LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Excellent example! Joseph Smith witnessed a number of miracles, including the first vision and the translation of the book of Mormon, before he was baptised or received the priesthood!He was transfigured during the visions, transfiguration has nothing to do with the priesthood. It is a temporary transition from mortality to immortality to see things that can only be seen with immortal and perfect eyes. Also since where is a vision a miracle, so every time I have an inspired moment of dream that is a miracle now?A miracle is the power of God used on the Earth (through his priesthood or by the hand of God himself) to supernaturally change something (heal sick, part seas, raise dead, ect) a vision is only a form of communication usually achieved through transfiguration.CFR on Joseph Smith working miracles before receiving the Melkesadek Priesthood Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Another example was Joseph Smith when he first went to the Lord with a question...he most definitely did not have the Restored Gospel as his foundation from which he sought out God at that time, yet he had compete faith according to this Ensign article by JF McKonkie because he had the Spirit as his companion. And since we know that nonLDS can have the Spirit as a companion......Is is faith that God answers prayers not faith that Jesus is the Son of God. God will speak to any of his children that humbly seek his guidance faith in Jesus Christ or priesthood is not required. If it was then no investigator could receive that first seed of testimony that the BoM is the word of God and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his one true Church. Faith in Jesus Christ is not the same as faith that God will answer your sincere and humble prayer, these are two completely different faiths we are talking about. Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I give up....GGWelcome to the club. Link to comment
Deborah Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 It is not a false teaching, it is the doctrine of the Church taught openly in our faith. I've been a member of the church 50 years, attended Seminary, graduated from BYU where religious courses were part of the requirement and I'm telling you it is not doctrine. You are misunderstanding something somewhere and I'm not sure where. Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I've been a member of the church 50 years, attended Seminary, graduated from BYU where religious courses were part of the requirement and I'm telling you it is not doctrine. You are misunderstanding something somewhere and I'm not sure where.I guess it is where the Gospel Principles Manual is also misunderstanding, cause Chapter 22 lists both Faith, and Knowledge (aka Testimony) that Jesus is the Son of God as Gifts of the Spirit. To recieve Gifts of the Spirit one must have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which can only be obtained through Confirmation into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after one is Baptized by someone holding the Office of Priest in the Aaronic Priesthood or any office of the Melkesadek Priesthood. I am not pulling this out of thin air, it is official doctrine of the Church, if it wasn't I would say that it is. Link to comment
Calm Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 recieve Gifts of the Spirit one must have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which can only be obtained through Confirmation into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after one is Baptized by someone holding the Office of Priest in the Aaronic Priesthood or any office of the Melkesadek Priesthood. CFR please. In the chapter on the Gifts of the Spirit, it says this:Following baptism, each of us had hands laid on our heads to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we are faithful, we can have His influence continually with us. Through Him, each of us can be blessed with certain spiritual powers called gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are given to those who are faithful to Christ. Link to comment
Calm Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 God will speak to any of his children that humbly seek his guidance faith in Jesus Christ or priesthood is not required. Then true miracles can occur without the priesthood since God will speak to those who humbly seek his guidance, right? Link to comment
Deborah Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Chapter 22 lists both Faith, and Knowledge (aka Testimony) that Jesus is the Son of God as Gifts of the Spirit. To recieve Gifts of the Spirit one must have the Gift of the Holy GhostWe aren't talking about Gifts of the Spirit per se. We are talking about faith in Jesus Christ. To quote from the manual you refer to The Gift of Knowing That Jesus Christ Is the Son of God (D&C 46:13)This has been the gift of prophets and apostles who have been called as special witnesses of Jesus Christ. However, others are also given this gift. Every person can have a testimony through the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. President David O. McKay taught: Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 We aren't talking about Gifts of the Spirit per se. We are talking about faith in Jesus Christ. To quote from the manual you refer to