Mormon Belief in the Supernatural

[Nathair/|\]

I think the debate here is over definitions. We should ask Nathair what his definition of magic is, that we should =).

It's kind of disturbing when I'm the resident subject matter expert on something, but I'll do my best. I would like to get Volgadon's take on this as well. He knows much more than me about kaballa.

Nathair or David Bowie...

I'm waiting for him to randomly show up in the thread and post, "

."

Yeah, I'd certainly be interested in the Goblin King's take myself.

All right, here goes.

Magic

Dion Fortune, a leader in the original Golden Dawn and one of the most important Hermetic mages of the past century defined it as "Causing change in consciousness in accordance with will." Magic typically involves manipulating the life force (what Chinese and Japanese martial artists call chi or ki and Jedi call "the Force," the Hebrew word is ruach and my Druid tradition calls it Nwyfre.) It is typically done either through imagination/visualization, physical movement (eg. dance, martial arts), or using materials that are naturally charged with certain qualities of Nwyfre (eg. Juniper bushes are said to keep thieves away and elm trees are said to attract Faeries); combined with intent. Other plants, animals and minerals have their own effects and properties.)

The effects can be enhanced by ritual, by music and by timing the work to days when the spiritus mundi or general nwyfre of the earth are strong in certain qualities. One can also enchant (literally: to put a song in something) certain objects or places to help them in their work or to have a long term effect without needing to work magic every time. One might enchant a stone in their garden to increase productivity or prepare a satchel of herbs and minerals and keep it where they practice a musical instrument to increase the rate of improvement.

However, the one thing that must not be neglected if one wants to learn magic is regular practice, just like if one wants to be an artist, they have to practice. For this reason, many mages say that all human activities, without exception, are forms of magic.

Occult

Literally means hidden or unseen. Occult typically refers to any activity taught only to those who have been initiated. In a general sense, it includes groups like the Freemasons or Odd Fellows.

Sorcery

The only kind of magic prohibited in restoration scripture. It refers to powers derived from evil entities (eg. Satan) or evil acts (eg. involuntary human sacrifice or torture of any living being.) Much of what Alister Crowley did and virtually anything promoted by Anton LaVey qualifies. These are the practices LDS Guy is thinking of when he uses the word magic. Sorcery can also refer to claiming magical abilities, either pretend or real, in order to deceive and get money, power, etc. Goetia is a type of sorcery under the literal definition of invoking evil entities. However, it can also involve improving psychological health by dealing with ones shadow side or personal demons (ie. damaged parts of the psyche.)

Black Magic

Any act involving sorcery or magic for evil purposes. Black magic always burns it's caster. Curses always rebound. However, magic for the purpose of ensuring a criminal will be caught, for example, is not black magic unless motivations are evil.

Hope this helps.

Yours under the theoretical oaks,

Nathair /|\

[LDS Guy 1986]

No offense meant but to me thats a very silly defination and even dangerous as it gets people burnt at the stake, stoned and drowned.

Then the scriptures are a silly dictionary! LOL

People are responsible for there actions but that doesn't mean that the Word of God is incorrect.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The OT does not specifically mention magic except for a few exceptions. They do, however, refer to arts associated with divination, necromancy, etc. In no case was magic associated with Satanism within the OT. Such associations are made among folk religions.

The scriptures is far more than just the OT, you still have the NT, the BoM, the D&C, and PoGP

[phaedrus ut]

I gave up all my supernatural beliefs and superstitions within the past decade. I don't believe in evil spirits, satanic powers, miracles or good magic powers from God. I don't believe in global floods, biblical creation myths, faith powered compasses or magic translating rocks. It was difficult to do at first but now I feel it's been one of the truly liberating changes in my life.

Phaedrus

[LDS Guy 1986]

It was difficult to do at first but now I feel it's been one of the truly liberating changes in my life.

This is ironic given that your avatar is Plato a staunch believer in a supreme being, and the very thing he is doing in the picture is debating that there is a supreme being with Aristotle!

[phaedrus ut]

This is ironic given that your avatar is Plato a staunch believer in a supreme being.

And Atlantis!

Phaedrus

[Deborah]

I gave up all my supernatural beliefs and superstitions within the past decade.

