Mormon Belief in the Supernatural

[LDS Guy 1986]

At this point, I take issue primarily with the limitation of "the power of God" being used by the priesthood with no exceptions. This seems to contradict the very meaning of miracles which is something that is accomplished through divine means...and if this can be accomplished through prayer, it is a use of the power of God by an individual with faith.

The article I quoted by Dallin Oaks points out that miracles done through the priesthood and miracles done through the power of faith are ultimately both from the same source since both are derived from and through faith. Priesthood blessings without faith are powerless, prayer without faith is also powerless but just as priesthood has the power of God through faith, then so does prayer make use of the power of God through faith.

I agree that miracles can happen through prayer without the priesthood, but in the sense of someone working a miracle by there own hands, such as moses parting the red sea, or Joshua (and latter Elijah and Elisha) parting the Jordan River, turning water into wine, casting out demons, healing the sick, ect, this can only be done by a priesthood holder.

Anyone else can pray to God to make these miracles happen (by the hand of God himself in most cases)but they themselves cannot be the vessel or representative through which the power of God works only the Priesthood can be the vessel or representative for God's power to work through.

Does this explain this better?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I disagree. You can come to know enough about Christ to exercise faith in Him by studying the Bible and receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost, whose mission it is to bear witness of Him and of the Father.

You can gain a partial witness of him through just the Holy Bible, but only through the fullness of the restored gospel, can you gain a fullness of testimony or faith in Jesus Christ and the Father.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

You can gain a partial witness of him through just the Holy Bible, but only through the fullness of the restored gospel, can you gain a fullness of testimony or faith in Jesus Christ and the Father.

I disagree.

You can gain a complete witness of Jesus Christ without a fullness of the Gospel, in the fullness of the Gospel is found the fullness of teachings, principles, and practices.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Your pride astonishes me.

God blesses those who have faith in Him and in His Son. He doesn't just bless Mormons.

And your attitude towards ministers of other churches as money seeking fame whores is disgusting. The pure in heart can be found everywhere.

Your profanity is not appreciated even more so when you imply I use such language when I do not, as I posted about you cannot have a fullness of testimony faith, without the fullness of the Restored Gospel.

Just like you can't hit the lottery unless your ticket has all the selected numbers, you can win a smaller prize through matching 3 or 3 or the numbers but you need all 5 and the power ball (if I am wrong here correct me I don't play lottery) to win the $140 million dollar jackpot.

You need the entire Gospel not just most of it to have a complete faith, without the BoM, D&C, and PoGP one cannot have complete faith in Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, because they do not know the complete Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.

You can't have faith in something you don't know IMO.

Now, other faiths will lead people to the one true Church of Christ IMO, they will find truths in those faith and seek the fullness of the Gospel. I believe this deeply because I found the true Church of Christ through protestantism, my wife found it through Catholicism.

Also I never said every other minister of every other faith is preaching for fame and fortune, this is a big fat lie, and I never said anything like that. =

What I said was that you can see people out there the perform "miracles" and other things in order to gain fame and fortune. I never said all and never said this excluded my faith either, all faiths can have people seeking the approval of man instead of the approval of God.

Outside of LDS Church though the do not have the priesthood so any spiritual works or miracles they perform are no by the power of God. This is what I said, and I stand by it, unless we have clear and compelling scriptural evidence to refute this.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I disagree.

You can gain a complete witness of Jesus Christ without a fullness of the Gospel, in the fullness of the Gospel is found the fullness of teachings, principles, and practices.

CFR please?

Simply stating is not enough we need references to support please, thank you!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

CFR please?

Simply stating is not enough we need references to support please, thank you!

How do you CFR a belief?

CFR that only Mormons can have complete faith in Jesus Christ.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Your profanity is not appreciated, as I posted about you cannot have a fullness of testimony faith, without the fullness of the Restored Gospel.

Just like you can't hit the lottery unless your ticket has all the selected numbers, you can win a smaller prize through matching 3 or 3 or the numbers but you need all 5 and the power ball (if I am wrong here correct me I don't play lottery) to win the $140 million dollar jackpot.

You need the entire Gospel not just most of it to have a complete faith, without the BoM, D&C, and PoGP one cannot have complete faith in Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, because they do not know the complete Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.

