Jeff K. Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Magis is most often in the eye of the beholder. The physics we use now on a day to day basis would indeed be magic of a sort one hundred or two hundred years ago. If I told you I could make you a new heart by simply taking some cells from your body, would that be magic say 75 years ago?Darn tootin it would.
frankenstein Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 almost all missionaries I know who served in areas where "vodoo" was actively practiced will say that they believe vodoo is a real. I like Jeff K response to supernatural. I have comtemplated many time, is it ever possible to turn H20 into wine without adding anything, so that all one use was simple H20.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 There are important parts of LDS belief that include inanimate objects having magic powers or able to bestow powers. Some examples include the glowing Jaredite stones, the Liahona, the Urim and Thummim/Nephite Interpreters, Joseph's Seer Stone, & Oliver's rod of nature. It seems fundamental, at the very least, that someone should have a testimony of using magic rocks as translating devices. PhaedrusWhat!?!?!The Jaradite stones are not magic, they were touched by the hand of Jehovah to give the people light while they crosses the ocean. The Liahona isn't magic it is a gift from God that guides it's holder through the power of the Holy Ghost. The Urim and Thimmim are definatly not magic because no sane Hebrew especially Abraham or Aaron would ever use magic. As far as the Seer Stones or the Rod of Nature that is kind of a grey area, could it of been magic, yes, could of it been the power of God, yes. What it can be though is both magic and miracle, it has to be one or the other. No one knows, I say it was God since the fruit of the Seer Stones (parts of the translation of the BoM) are good fruit.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Magis is most often in the eye of the beholder. The physics we use now on a day to day basis would indeed be magic of a sort one hundred or two hundred years ago. If I told you I could make you a new heart by simply taking some cells from your body, would that be magic say 75 years ago?Darn tootin it would.No it wouldn't be, it would just be ignorance. If I was to travel in time to the dark age and bring a pistol that too would be seen as magic but that isn't because the pistol is magic. It is because the people do not understand the concept of firearms or projectiles yet. In your presentation magic is simply something we do not understand yet. This is not so, we may call something we do not understand magic, but calling something magic doesn't make it magic. When I "pull" a quarter out of someone's ear they may think my trick was magic, that doesn't make it magic. Same thing when I make a penny disappear, it's a simple trick not magic. Magic is the power of satan, to do supernatural things that mimic that power of God. He can heal, he can talk in tongues, he can curse, he can do everything the Holy Ghost can. This is magic, when it is used by people they are using Satan's power to make magic.
Jeff K. Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Ignorance is simply a way of saying you don't know the mechanics of the priesthood.But God does know how the priesthood works, he knows the mechanics, indeed there is a spiritual physics we are simply unaware of because to measure it is almost impossible. Are we ignorant of the mechanics and use euphamisms that power it such as faith and "the spirit". So to a certain extent we are ignorant of the priesthood. And we may be ignorant of the power of others. We cannot see the power of the priesthood, but we can feel it.Other powers may also have be felt but not understood. We are ignorant of them also.Ignorance is not a qualifier for differentiating between magic and other forms.
todd520 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 LOL, it appears there is disagreement on the proper definition of Magic and thus the OP is impossible to answer clearly.I agree with the posts that many things of science are often perceived as magic, and thus of the devil when they are not.Question for the audience - Is water dowsing considered as magic?Water dowsing is a very old practice. I even had a relative that was quite capable in finding waterBeyond charlatans pretending to dowse, I can see no evil in the practice.
Joseph Antley Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Physics is not magic, unless we have stepped back to the dark ages.What is magic then?
David T Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Yet the doctrine is that they are a protection as anyone who goes to a TR interview will hear. Exactly what kind of protection is not stated, but my opinion is that it's protection of the spiritual well-being of the person involved and perhaps also those who closely associate. This could indeed involve physical protection from time to time imho. But certainly such protection does not come from the fabric itself but by obedience to the law upon which the blessing is predicated.Only as far as it is stated that inasmuch as one does not defile the covenants it represents, such will be "a shield and protection... against the power of the Destroyer.". - which, in my opinion, is highly symbolic, and practical.
phaedrus ut Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 The Jaradite stones are not magic, they were touched by the hand of Jehovah to give the people light while they crosses the ocean.The finger of god making stones glow is outside our present understanding of how the physical universe operates. The Liahona isn't magic it is a gift from God that guides it's holder through the power of the Holy Ghost. A navigational machine powered by a ghost again seems beyond scientific understanding.The Urim and Thimmim are definatly not magic because no sane Hebrew especially Abraham or Aaron would ever use magic. Casting lots with the Urim and Thummim is just like asking the magic 8 ball a question except you believe that a god is directing the answer. As far as the Seer Stones or the Rod of Nature that is kind of a grey area, could it of been magic, yes, could of it been the power of God, yes. What it can be though is both magic and miracle, it has to be one or the other. No one knows, I say it was God since the fruit of the Seer Stones (parts of the translation of the BoM) are good fruit.I don't make the distinction that god=miracle and other god=magic. But I understand how some people see it that way.Phaedrus
mnn727 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Is Electricity Magic? Can you explain how it works and create it?How about gravity? magnatism?No, I don't believe in magic at all. I do believe there are as of yet unexplained principles.
