Ron Beron Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 See magic isn't Satan worship, you are taking things out of context. Magic is Satan using his powers to mimic the power of God and DECEIVE people in to thinking he is God. Those who practice magic may think that there are following good, remember that Satan is a deceiver he appears as an angel to men to make them think he is God. A good example is "faith healers", as a Mormon, I know that only the priesthood has the authority to heal the sin through the power of God. This means that faith healers of other faiths are not using the power of God to heal but magic. Does this mean that the faith healer is willingly worshiping Satan? No, it means they have been deceived by Satan to think that they are healing with the power of God when they are not. Look at Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."It they are not doing all these works through the power of God, who's power are they using?These poor souls were decieved by Satan and were using his power instead of Gods, this power of Satan is magic according to the Scriptures.This is beginning to sound like a "Church Lady" scenario. Just because people employ magic in their religious ritual does not mean they are worshiping satan even in a mistaken way. They are not worshiping God, true enough, but satan? The Book of Mormon discusses this in Alma 22 where Aaron teaches the king about the Great Spirit. Was the king worshiping satan because he was a believer in animism or a satanist? Clearly, he was worshiping God in the means he best understood.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 This is beginning to sound like a "Church Lady" scenario. Just because people employ magic in their religious ritual does not mean they are worshiping satan even in a mistaken way. They are not worshiping God, true enough, but satan? The Book of Mormon discusses this in Alma 22 where Aaron teaches the king about the Great Spirit. Was the king worshiping satan because he was a believer in animism or a satanist? Clearly, he was worshiping God in the means he best understood.How many times do I have to say deception isn't worship, you think you are worshiping God an doing miracles in his name but unless you are using the priesthood power (only available to his one true church) you are not using the power of hid but the deception of Satan. Being deceived by Satan does not mean you are worshiping Satan, it only means you are deceived by Satan, nothing more. Only the true church of Christ has the power of God everything else is the deception of Satan.
nicolasconnault Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Only the true church of Christ has the power of God everything else is the deception of Satan.I think you are going to find it very hard to justify this statement using LDS scriptures or quotes from GAs. The Book of Mormon only says that those who perform miracles have faith in Christ, it doesn't restrict miracles to the priesthood.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 I think you are going to find it very hard to justify this statement using LDS scriptures or quotes from GAs. The Book of Mormon only says that those who perform miracles have faith in Christ, it doesn't restrict miracles to the priesthood.To have faith you must know who Christ is you cannot know who Christ is without the restored and living Gospel.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 See magic isn't Satan worship, you are taking things out of context. Magic is Satan using his powers to mimic the power of God and DECEIVE people in to thinking he is God. Those who practice magic may think that there are following good, remember that Satan is a deceiver he appears as an angel to men to make them think he is God. A good example is "faith healers", as a Mormon, I know that only the priesthood has the authority to heal the sin through the power of God. This means that faith healers of other faiths are not using the power of God to heal but magic. Does this mean that the faith healer is willingly worshiping Satan? No, it means they have been deceived by Satan to think that they are healing with the power of God when they are not. Look at Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."It they are not doing all these works through the power of God, who's power are they using?These poor souls were decieved by Satan and were using his power instead of Gods, this power of Satan is magic according to the Scriptures.The highlighted portion is a bunch of hooey. Not all "faith healers" of other churches are using satanically inspired "magic" to heal people...Mark 938
nicolasconnault Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 To have faith you must know who Christ is you cannot know who Christ is without the restored and living Gospel.I disagree. You can come to know enough about Christ to exercise faith in Him by studying the Bible and receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost, whose mission it is to bear witness of Him and of the Father.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 The highlighted portion is a bunch of hooey. Not all "faith healers" of other religions are using satanically inspired "magic" to heal people...Way to take Mark 9:38-39 way out of context! Christ never says that the other person does or does not have the priesthood at all, he says is that his disciples should not go out an stop people (aka strip them of there agency!) to say they are casting out devils in Christ's name. Either the man did have the priesthood and was unknown to the apostles but known to Christ and using the power of god, or he wasn't a priesthood holder and was using the power of Satan for fame or fortune, and decieving the people, without more information we cannot know what this other man is, but Christ is NOT saying that people can use the power of God without the proper authority which is the priesthood. Do you not remember Simon from Acts 8:9-25?He too worked miracles without the power of God but with simple tricks and magics, people believed he had te power of God but when the Prophet Peter came and bestowed the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands, Simon knew that his tricks were nothing next to the true power of God and sought to buy the priesthood from Peter. Peter rebukes Simon and tells him to repent of this evil. Only the priesthood can use the power of God and there is no exceptions, if you are not a priesthood holder you cannot use the power and authority of God to perform miricales. Any non priesthood holder who performs miracles is not using Gods power which means he has to be using Satan's power and is being deceived into thinking it is the power of God. You can always tell by the fruits, are they seeking gain, fame, fortune, recognition, ect these are signs that the source of the power is not God. The priesthood power of God can only be used for selfless service through patience, sacrifice, and long-suffering through unfeigned love. Now non priesthood holders can pray for God to work a miracle to happen and God may or may not answer that prayer, but only priesthood has the power to work miracles by there own hands through the power of God.