You can't have faith in something you don't know IMO.

Now, other faiths will lead people to the one true Church of Christ IMO, they will find truths in those faith and seek the fullness of the Gospel. I believe this deeply because I found the true Church of Christ through protestantism, my wife found it through Catholicism.

Also I never said every other minister of every other faith is preaching for fame and fortune, this is a big fat lie, and I never said anything like that. =

What I said was that you can see people out there the perform "miracles" and other things in order to gain fame and fortune. I never said all and never said this excluded my faith either, all faiths can have people seeking the approval of man instead of the approval of God.

Outside of LDS Church though the do not have the priesthood so any spiritual works or miracles they perform are no by the power of God. This is what I said, and I stand by it, unless we have clear and compelling scriptural evidence to refute this.

If I have used unacceptable language, I am sure the Mods will correct me.

(Boy, you guys sure snagged a zealous one here. Hopefully, he doesn't turn more away then he brings in.)

[LDS Guy 1986]

How do you CFR a belief?

CFR that only Mormons can have complete faith in Jesus Christ.

Seeing that you refuse to discuss only deflect and disagree I will not continue this since you do not wish to follow forum rules.

When you provide evidence that can be discussed and considered that the Bible is sufficient for faith then I will answer your question why the Bible alone is insufficient for faith.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Seeing that you refuse to discuss only deflect and disagree I will not continue this since you do not wish to follow forum rules.

When you provide evidence that can be discussed and considered that the Bible is sufficient for faith then I will answer your question why the Bible alone is insufficient for faith.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... wow.

Anyhoo...

I never said the "Bible is sufficient for faith", I said "a person can have complete faith in Jesus Christ without yet knowing the fullness of the Gospel."- without knowing the exact manner of baptism, or that there are 3 degrees of Glory, or that everyone, not just believers, will be resurrected, etc... The fullness of the Gospel just adds to their knowledge of the doctrines of Christ.

[nicolasconnault]

IMO this is a great contradiction, of course you need to have faith to repent and be baptized, Faith in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, if you faith in placed in anything else but the restored Gospel it is not faith in Jesus Christ since Christ is the restored Gospel (in fact he is the living Gospel) you can't put your faith in Christ unless it is in his restored Gospel, any other Gospel is insufficient to give you faith in Jesus Christ.

Once again your faith has to be in the fullness of the Gospel (which today is the restored Gospel) I can't place my faith in anything else than Christ's Gospel in order to have the faith mentioned in these verses.

Under your argument, I can put my faith in my motorcycle and work miracles since I have faith, or place my faith in Joseph Smith and work miracles since I have faith. The only way to have true faith in Christ is through Christ's Restored Gospel (or it's ancient equivalents in those times).

Your understanding of the doctrine of faith is incorrect. You should re-read the scriptures I have quoted. They link the performance of miracles to Faith in Christ, not to "Faith in the restored Gospel".

You are obviously quite young and still unacquainted with "men and things", you would do well to follow Joseph Smith's example of humility and seek wisdom through learning. Some of the things you are saying here (see highlighted sections of your quote above) are both false AND very offensive to those not of our faith. You are doing more harm than good by preaching these falsehoods on this board.

I won't even ask you to find scriptures or latter-day teachings that prove that only LDS can have true faith in Christ, because you will find none. It is simply a false teaching.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Your understanding of the doctrine of faith is incorrect. You should re-read the scriptures I have quoted. They link the performance of miracles to Faith in Christ, not to "Faith in the restored Gospel".

You are obviously quite young and still unacquainted with "men and things", you would do well to follow Joseph Smith's example of humility and seek wisdom through learning. Some of the things you are saying here (see highlighted sections of your quote above) are both false AND very offensive to those not of our faith. You are doing more harm than good by preaching these falsehoods on this board.

I won't even ask you to find scriptures or latter-day teachings that prove that only LDS can have true faith in Christ, because you will find none. It is simply a false teaching.

Christ is the Word, he is the living Gospel if you not have faith in his restored Gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith you cannot have complete faith in Christ.

This is like saying you have faith that the light bulb will work when you flip the switch but do not have faith in electricity.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... wow.

Anyhoo...