How very sad, and limiting. I love the LDS Article of Faith which says "We believe all things, we hope all things..." Part of the joy of childhood is the belief in things like the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and fairies. Even though as we grow older we put these things in perspective it is still sad if we completely abandon all the magic in the world.

[LDS Guy 1986]

And Atlantis!

How does this impact the irony of someone that does not believe in a supreme being, being represented by one of the biggest defenders of a supreme being in Ancient Greece?

The irony is still there, I didn't mean to upset you only point out that you are not using the best avatar to represent you.

[Deborah]

There is a difference between magic and rites of Satan. I would not call for example the acts of the priests in Pharoahs court as magic. Those indeed were satanic imitations of God's miracles. However the world is full of magic, whether it's the joy of a child's imagination, or the beauty of a sunset or the thrill of being with someone we love. Many people have a talisman that they believe brings them luck. There is nothing evil in that. To me it is simply holding on an object that represents faith. Joseph had his talisman, and as much as the critics have mocked that, I find it very human. The seer stones were objects that didn't really have any magical powers in and of themselves, nor did the Liahona. Both were ojectifications of the faith of the user.

[LDS Guy 1986]

And Atlantis!

Phaedrus

Also there is some evidence that supports there could of been an actual city called Atlantis that did sink into the sea. There are various proposed locations but saying that Atlantis is a total myth is premature IMO, a lot of times ancient myths have a kernel of truth at the center of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

[Nathair/|\]

Then the scriptures are a silly dictionary! LOL

People are responsible for there actions but that doesn't mean that the Word of God is incorrect.

The scriptures is far more than just the OT, you still have the NT, the BoM, the D&C, and PoGP

Could you please provide references that are not uninspired Deuteronomistic interpolations from the scriptures that define magic and/or state that all magic is the power of Satan? Preferably from restoration scripture?

If they just say sorcery, that is a specific type of magic and I dealt with it in my most recent post prior to this one. Just look for the Druidic green.

Yours under the CFR'ing oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Pahoran]

How is a miracle different from magic?

It's a real shame you have to ask that question, Foxy.

But at the same time, it's encouraging that you did.

Once you learn the difference, you'll start to be in a position to start to understand how genuine believers really think.

A miracle is what happens when God consciously chooses to exercise His divine power in the natural world.

OTOH, magic is a rather vague concept (with apologies to Nathair.) When materialists and/or secularists use it, it usually means something like "whatever those superstitious religious believers do that I don't like." As such, it is a largely meaningless pejorative.

Does that help?

Regards,

Pahoran

[LDS Guy 1986]

Could you please provide references that are not uninspired Deuteronomistic interpolations from the scriptures that define magic and/or state that all magic is the power of Satan? Preferably from restoration scripture?

If they just say sorcery, that is a specific type of magic and I dealt with it in my most recent post prior to this one. Just look for the Druidic green.

Yours under the CFR'ing oaks,

Nathair /|\

There is Mormon 1:19 that implies magic is evil, "And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, andmagics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, even unto the fulfilling of all the words of Abinadi, and also Samuel the Lamanite."

Like most topics magic being Satanic is interpretation of Word of God, you can't expect God to spell everything out in the scriptures, least we have no faith like Timothy.

[zelder]

Could you please provide references that are not uninspired Deuteronomistic interpolations from the scriptures that define magic and/or state that all magic is the power of Satan? Preferably from restoration scripture?

If they just say sorcery, that is a specific type of magic and I dealt with it in my most recent post prior to this one. Just look for the Druidic green.

Yours under the CFR'ing oaks,

Nathair /|\

There is also Mormon 2:10

And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity, and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel the prophet; for behold no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land.

[Nathair/|\]

It's a real shame you have to ask that question, Foxy.

But at the same time, it's encouraging that you did.

Once you learn the difference, you'll start to be in a position to start to understand how genuine believers really think.

A miracle is what happens when God consciously chooses to exercise His divine power in the natural world.

OTOH, magic is a rather vague concept (with apologies to Nathair.) When materialists and/or secularists use it, it usually means something like "whatever those superstitious religious believers do that I don't like." As such, it is a largely meaningless pejorative.

Does that help?