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Way to take Mark 9:38-39 way out of context! Christ never says that the other person does or does not have the priesthood at all, he says is that his disciples should not go out an stop people (aka strip them of there agency!) to say they are casting out devils in Christ's name. Either the man did have the priesthood and was unknown to the apostles but known to Christ and using the power of god, or he wasn't a priesthood holder and was using the power of Satan for fame or fortune, and decieving the people, without more information we cannot know what this other man is, but Christ is NOT saying that people can use the power of Gid without the proper authority which is the priesthood. Do you not remember Simon from Acts 8:9-25?He too worked miracles without the power of God but with simple tricks and magics, people believed he had te power of God but when the Prophet Peter came and bestowed the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands, Simon knew that his tricks were nothing next to the true power of God and sought to buy the priesthood from Peter. Peter rebukes Simon and tells him to repent of this evil. Only the priesthood can use the power of God and there is no exceptions, if you are not a priesthood holder you cannot use the power and authority of God to perform miricales. Any non priesthood holder who performs miracles is not using Gods power which means he has to be using Satan's power and is being deceived into thinking it is the power of God. You can always tell by the fruits, are they seeking gain, fame, fortune, recognition, ect these are signs that the source of the power is not God. The priesthood power of God can only be used for selfless service through patience, sacrifice, and long-suffering through unfeigned love. Now non priesthood holders can pray for God to work a miracle to happen and God may or may not answer that prayer, but only priesthood has the power to work miracles by there own hands through the power of God.Your pride astonishes me.God blesses those who have faith in Him and in His Son. He doesn't just bless Mormons.And your attitude towards ministers of other churches as money seeking fame whores is disgusting. The pure in heart can be found everywhere.
Senator Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 but only priesthood has the power to work miracles by there own hands through the power of God....and God may, or may not grant the miracle.
Ron Beron Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 To have faith you must know who Christ is you cannot know who Christ is without the restored and living Gospel.To follow this to its terminal conclusion can we surmise that unless a person accepts the LDS Christ then they will go to hell?
Deborah Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 To follow this to its terminal conclusion can we surmise that unless a person accepts the LDS Christ then they will go to hell?And we complain when the EV's tell us we'll go to hell because we don't believe the same Jesus they do. I think God is a little more accepting than some people.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 To follow this to its terminal conclusion can we surmise that unless a person accepts the LDS Christ then they will go to hell?Well seeing that there is no "Hell" as accepted by most Christianity in LDS the question is intristically flawed. But understanding the question to say Hell as eternal damnation and punishment I will answer as follows:No, there is no eternal punishment for those who reject the Restored Gospel/Jesus Christ. They will enter spirit prison (or closest thing to hell) since they cannot enter into paradise without the ordiances of salvation performed by the proper priesthood authority (which is only found in the LDS church). I believe (but there is no evidence for this) that if they accept they repent of there rejection in spirit prison there punishment will stop. When the day of judgement comes, all punishment ends for everyone. We are all judged according to our works. Anyone who rejects the restored gospel in this life cannot inherit celestial glory but will inherit a lessor glory. No one goes to Hell in LDS cosmology, punishment ends for everyone except Satan and the sons of perdition (who are cast into outer darkness) at the day of judgement.
semlogo Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Moroni 7:16-17 does not make using satanic powers for "good" ok. According to Moroni 7:16-17 one cannot use magic for good since nothing of the devil can be used for good only evil.There is no such thing as magic.I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe God is totally natural.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Well seeing that there is no "Hell" as accepted by most Christianity in LDS the question is intristically flawed. But understanding the question to say Hell as eternal damnation and punishment I will answer as follows:No, there is no eternal punishment for those who reject the Restored Gospel/Jesus Christ. They will enter spirit prison (or closest thing to hell) since they cannot enter into paradise without the ordiances of salvation performed by the proper priesthood authority (which is only found in the LDS church). I believe (but there is no evidence for this) that if they accept they repent of there rejection in spirit prison there punishment will stop. When the day of judgement comes, all punishment ends for everyone. We are all judged according to our works. Anyone who rejects the restored gospel in this life cannot inherit celestial glory but will inherit a lessor glory. No one goes to Hell in LDS cosmology, punishment ends for everyone except Satan and the sons of perdition (who are cast into outer darkness) at the day of judgement.Wait... so there isn't a Hell but there is a Hell?And where did this idea of Outer Darkness being after the final judgement come from? Alma makes it clear that it is the condition of evil, rebellious souls between this life and the final judgement. The kingdom of the Devil is the final abode of, not only the sons of perdition, but those who refuse the multiple opportunities to repent in this life and the next.