I never said the "Bible is sufficient for faith", I said "a person can have complete faith in Jesus Christ without yet knowing the fullness of the Gospel."- without know the exact manner of baptism, or that there are 3 degrees of Glory, or that everyone, not just believers, will be resurrected, etc... The fullness of the Gospel just adds to their knowledge of the doctrines of Christ.

See this makes nor scriptural sense, we have "one lord, one faith . . ." Ephesians 4:5

There is only one way to gain a full testimony of Jesus Christ through the fullness of his Gospel which is his Restored Gospel.

There is one faith not 2 or 3 or 4, but one, faith in the Living Gospel aka Jesus Christ which can only be gained through his restored gospel.

Added through edit:

A good analogy is a history book, can you learn the complete history of the entire world from an outdated history book from 2000 years ago?

No, just like you can't learn the entire history of Jesus Christ and his teachings to the world through a source of scripture from 2000 years ago or even two sources of scriptures. This is why we have the D&C because we need to continue to receive teachings from Christ in order to receive a fullness line upon line, precept upon precept.

Without the restored gospel you are like the kid who stands up in class and tells everyone in 2000 that the Cold War is raging all over the world and the this conflict between capitalism and communism will never end. You can't get the full gospel without the current up to date revelations.

The restored gospel is the only way to gain a complete faith in Jesus Christ.

[nicolasconnault]

Christ is the Word, he is the living Gospel if you not have faith in his restored Gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith you cannot have complete faith in Christ.

This is like saying you have faith that the light bulb will work when you flip the switch but do not have faith in electricity.

Reflect for a moment. You are a recent convert to the Church. Is it possible, even remotely, that in your learning of the doctrine you may make some mistakes, which need correcting? You are currently acting as if you thought yourself immune to error. That is a very dangerous attitude to have as a member, and will eventually lead to your downfall and apostasy if you don't learn meekness and humility.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

See this makes nor scriptural sense, we have "one lord, one faith . . ." Ephesians 4:5

There is only one way to gain a full testimony of Jesus Christ through the fullness of his Gospel which is his Restored Gospel.

There is one faith not 2 or 3 or 4, but one, faith in the Living Gospel aka Jesus Christ which can only be gained through his restored gospel.

Added through edit:

A good analogy is a history book, can you learn the complete history of the entire world from an outdated history book from 2000 years ago?

No, just like you can't learn the entire history of Jesus Christ and his teachings to the world through a source of scripture from 2000 years ago or even two sources of scriptures. This is why we have the D&C because we need to continue to receive teachings from Christ in order to receive a fullness line upon line, precept upon precept.

Without the restored gospel you are like the kid who stands up in class and tells everyone in 2000 that the Cold War is raging all over the world and the this conflict between capitalism and communism will never end. You can't get the full gospel without the current up to date revelations.

The restored gospel is the only way to gain a complete faith in Jesus Christ.

You are confusing knowledge of true principles with faith in Jesus Christ.

You have been adequately answered on the subject by your fellow church member, Nick. I believe I am done with this line of discussion for now.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Reflect for a moment. You are a recent convert to the Church. Is it possible, even remotely, that in your learning of the doctrine you may make some mistakes, which need correcting? Y

I converted in 2004 that's somewhat recent but not new member recent, also before joining the Church I spent almost 15 years studying the bible daily.

My learning is no more correct or incorrect than anyone else's seeing we are all imperfect men. When clear and compelling scripture is presented, or a new revelation given that corrects my understanding I be corrected. But it will be the scriptures that corrects me not the understanding of men, you are just as likely to be wrong as I am. So I will trust in what I feel and discover over other peoples feelings and discoveries, with the exception of clear and compelling scriptural evidence (and the standard of compelling is what I determine is compelling not others) or new revelation from the Prophet of God Thomas S Monson, declared by unanimous decision of the Apostles of Jesus Christ and sustained by the Body of Christ in General Conference.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand though, so I will not bring it up again to keep the thread on topic.

[nicolasconnault]

I converted in 2004 that's somewhat recent but not new member recent, also before joining the Church I spent almost 15 years studying the bible daily.