Regards,

Pahoran

No need to apologize for that, mo chara. Ask any two Druids a question and you will get at least three answers. I expect that if you were to ask, say, Myrddin Emrys and Sitting Bull that question, you would get very different (though complementary) answers.

[Ron Beron]

The scriptures is far more than just the OT, you still have the NT, the BoM, the D&C, and PoGP

I cited the OT primarily because it is the foundation of the NT as well as modern scripture. If "magical" instances are found and justified in the OT and to some degree in the NT as well then it is conceivable that what you perceive as magical, i.e., satanic, is not quite that, but something far different such as folk religion which Joseph did practice as well as those in ancient times. Frankly, I think you misunderstand when and how satanic worship began and its parameters of worship. What you see as satan worship is actually pagan worship which is simply a worship of natural forces...

[LDS Guy 1986]

. Frankly, I think you misunderstand when and how satanic worship began and its parameters of worship. What you see as satan worship is actually pagan worship which is simply a worship of natural forces...

See magic isn't Satan worship, you are taking things out of context. Magic is Satan using his powers to mimic the power of God and DECEIVE people in to thinking he is God. Those who practice magic may think that there are following good, remember that Satan is a deceiver he appears as an angel to men to make them think he is God.

A good example is "faith healers", as a Mormon, I know that only the priesthood has the authority to heal the sin through the power of God. This means that faith healers of other faiths are not using the power of God to heal but magic. Does this mean that the faith healer is willingly worshiping Satan? No, it means they have been deceived by Satan to think that they are healing with the power of God when they are not.

Look at Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It they are not doing all these works through the power of God, who's power are they using?

These poor souls were decieved by Satan and were using his power instead of Gods, this power of Satan is magic according to the Scriptures.

[44Foxtrot]

It's a real shame you have to ask that question, Foxy.

But at the same time, it's encouraging that you did.

Once you learn the difference, you'll start to be in a position to start to understand how genuine believers really think.

A miracle is what happens when God consciously chooses to exercise His divine power in the natural world.

OTOH, magic is a rather vague concept (with apologies to Nathair.) When materialists and/or secularists use it, it usually means something like "whatever those superstitious religious believers do that I don't like." As such, it is a largely meaningless pejorative.

Does that help?

Regards,

Pahoran

Miracles and magic are objectively indistinguishable. They are both phenomena for which some people incorrectly claim there is no natural explanation.

However, if one claims that no natural explanation exists, then one must realize that one unfounded explanation is as good as the next, since none of these unfounded explanations can be validated by physical evidence.

[Jeff K.]

Miracles and magic are objectively indistinguishable

To Helen Keller red and yellow are objectively indistinguishable, but we know they are different.

[nicolasconnault]

Miracles and magic are objectively indistinguishable. They are both phenomena for which some people incorrectly claim there is no natural explanation.

That is incorrect. Miracles are attributed to God. Magic is attributed to man or to objects. Miracles are humbling, magic is self-gratifying and self-aggrandising. The super-hero culture that is currently prevalent is a good example of magical belief.

[LDS Guy 1986]

That is incorrect. Miracles are attributed to God. Magic is attributed to man or to objects. Miracles are humbling, magic is self-gratifying and self-aggrandising. The super-hero culture that is currently prevalent is a good example of magical belief.

Ok, I can accept this definition too.

Magic is self gratification, self gratification is disobence to God. Which means any magical power can't come from God, if it isn't from God then it is from Satan.

[Nathair/|\]

Physics is not magic, unless we have stepped back to the dark ages.

My current thinking, based on some interesting things I hear from the quantum physicists is that "the Force" is the fifth force, the Holy Grail of physics that would allow them to finally create the Unified Field Theory.

[Nathair/|\]

Strangely enough, Star Wars: A New Hope is a decent introduction to magical theory.

[DarkScythe]

yes it is good. Magic is a form of psychokinesis. All forms of psychokinesis do stem from our minds. So if your favorite vase falls on the ground for no reason, it might not be a ghost but your mind acting up.

[zelder]

yes it is good. Magic is a form of psychokinesis. All forms of psychokinesis do stem from our minds. So if your favorite vase falls on the ground for no reason, it might not be a ghost but your mind acting up.

I dont know if you are being serious or scarcastic.