Understand that others can feel the whisperings of the Holy Spirit without having the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost can be obtained only by the laying on of hands by those with authority but the Holy Spirit can testify to others of truths as well.More than one General Authority has talked about God using good men of other faiths to strengthen and lead people closer to Jesus Christ. The testimony of Jesus is not the same as a testimony of the restored church and all that entails. But many people outside the church have a testimony of Jesus Christ as their Savior and many of them have had this revealed by the Spirit. Of course they don't have the complete gospel with all the ordinances but it is a beginning and a foundation on which missionaries can build.Testimony is not the Gift of Faith, you have the whisperings (I already discussed how you get a small portion that cannot tarry long, when you receive the testimony that the BoM is true) which can lead you to the restored Gospel and the Gift of the Holy Ghost through which you can receive the gift of faith and the Gift of the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of Man.Leading people closer is great and a wonderful work but we are talking about Faith not getting closer to Christ (and his restored Gospel), I know that God works through non priesthood, but he does not perform miracles through them only his priesthood can do that. This has a lot to do with us being the only Church with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, whisperings are nothing compared to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. I felt the whisperings in other Churches, now I have the Gift of the Holy Ghost and through that Gift I have received the Gift of Faith and The Gift of Knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.The doctrine states Faith is a Spiritual Gift, so if knowledge (testimony) that Christ is the Son of God, the lesson says not everyone can have the Gift of this knowledge.We are the only Church with the Holy Ghost (as Joseph Smith taught and our scriptures tells us since the Holy Ghost can only reside with the True Church of Jesus Christ) so we are the only church with the Gift of Faith and the Gift of Knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God.I agree finding Christ through the Bible prepares people for the restored Gospel and to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and through that gift receive the Gift of Faith and the Gift of knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God. I will even go as far as saying that non LDS feel that they do have faith, but when they receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Gift of Faith through the Holy Ghost they will understand how that faith was the faith of the flesh not the faith through Holy Ghost revealed to man. Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 He was transfigured during the visions, transfiguration has nothing to do with the priesthood. It is a temporary transition from mortality to immortality to see things that can only be seen with immortal and perfect eyes. Also since where is a vision a miracle, so every time I have an inspired moment of dream that is a miracle now?A miracle is the power of God used on the Earth (through his priesthood or by the hand of God himself) to supernaturally change something (heal sick, part seas, raise dead, ect) a vision is only a form of communication usually achieved through transfiguration.CFR on Joseph Smith working miracles before receiving the Melkesadek PriesthoodHow conveniently you ignored my mention of the translation of the Book of Mormon. However, I'm beginning to understand your way of thinking, and you will certainly rationalise that the translation process was not miraculous... Link to comment
WalkerW Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It seems to me that too much is assumed about the earthly establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith never understood it to be a monopoly on truth, on power, on miracles, or on God. While one's knowledge and beliefs (e.g. Jesus is the Son of God, Joseph Smith is a prophet, etc.) will at some point have to be reconciled with one's desires and works (e.g. charity, love, kindness, etc.), preferring the former over the latter seems to miss out on how God will judge.For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. (D&C 137:9).Agnostic and science writer Michael Shermer (starting at 8:28) that I happen to agree with when he was on Stossel a couple months ago. I would hope that God would judge one on how they served their "fellow beings" and were thus "in the service of...God" (Mosiah 2:17). I hope one is determined as "better" just because they believed Jesus was resurrected. Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 How conveniently you ignored my mention of the translation of the Book of Mormon. However, I'm beginning to understand your way of thinking, and you will certainly rationalise that the translation process was not miraculous...Joseph Smith translated the BoM through translators (Uriumm and Thummium and the Seer Stones) not through is own abilities, he only gained the ability to translate without the aid of a translator after he had the Gift of the Holy Ghost as far as I know. Jospeh Smith couldn't tranlate without the aid of a intermediate devise because he had yet gained the gift of the Holy Ghost.Added by Edit:Also even if he had done the translation without aid from any aids, his position and calling as the Prophet of the Restoration as well as his transfiguration to see God could theoretically impart upon him the spiritual gifts needed to do his work and only that work. When the lord calls someone on his errand he provides a way for it to be completed. Even if that means that he makes an exception to his rules for men to allow his work to come forth. Joseph Smith revealed the will of the Lord unlike any prophet after him, like Moses was the greatest prophet in ancient Israel, Joseph is the greatest prophet of this dispensation of the fullness of times. Joseph could not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost until he was prepared through his calling to restore the priesthood, so he would be the exception of to the rule. God can allow exceptions to restore his priesthood, this would be a one time exception that would only last till the priesthood was restored. Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Joseph Smith translated the BoM through translators (Uriumm and Thummium and the Seer Stones) not through is own abilities, he only gained the ability to translate without the aid of a translator after he had the Gift of the Holy Ghost as far as I know. Jospeh Smith couldn't tranlate without the aid of a intermediate devise because he had yet gained the gift of the Holy Ghost.Rubbish, you don't know what you're talking about. Do some research! Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Rubbish, you don't know what you're talking about. Do some research!CFR please that Joseph Smith did not translate the BoM through the Uriumm and Thumiumm and the Seer Stones. Also even if this is wrong how do you explain away Joseph's unique position as the called prophet of the restoration. He is on an errand of the Lord whic allows him and him alone potential access to the Holy Ghost that others cannot have, there is only 1 Prophet of the restoration, Joseph was foreordained and prepared for this role in his premortal life. Link to comment
Ron Beron Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 CFR please that Joseph Smith did not translate the BoM through the Uriumm and Thumiumm and the Seer Stones. Also even if this is wrong how do you explain away Joseph's unique position as the called prophet of the restoration. He is on an errand of the Lord whic allows him and him alone potential access to the Holy Ghost that others cannot have, there is only 1 Prophet of the restoration, Joseph was foreordained and prepared for this role in his premortal life.The truth is more ambiguous. JS on occasion did use the U and T while at other times he used a Seer Stone, but he also translated only through his own power. The Maxwell Institute put out an article on this... http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=167 Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 CFR please that Joseph Smith did not translate the BoM through the Uriumm and Thumiumm and the Seer Stones. Have a look at the Joseph Smith papers, you will find them enlightening.Also even if this is wrong how do you explain away Joseph's unique position as the called prophet of the restoration. He is on an errand of the Lord whic allows him and him alone potential access to the Holy Ghost that others cannot have, there is only 1 Prophet of the restoration, Joseph was foreordained and prepared for this role in his premortal life.0Your argument is quickly falling apart. At first you say that miracles can only be performed through the priesthood. Then you say that having the Holy Ghost is the requirement for performing miracles. Finally you say that being foreordained gives you special exemptions from these rules you are inventing?I don't need to explain away anything, I'm not the one making outlandish claims, wholly unsupported by scriptures or modern-day revelations.Also, how you do account for Oliver Cowdery's temporary access to the gift of translation? Sure, he didn't manage to do it, but neither him nor the prophet had the priesthood OR the gift of the Holy Ghost then. They obtained only the Aaronic Priesthood a month later, but your requirement is that the Melchisedek Priesthood is required for the performance of miracles.Do you agree, yes or no, that the translation of the Book of Mormon was a miracle?Do you agree, yes or no, that Joseph Smith translated a large proportion of it without the Melchisedek priesthood?Do you agree, yes or no, that your assertions regarding the performance of miracles are unwarranted and possibly false? Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Finally you say that being foreordained gives you special exemptions from these rules you are inventing?I did not say this I said Joseph Smith's fore-ordination as Prophet of the Restoration COULD theoretically allow his to use the power of the Holy Ghost temporarily to translate the Book of Mormon. This applies only to Prophets of Joseph's caliber which mean Mose and Joseph Smith alone. No one else could have this potion because no one else were called to do such works as Joseph Smith and Moses were.I am not retreating from my original position, I am just presenting a defense for future claims against my position. I still feel that the translators were doing the work not Joseph Smith, but if there is evidence that is was Smith then my explanation covers that situation.Do you agree, yes or no, that the translation of the Book of Mormon was a miracle?This depends on how one defines miracle, and since we there is differing opinions on what is a miracle I cannot answer this question properly. Once we come to a consensus on what constitutes a miracle then I can answer this.Do you agree, yes or no, that Joseph Smith translated a large proportion of it without the Melchisedek priesthood?Yes, we know that Smith did not have the Melchizedek Priesthood until May 1929 right before the translation was completed. Do you agree, yes or no, that your assertions regarding the performance of miracles are unwarranted and possibly false?I agree this is a blatant violation of the forum rules, so I will not answer. Link to comment
DarkScythe Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Fore-ordination is not pre destination. And I won't be surprised that God had someone in back up just in case that Joseph Smith failed Epicly. And anyone that is willing can invite the Holy Ghost regardless of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I agree this is a blatant violation of the forum rules, so I will not answer.Which forum rules would that be? Please enlighten me once more. Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 messed up post... Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 ugh... The editing feature is making me Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 <br><i></i><u><i></i></u><i><br></i><font size="3"><font color="#2F393A"><font size="2">and this is what the Lord said concerning the spiritual stance of Sidney rigdon BEFORE knowing of the Gospel...</font></font></font><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br></font></span></i><font face="Lucida Grande"><font size="3"><font color="#2F393A"><font size="2"><i></i></font></font></font></font><i><br></i><font size="3"><font color="#2F393A"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"></font></font></font></font><br><font face="Lucida Grande"><font size="3"><font color="#2F393A"><font size="2"><font face="Georgia,"></font></font></font></font></font><br><font size="3"><font color="#2F393A"><font size="2"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial">Here Sidney is being compared to John, the greatest amoung the prophets, before his conversion and receiving the HG. I think that is quite a statement concerning the spiritual potential of, currently, non-Restoration Believers.</font></font></font></font>This is men choosen to do specific works, I agree we could have some form of spiritual gifts without the Gift of the Holy Ghost if we were called by god to RESTORE his one true church. No one had the holy ghost before the restoration so God provided a way for certain men to be able to have certian spiritual gifts before they had the gift o the holy ghost. After the restoration there is no such thugs happening since there is the priesthood on the earth. Jospeh Smith et all are the exception not the rule, they need to be the exception so they can restore the Church. Now as it was previously mentioned there is no predestination so Jospeh et all's exception is based on them accepting there callings from God to restore the Church and priesthood. The Church is restored now though so there is no way for man to recieve the god of the holy ghost without joining the one true Church. Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 This is men choosen to do specific works, I agree we could have some form of spiritual gifts without the Gift of the Holy Ghost if we were called by god to RESTORE his one true church. No one had the holy ghost before the restoration so God provided a way for certain men to be able to have certian spiritual gifts before they had the gift o the holy ghost. After the restoration there is no such thugs happening since there is the priesthood on the earth. Jospeh Smith et all are the exception not the rule, they need to be the exception so they can restore the Church. Now as it was previously mentioned there is no predestination so Jospeh et all's exception is based on them accepting there callings from God to restore the Church and priesthood. The Church is restored now though so there is no way for man to recieve the god of the holy ghost without joining the one true Church.My good brother, you are wresting the scriptures to make them say something they don't. Does you D&C hold any authority for you? If it does examine THIS verse...D&C 133:26And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.The Lord will do His work, just the way He wants to do His work. To say that He can only do His work through your church is the height of arrogance and pride, which is exactly the sin the Lord warned Ephraim about. Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 An interesting question. If the priesthood is literally the power that created the universe and its actions, are miracles then an affect of the priesthood, but not limited to priesthood holders to experience or call upon? Link to comment
semlogo Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 magic and the supernatural works on higher natural laws."Supernatural" by definition is outside of nature. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.