My learning is no more correct or incorrect than anyone else's seeing we are all imperfect men. When clear and compelling scripture is presented, or a new revelation given that corrects my understanding I be corrected. But it will be the scriptures that corrects me not the understanding of men, you are just as likely to be wrong as I am. So I will trust in what I feel and discover over other peoples feelings and discoveries, with the exception of clear and compelling scriptural evidence (and the standard of compelling is what I determine is compelling not others) or new revelation from the Prophet of God Thomas S Monson, declared by unanimous decision of the Apostles of Jesus Christ and sustained by the Body of Christ in General Conference.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand though, so I will not bring it up again to keep the thread on topic.

Find me a single statement by any prophet/apostle in the last 70 years that teaches that only priesthood holders can perform miracles, or that only LDS members can have true faith in Christ. Unless you find it, you are teaching a doctrine that is your own. You're free to do so, but please accept the consequences, and acknowledge that it is your opinion, and is not backed up by the living oracles of God.

One of these consequences is that of alienating non-LDS by proclaiming that their faith in Christ is incomplete (when in fact it may be far more "complete" than yours), and that if they perform miracles they do it by the power of satan. That is not an efficient way to do missionary work, especially when your "doctrine" is entirely of your own making, and is not backed up by modern-day apostles and prophets.

You have failed to provide "compelling scriptural evidence" for your teachings (your references do not prove either point in any way), so I have to really wonder why you are so stubbornly attached to these ideas. Does it make you feel superior to non-LDS christians?

[DarkScythe]

Do you have any evidence for this statement, or is it just an expression of your imagination?

don't confuse a statement of an opinion for a statement of fact. Regardless of the validity of psychic ,magic and supernatural, proof of them are subjective never, objective.

I can't claim any supernatural evidence that is not personal.

[Nathair/|\]

magic and the supernatural works on higher natural laws.

Do you have any evidence for this statement, or is it just an expression of your imagination?

DarkSythe's position seems to be the consensus of every major occultist whose works on magical theory I have read.

[Calm]

Christ is the Word, he is the living Gospel if you not have faith in his restored Gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith you cannot have complete faith in Christ.

But people don't need to have complete faith to have miracles work. Alma speaks of miracles happening when one's faith is the equivalent of a seed. There is no scripture or teaching anywhere that I am aware that speaks of a requirement of "complete faith" nor any that speak of having faith in the Restored Gospel as a completion of faith. Even the articles of faiths speak of faith in Christ as being simply the first principle of the gospel, not all of the gospel nor exclusive to the LDS church.

My POV of the priesthood is that it takes a sacred act (made sacred because it is undertaken with faith in God, no matter how newborn or fragile that faith ) and makes that act a covenantal act because it is done with authority just as baptism and sealings take God's spiritual children, his literal offspring and not only sanctify them but creates with them a covenantal relationship an thus tunn them into his eternal, celestial family through these and other ordinances.

Thus a prayer done through the priesthood becomes an ordinance, a part of the covenant relationship but that does not make that same prayer spoken by a nonpriesthood holder to be any less faith based, any less fulfilled by the power of God and the result of that prayer any less of a miracle.

add-on: in doing a google of lds.org on "complete faith", interestingly enough one of the examples given was of an Amish community which was described as having "complete faith"....

http://lds.org/ldsor...0004d82620aRCRD

Another example was Joseph Smith when he first went to the Lord with a question...he most definitely did not have the Restored Gospel as his foundation from which he sought out God at that time, yet he had compete faith according to this Ensign article by JF McKonkie because he had the Spirit as his companion. And since we know that nonLDS can have the Spirit as a companion......

[DarkScythe]

DarkSythe's position seems to be the consensus of every major occultist whose works on magical theory I have read.

Don't forget that there is plenty of B.S. within the occult too.

[nicolasconnault]

Another example was Joseph Smith when he first went to the Lord with a question...he most definitely did not have the Restored Gospel as his foundation from which he sought out God at that time, yet he had compete faith according to this Ensign article by JF McKonkie because he had the Spirit as his companion. And since we know that nonLDS can have the Spirit as a companion......

Excellent example! Joseph Smith witnessed a number of miracles, including the first vision and the translation of the book of Mormon, before he was baptised or received the priesthood!