Calm Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Now non priesthood holders can pray for God to work a miracle to happen and God may or may not answer that prayer, but only priesthood has the power to work miracles by there own hands through the power of God.A few questions to clarify your position:Do you believe that God is forced to grant the miracle if someone has the priesthood?If not, what is the significant end result difference between a sincere nonLDS prayer and an LDS priesthood blessing if both result in the miracle?If a sincere prayer yields a miracle of a healing from God, then by what power was it done if not by God's power?Do you believe that a sincere prayer by a nonLDS accompanied by laying on of hands and anointing of oil by nonpriesthood holders is a deception of Satan's because it includes priesthood functions? And last, in the early days of the LDS Church women conducted healing and other blessings with the laying on of hands and the anointing of oil. Were they in your opinion working miracles through the power of Satan since they did not have the priesthood?
DarkScythe Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 There is no such thing as magic.I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe God is totally natural.magic and the supernatural works on higher natural laws.
nicolasconnault Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Way to take Mark 9:38-39 way out of context! Christ never says that the other person does or does not have the priesthood at all, he says is that his disciples should not go out an stop people (aka strip them of there agency!) to say they are casting out devils in Christ's name. Either the man did have the priesthood and was unknown to the apostles but known to Christ and using the power of god, or he wasn't a priesthood holder and was using the power of Satan for fame or fortune, and decieving the people, without more information we cannot know what this other man is, but Christ is NOT saying that people can use the power of God without the proper authority which is the priesthood. Do you not remember Simon from Acts 8:9-25?He too worked miracles without the power of God but with simple tricks and magics, people believed he had te power of God but when the Prophet Peter came and bestowed the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands, Simon knew that his tricks were nothing next to the true power of God and sought to buy the priesthood from Peter. Peter rebukes Simon and tells him to repent of this evil. Only the priesthood can use the power of God and there is no exceptions, if you are not a priesthood holder you cannot use the power and authority of God to perform miricales. Any non priesthood holder who performs miracles is not using Gods power which means he has to be using Satan's power and is being deceived into thinking it is the power of God. You can always tell by the fruits, are they seeking gain, fame, fortune, recognition, ect these are signs that the source of the power is not God. The priesthood power of God can only be used for selfless service through patience, sacrifice, and long-suffering through unfeigned love. Now non priesthood holders can pray for God to work a miracle to happen and God may or may not answer that prayer, but only priesthood has the power to work miracles by there own hands through the power of God.You're obviously new to this discussion board, otherwise you would have learned one important lesson by now: it's OK to be wrong, and doing so humbly will win you friends and trustworthiness.Let me now demonstrate why your notion of "only the priesthood can do miracles" is false doctrine, by using the Book of Mormon.And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith. 2 Nephi 26:13Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings. Mosiah 8:18And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Do you believe that God is forced to grant the miracle if someone has the priesthood? IMO, this question is a contradiction, and is flawed by the it's very nature.According to D&C 84 (I believe if I recall correctly) we are always ordained to the priesthood but only have the authority when we have the proper keys while guided by the Holy Ghost through patience, long-suffering, obedience, and unfeigned love. So, if one has the authority of God, they are literally doing the will of God not there own will, God is the one granting the miracle through his representative on Earth. So implying that the representative (priesthood holder) is forcing God is intristically flawed since God is the one working throught the priesthood holder when a miracle is worked. So ultimately no miracle forced upon God since he is not only the one to grant the miracle, but also the one working through his chosen representative on Earth to request the miracle, and God cannot force himself. Remember that the priesthood holder is only half of the equation too, the person seeking the miracle must also want the miracle to happen hand have sufficient faith that the miracle will happen in God's time not there time, in accordance with the will of God.If not, what is the significant end result difference between a sincere nonLDS prayer and an LDS priesthood blessing if both result in the miracle?Prayer is asking for intervention from God for the benefit of God's children, priesthood is being the vessel of the power of God on Earth to work through you to benefit God's children. If a sincere prayer yields a miracle of a healing from God, then by what power was it done if not by God's power?Do you believe that a sincere prayer by a nonLDS accompanied by laying on of hands and anointing of oil by nonpriesthood holders is a deception of Satan's because it includes priesthood functions? This is prayer not priesthood, one can do whatever they want when they pray, but there oil is not consecrated nor do they have the authority and power to lay there hands upon the heads of the sick so there "healing" is only seen as a prayer in God's eyes since they are not using consecrated oil and they do not have the authority to perform the ordinance they desire to perform. The same goes for me right now, I