WalkerW Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 As Dan Peterson has noted, ...I was able to do another such seminar at Princeton with John Gager, at Princeton, on religion and magic, and I might just mention this in passing. We were trying to find out whether you could construct a coherent definition of 'magic' that differentiated it from 'religion.' So you could say, 'Well, that's magic and this is religion.' This is a live issue for a Latter-day Saint, especially a few years ago, and the upshot of this conference was that none of us there could formulate any kind of definition that really worked very well because it would catch certain things that you wanted to call 'magic' but then it would also catch the Roman Catholic mass or the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith. I mean, you just couldn't do it, so we finally decided what I had already assumed was the case, that the way you distinguish religion and magic is 'What I do is religion, what you do is magic.' Magic is a term used to define religions I don't like. And so that's about where it stands.This is where Michael Quinn ran into trouble, as Bill Hamblin pointed out.
phaedrus ut Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Is Electricity Magic? Can you explain how it works and create it?How about gravity? magnatism?No, I don't believe in magic at all. I do believe there are as of yet unexplained principles.It's amazing that 10,000 scientists would have the audacity to build something like the Large Hadron Collider to collide opposing particle beams of protons without a understanding of electricity or magnetism. It reminds me of this great textbook photo from Bob Jones University. Phaedrus
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 I don't make the distinction that god=miracle and other god=magic. But I understand how some people see it that way.That is fine but as far as the doctrine of the LDS Church goes God = miricale, satan (not other Gods) = magic.I was using LDS beliefs since the question is being asked to the LDS members.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 What is magic then?Magic is the duplication of the spiritual gifts of God by the power of Satan.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 LOL, it appears there is disagreement on the proper definition of Magic and thus the OP is impossible to answer clearly.I agree with the posts that many things of science are often perceived as magic, and thus of the devil when they are not.Question for the audience - Is water dowsing considered as magic?This is the problem as a previous poster quoted Dan Peterson saying, many use the word magic to describe any religious practice that they dislike. This applies to those who dislike the LDS Chruch, ever heard of our "magic underwear" they like to burn and make fun of?I define magic as the scriptures defines magic, the works through the power of Satan that mimic the spiritual gifts of God, to deceive and confuse men and attempt to lead us away from God.
SkepticTheist Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 As Dan Peterson has noted,This is where Michael Quinn ran into trouble, as Bill Hamblin pointed out.As I see it, it is as Hugh Nibley stated, that the notion of magic is that power lies in the object itself to perform magical functions. In true relgion, the object is a mere a symbol that can be touched that really does nothing in and of itself, but that symbol is part of our symbolic ordering by which our world is given order. Furthermore, where there is no priesthood, and someone has a spiritual gift to use a sacred implement, when the Lord needs to reveal something to those people in their preparatory stages before they accept the gospel, the Lord will intervene and reveal things and do things by way of the sacred implements using those who have those gifts. Otherwise, when someone is trying to cast a "spell" for selfish purposes and using a sacred implement, then the spiritual power being used is not in harmony with gospel principles, so at that point any unclean spirit can jump in and exercise power.So there are many issues involved whether the Lord is doing it or not when it is not by the priesthood:(1) Does the Lord have a purpose that will ultimately lead to the person or people to join the gospel(2) Is it being used for unselfish purposes(3) Does the person have the intent to perform a selfless service with it for his fellow men?While only the gift of discernment can lead one to know the true nature of the situation, and while Satan and his angels can do miracles to deceive that seem to "help " people, these are some of the questions that can be asked to "judge righteous judgment" when it comes to what can be called "magic."Ed
WalkerW Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Philosopher David Bentley Hart had some interesting things to say about "magic" in his book Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies (Yale University Press, 2009) that can be found here. The link is not meant to imply anything or make a case for a particular claim. I just remembered him discussing the matter and making some points that caused me to pause and reflect when I read them. Thought I'd throw it out there for those who are interested.
TAO Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I think the debate here is over definitions. We should ask Nathair what his definition of magic is, that we should =).
CV75 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Do you believe in magic?I believe in "La Magia De Sandro."
Ron Beron Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I define magic as the scriptures defines magic, the works through the power of Satan that mimic the spiritual gifts of God, to deceive and confuse men and attempt to lead us away from God.The OT does not specifically mention magic except for a few exceptions. They do, however, refer to arts associated with divination, necromancy, etc. In no case was magic associated with Satanism within the OT. Such associations are made among folk religions.
Ron Beron Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I believe in "La Magia De Sandro."I think it was magic when I met my wife. Still is.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I think the debate here is over definitions. We should ask Nathair what his definition of magic is, that we should =).Nathair or David Bowie... I'm waiting for him to randomly show up in the thread and post, " ."
CV75 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I think it was magic when I met my wife. Still is.Sandro must have been playing in the background...
mnn727 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Magic is the duplication of the spiritual gifts of God by the power of Satan.No offense meant but to me thats a very silly defination and even dangerous as it gets people burnt at the stake, stoned and drowned.
zelder Posted February 23, 2011 Author Posted February 23, 2011 Can the devil perform miracles? Can the devil imitate priesthood power? Can he heal, or grant spiritual gifts? Is there such a think as black magic, or a power which comes from the devil?
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