Snow Canyon. I spent the afternoon and evening there taking a lot of pictures and gazing at the natural beauty of the giant rocks left there. One of the things that really struck me was just how big some of these rocks were. I have been to Moab and other sites around southern Utah and seen other larger giant rocks so this was nothing new to me. In Snow Canyon one can see some of these giant red sandstone rocks. Some of these rocks come up out of the ground several hundred feet. After looking at these great giant rocks one begins to wonder just how such large rocks are formed.

If one takes a look through biblical glasses it's really quite easy to see how these formed. Southern Utah at one time was deep under the water in this area, a lot of the heavy iron deposits were laid. This happened at the time of the flood. Many many layers of thick iron rich sediments were laid rather quickly in this vast area. Then, as the flood began to reside, the land was upthrust in several geologic cataclysmic events involving fractures, folding, and volcanic events. As this all was happening, great and large bodies of trapped water remained on the land. Then later, we are not sure exactly when, other geologic events happened forcing the remaining trapped water off the landscape. As the great waters began their retreat they carved massive gorges and canyons through this iron rich area leaving the area much the same as we see it today.

When we begin to understand this flood geology and all the forces and work involved then the landscape begins to make sense. St. George Utah is a literal testament and reminder of God's power. It's truly sad that man has come along and almost destroyed the truth of the flood account and made up stories trying to explain the landscape in purely naturalistic ways.

One thing is for sure though, man will not be able to hide the evidence of the flood, the giant testaments of his flood remain as a constant reminder of his awesome power.

If you can find one single reputable geologist who agrees with you, I might consider thinking about it. As it is though, you have no knowledge of geology and it's silly to try to use it to support your literal interpretation of a completely implausible Old Testament story. The entire world has not been underwater for over a billion years. A local flood I can believe. A worldwide flood, no way.

[Rob Osborn]

Shall the sparrow fly against a hurricane wind? Natural law says that the sparrow will be blown in the opposite direction. Young earth creationism is the sparrow, and science is the hurricane. Science is what it is because to a large degree, the scientific method is an honest pursuit of knowledge, and it can't help but discover many things that are true, despite its limitations. To ignore this is to be on the sandy ground, rather than be built upon the rock. At some time you will be swept away, because you are in denial that science has indeed uncovered many facts. Its where those things harmonize with gospel truth that is where our pursuit of knowledge should go. It is not in trying to espouse naive notions that come out of protestantism such as Intelligent Design or Young Earth creationism. As Mormons, we actually have a lot more in common with science than we do with these ideas that protestants espouse which deny that the earth is round, so to speak. Kudos to the Catholics who have actually espoused science.

Ed Goble

So, what do we do? Throw the bible in the garbadge?

Honestly, the creationism and ID movements have more in common with LDS doctrine than the sciences when it comes to both the creation and the flood. It is 100% church doctrine that the world was covered by a flood some 4-5 thousand years ago. So, I guess in your analogy it's actually the church as the sparrow in the face of the hurricane. The only difference is that God is coming with fire and brimstone and no fable of science will withstand it. The scriptures make it clear that there shall be scoffers in the last days who deny the flood. My dear brother, we live in that day.

[Rob Osborn]

If you can find one single reputable geologist who agrees with you, I might consider thinking about it. As it is though, you have no knowledge of geology and it's silly to try to use it to support your literal interpretation of a completely implausible Old Testament story. The entire world has not been underwater for over a billion years. A local flood I can believe. A worldwide flood, no way.

There are plenty of reputable geologists who believe in the global flood. But, I know for a fact that won't convince you so why do you say it?

What religion do you belong to? My religion (the LDS religion) believes in a worldwide flood. What does your religion believe?

[David T]

So, what do we do? Throw the bible in the garbadge?

No, not the Bible. Just outdated interpretive views that of necessity disregard what is known of biblical era culture, genre, literature, history, etc.

You, on the other hand, appear to want to throw all of modern advances in scientific observation in the trash, because it contradicts one single, but popular, reading of millennia old epic literature.

But hey, to each their own.

[cinepro]

Your example is a deceptive act designed to fool someone into receiving something worthless. God's method is designed to create an incentive for people to qualify for the greatest of all rewards. Your method is the exact opposite of God's.

T-Shirt

You're confusing the method with the result.

If you read D&C 19 carefully, it is exactly the same method. Men are led to believe something because a certain word is used, but they have been intentionally misled.

The funny thing is to think what would happen if we didn't have D&C 19 and someone theorized that "endless" wasn't describing the duration of the punishment but was instead referring to the punishment as "God's" punishment (but incorrectly omitting the possessive that would indicate as much). They would get laughed out of town.