can lay my hand on someones head. and ask God to heal them. This is not a blessing though cause I am only a Priest (second highest office of the Aaronic Priesthood for non-lds), until I am ordained an Elder next month at Stake Conference I do not have the authority to bless people. And last, in the early days of the LDS Church women conducted healing and other blessings with the laying on of hands and the anointing of oil. Were they in your opinion working miracles through the power of Satan since they did not have the priesthood?As I have previously stated this is simply a prayer in God's eyes, he hears all our desires and while the oil may of been consecrated for the anointing of the sick you still need to hold the Melkesadek Priesthood to seal the anointing to the person. So ultimately like the previous examples this is simple prayer. I do not know all the facts of this example you speak of I have never heard of sisters anointing the sick with oil, I have heard of sisters laying hands on the sick and praying for them. This is a common Christian practice through many denominations for non priesthood persons to lay there hands on someones head or shoulders when they pray for them. Before I went to Army Basic Training (where I converted to LDS) the entire congregation of my family's (and mine at the time) church laid hands upon me to pray and ask God that he would guide me, protect me, and draw me closer to him. (Ironically he answered this prayer by leading me to the restored Gospel and the one true Church of Jesus Christ, but I doubt this is the drawing closer to God the congregation has in mind!)Now in none of these were these non authorized persons claiming to heal by the power of God (as far as I know), if they were claiming to heal by the power of God using the priesthood methods and healing did happen I would be suspicious that Satan may of played a role in it. You see this a lot with faith healers they proclaim they are casting out demons and healing people with the power of God. If they are performing miracles like this without the proper priesthood authority it is probably not the power of God but the deception of Satan.I hope these answers help you understand what I am saying better!
Calm Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 Like this article by Dallin H. Oaks on Miracles: http://lds.org/ensign/2001/06/miracles?lang=eng&query=miracleReligious practitioners have employed similar deceptions in our own day......Before we are too critical of such techniques, we should remember that we engage in similar deceptions whenever we exaggerate a happening in order to dazzle an audience into thinking we have experienced a miracle or to enhance our stature in other ways. Warning!andI will now describe two types of genuine miracles. These two fit all of the elements of the definition: they are brought about by divine power, mortals do not understand them, and mortals cannot duplicate them of themselves. First, miracles worked by the power of the priesthood are always present in the true Church of Jesus Christ.5 The Book of Mormon teaches that
Deborah Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 So ultimately no miracle forced upon God since he is not only the one to grant the miracle, but also the one working through his chosen representative on Earth to request the miracle, and God cannot force himself. I have no idea what this means. Are you saying a Priesthood holder giving a blessing is forcing God to do something?
Calm Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 I hope these answers help you understand what I am saying better!Yes, they do. I don't think you and I are that far off in our beliefs.I would not, however, phrase my belief in the power behind miracles the same way you do here: "Only the priesthood can use the power of God and there is no exceptions, if you are not a priesthood holder you cannot use the power and authority of God to perform miricales"If you had limited it to "authority" I would likely agree with you though I would like a bit more clarification on what you meant by that since I've seen people use it in different ways.At this point, I take issue primarily with the limitation of "the power of God" being used by the priesthood with no exceptions. This seems to contradict the very meaning of miracles which is something that is accomplished through divine means...and if this can be accomplished through prayer, it is a use of the power of God by an individual with faith.The article I quoted by Dallin Oaks points out that miracles done through the priesthood and miracles done through the power of faith are ultimately both from the same source since both are derived from and through faith. Priesthood blessings without faith are powerless, prayer without faith is also powerless but just as priesthood has the power of God through faith, then so does prayer make use of the power of God through faith.
44Foxtrot Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 magic and the supernatural works on higher natural laws.Do you have any evidence for this statement, or is it just an expression of your imagination?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 You're obviously new to this discussion board, otherwise you would have learned one important lesson by now: it's OK to be wrong, and doing so humbly will win you friends and trustworthiness.Let me now demonstrate why your notion of "only the priesthood can do miracles" is false doctrine, by using the Book of Mormon.And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith. 2 Nephi 26:13 Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings. Mosiah 8:18And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 I have no idea what this means. Are you saying a Priesthood holder giving a blessing is forcing God to do something?No, the question asked was does the priesthood force God to perform miracles, I said that the Priesthood is God's power on Earth through his representatives, so No the priesthood cannot force God because the priesthood power is God. Does that make more sense? I am terribly sorry for the confusion!
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