Ron Beron Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 The matter of our universe has always existed. You cannot just make matter appear out of thin air. The creation speaks of the Gods taking the already existing matter and then forming it into the parts of the universe we now see. It looks like you are well schooled in the philosophies of men.Not necessarily. Since matter can only be changed not created or destroyed it existed in a different form at the time of the "Big Bang" which filled the universe with matter. Prior to that matter as we know did not exist.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 I guess I will have to leave you discontented then because it would be impossible to teach you that which is unteachable. Moses may or may not understood the Earth to be round or flat. We simply do not know. We do know that the best observable knowledge of Egypt at this time taught a flat earth theory i.e., the "earth as a flat expanse of land, personified by the god Geb, over which arched the sky goddess Nut. The two were separated by Shu, the god of air. Beneath the earth lay a parallel underworld and undersky, and beyond the skies lay the infinite expanse of Nu, the chaos that had existed before creation.[22] The Egyptians also believed in a place called the Duat, a mysterious region associated with death and rebirth, that may have lain in the underworld or in the sky. Each day, Ra traveled over the earth across the underside of the sky, and at night he passed through the Duat to be reborn at dawn.[23]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion#cite_note-21)Admittedly there is some new material on this I have yet to peruse, such as "Astronomy and the Creation in the Book of Abraham", but the prevailing attitude is as I stated.Aside from that we are discussing Noah and not Moses.For instance- I live in a society whose scientific teachings believe that man evolved from a lower order of species. But I personally do not believe in that teaching. I believe that man was divinely created from God himself. I also live in a society whose scientific teachings do not believe in the global flood in Noah's day. But I personally do not believe that, I believe the world was flooded globally in Noah's day. So, let's say that 4,000 years from now someone was writing about my beliefs. Do they go off of what was currently taught in my day or do they go with my personal beliefs. I would sure hope they go off my personal beliefs over what my contemporaries believed! So how is this any different than with Moses? It's no different at all. We cannot assume that Moses believed in the popular teachings of his day, especially in light of the fact that he was taught by God, not by man. This actually makes your case harder to prove. And whether it be Noah or Moses it doesn't really matter because Moses is credited with writing and keeping the record from the which he saw the events unfold in part at least by vision.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Not necessarily. Since matter can only be changed not created or destroyed it existed in a different form at the time of the "Big Bang" which filled the universe with matter. Prior to that matter as we know did not exist.Since we are both arguing from the stage of conjecture, one would have to actually prove that matter can hold some form other than it's present form of taking up space.
zelder Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I'm fascinated by the idea that there are some doctrines an LDS must believe (or "understand" according to the pronouncements of Church leaders) to avoid being branded as "unworthy" and "unfaithful" members. Which doctrines must be so believed?The only beliefs that are enfored are the ones asked about in the temple recommend questions. We don't need to believe in a literal flood or a literal Adam and Eve. They are mostly concerned about our behaviour. We are expected to believe in God, the atonement of Jesus, and the restoration of the gospel, thats about it.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:Ever hear of the Big Bang?Ps. Abraham believed in a geocentric universe.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:Ever hear of the Big Bang?Ps. Abraham believed in a geocentric universe.Have you ever heard of what Christians call the "creation"?
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:Yep, and I've heard of "creationism". Have you?
semlogo Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Hum....Does this mean that Joseph Smith and company also believed in a flat four cornered earth and not one of sphereoid?--No, but Joseph often borrowed Biblical language. In modern times, we take don't terms like "four corners" and "firmament" the same way as they were understood by the ancient Israelites.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:Yep, and I've heard of "creationism". Have you?Yep, I have heard of that. In creationism they actually believe that Noah and God are real people.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 No, but Joseph often borrowed Biblical language. In modern times, we take don't terms like "four corners" and "firmament" the same way as they were understood by the ancient Israelites.So now you are an expert? What does that have anything to do with the personal beliefs of Moses or Noah?
semlogo Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 So now you are an expert? What does that have anything to do with the personal beliefs of Moses or Noah?OT-era scriptures represent that flat-earth belief. We have no way of knowing if Moses or Noah believed differently in private.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:I actually believe that Noah and Moses were Prophets of God. I guarantee you I'm no creationist.
Rivers Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:I actually believe that Noah and Moses were Prophets of God. I guarantee you I'm no creationist.I agree. I don't doubt the fact that these men existed. But I think the flood story is probably and embelished version of an experience that Noah had in his life. People back in Old Testament times told stories to teach lessons. I think its wise to take the messages from these stories and try not to focus on the historical accuracy or lack thereof.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rivers:I believe they were recording events as they saw them. Having seen pictures on the television of flooded Mississippi River. I can well believe the people there felt like their entire world was under water. But the facts remain it was a massive albeit local event.
Rivers Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rivers:I believe they were recording events as they saw them. Having seen pictures on the television of flooded Mississippi River. I can well believe the people there felt like their entire world was under water. But the facts remain it was a massive albeit local event.What about the similar flood stories that were written earlier? Could details of these earlier stories have been incorporated into Noah's Story?
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rivers:Possibly maybe even probably. I don't know as the whole story of ancient floods has been told. My currant thinking is that the flood of Noah's time was a massive flood in the area of the Bosporus about 5600 BCE.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theoryBut my ideas will probably change as new information becomes available.
Rivers Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rivers:Possibly maybe even probably. I don't know as the whole story of ancient floods has been told. My currant thinking is that the flood of Noah's time was a massive flood in the area of the Bosporus about 5600 BCE.http://en.wikipedia....a_deluge_theoryBut my ideas will probably change as new information becomes available.Ah. So you reject common date given for Noah's time which is about 2400 B.C.?
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 OT-era scriptures represent that flat-earth belief. We have no way of knowing if Moses or Noah believed differently in private.I guess if you do not believe the scriptures than of course, no, we do not have a way of knowing what they thought. But, if one does believe the scriptures then it's a mute point because the scriptures state that Moses and Noah knew th eearth was round.
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:I actually believe that Noah and Moses were Prophets of God. I guarantee you I'm no creationist.So, let me get this straight- you believe that Noah and Moses were both prophets of God and yet deny the words they speak and recorded as the most prominent pieces of their days. That's an oxymoron isn't it?
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rob Osborn:Nope. However I am perfectly free to not believe that someone's interpretation of what they said is factually accurate. "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." should strike a bell with you.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Rivers:I believe these events happened I don't know as commonly accepted time lines are all that relevant, or accurate for biblical events prior to about King Solomon.
semlogo Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I guess if you do not believe the scriptures than of course, no, we do not have a way of knowing what they thought. But, if one does believe the scriptures then it's a mute point because the scriptures state that Moses and Noah knew th eearth was round.The old testament says the earth is flat. Does it say it's round in the PoGP?
Rob Osborn Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 The old testament says the earth is flat. Does it say it's round in the PoGP?I guess it depends on what you mean by saying the OT says the earth is flat. Gy that standard then Joseph Smith must have thought the earth was flat. Perhaps even God must think the earth is flat. Maybe we should all just join the flat earth society.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Semlogo:No it doesn't.http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquityThe Book of Abraham, however, clearly delineates a geocentric view of the universe
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