[Deborah]

You need the entire Gospel not just most of it to have a complete faith, without the BoM, D&C, and PoGP one cannot have complete faith in Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, because they do not know the complete Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.

You can't have faith in something you don't know IMO.

I think the problem is with the term "complete" faith. Faith is faith whether it's the size of a mustard seed or something greater. As to the last statement If you know something you no longer have faith. Therefore faith is believing something you don't know. Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[Garden Girl]

The restored gospel is the only way to gain a complete faith in Jesus Christ.

Hello LDS Guy...

I agree with others above who disagree with your statement that the only way to gain a complete faith in Jesus Christ is through the restored gospel.

I've known many of our Christian brothers and sisters of other faiths who have had an absolute, complete faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer as proclaimed in biblical scripture, including many who post on this Board.

And I believe it was BoMLuvr who pointed out that you're confusing faith in the principles and teachings of the restored gospel with faith in Jesus Christ. That is an important distinction.

No matter how many times you repeat your personal belief that those outside of the Church cannot have a complete faith in Christ, that does not make it true. In fact, I cringe to hear a church member make such a statement. It's an insult to the many wonderful, faithful Christians...

You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not make it fact, nor does it make it correct doctrine of the Church and I hope the non-LDS posters on this board realize this when they do read your statements of opinion... and that they see the other responses to your posts from your fellow LDS.

from the beautiful central Oregon coast on a cold, 25-degree day in Gleneden Beach...

GG... brrrr

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think the problem is with the term "complete" faith. Faith is faith whether it's the size of a mustard seed or something greater. As to the last statement If you know something you no longer have faith. Therefore faith is believing something you don't know. Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Let me try and explain this as well as I can, and I have no clue how this spun so out of control so I will rest my case with this.

We believe that the teachings of Jesus Christ were restored because of the Great Apostasy where teachings and doctrine were distorted, changed, or lost from the Gospel, making the Gospel incomplete and in need to be restored.

So if you do not have Christ's Gospel (the Restored Gospel) you cannot have a complete testimony of him, you can have a testimony that he is the savior of the world, yes, and that he is your lord and king. The problem though is that this testimony is diluted with layers of false doctrine, the Holy Ghost is a small still voice and it is hard for people to hear that voice over the man made teachings that muddy mainstream Christianity.

The Holy Bible is an excellent record of scripture, it is the Word of God as far as it is correctly translated, but without the BoM, D&C, and PoGP one does not have the fullness of the Gospel needed to have a strong testimony in Christ.

Also remember that the only way to grow a testimony is through the Holy Ghost, and one cannot have the Gift of the Holy Ghost without the Restored Gospel. The Holy Ghost can give you that momentary reassurance that this is truth, but it must leave quickly and cannot stay to grow that testimony. Without strong testimony one cannot have true faith in Christ, IMO.

No Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands after one is baptized by the proper priesthood authority (LDS priesthood) and one cannot have true faith, IMO.

Faith that Jesus is the Christ (and faith in any spiritual thing) is a gift of the spirit, we are taught this in the Church http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-22-the-gifts-of-the-spirit?lang=eng.

If you do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands you cannot have true faith, for one cannot receive spiritual gifts if they do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You may have a form of faith, but this is not the spiritual gift of faith that can only be given by the Holy Ghost.

The Gift of Faith that Jesus is the Son of God is the only faith that can save you and you can only receive it through the Restored Gospel and the Restored Church of Jesus Christ, IMO.

Other faiths can lead on to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to investigate, be baptized, receive the gift of the holy ghost, and through prayer and study of the scriptures receive the spiritual faith in Christ that is needed for salvation.

When I spoke of complete faith this is what I mean, the Gift of Faith that Jesus is the Christ through the Holy Ghost, this is only available through the gift of the holy ghost, which can only be recieved by laying on of hands by the restored priesthood of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I accept that any non-LDS completely rejects this view as false, I accept that, but it is the valid doctrine of the Church. We know as a Church that only we have the Holy Ghost, for only we have the restored priesthood and restored gospel to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is not a false teaching, it is the doctrine of the Church taught openly in our faith.

I understand many will not like this and they have the right to reject this doctrine whether they be LDS or not, it is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints though.

[Garden Girl]

I give up....

GG