Does "the church" take too much time from families?

[Senator]

I see the acceptance of a calling simply because you don't want to not to be grounded in logic, nor is it grounded in truth, at least not God's truth as reflected in the scriptures. But again, I accept that in the case of agency.

THANK YOU!!!!

For finally acknowleging the only point I was trying to make.

I never advanced a valuation of the "rightness" or "preferability" by my initial statement. Only the legitimacy of one to make such a declaration, given the sphere of free agency we possess.

I most sincerily regret that this misunderstanding needlessly caused you to rise upon your throne of righteousnes, and launch from your ceptre, every last thunderbolt of eternal damnation.

[Jeff K.]

Don't fret it senator. I have been misunderstood, you have been misunderstood, the value of this forum is we learn to articulate with greater lucidity. I have at times changed my approach (not necessarily my mind) based on my readings here.

[LDSToronto]

There are better and more efficient ways to lose weight than exercising for two hours a day. Service also yields healthy, active, less stressed, longer life, happier conditions, better husbands and fathers, and even contributes to weight loss. So a selfish motive may not be at play so much as lack of correct information or understanding about proper weight loss and proper service.

I don't quite understand how sitting on a couch doing home teaching, or sitting in a meeting for 90 minutes a few times per week, or sitting and counseling with people helps anyone lose weight. However, that wasn't the thrust of my question.

H.

[LDSToronto]

If one does a quick look at the term valid one finds [it means] well grounded in logic or truth or having legal force; "a valid inference"; "a valid argument"; "a valid contract"

Well, I guess we've gotten somewhere.

Invalid reason: "I don't want to be the ward mission leader because tigers will eat me", especially in places where tigers don't co-exist with humans.

Valid reason: "I don't want to be the ward mission leader because I won't enjoy it and I want some time to myself to do things I find more enjoyable. Doing things that I don't enjoy brings me misery. I don't want misery"

You may not *like* the reason, but it is a perfectly good reason to turn an opportunity for service down.

I dare say we will work much harder in the Celestial Kingdom than we do here, and I dare say it may even be more difficult. Those who consider the work here "too hard" (without the question of balance in the family) would probably be miserable in the Celestial Kingdom, they may find it too difficult for them to remain in such a difficult work environment.

Well, that pretty much sells me on one of the lesser kingdoms...

H.

[SilverKnight]

It is also a rejection of Christ himself because they give in to the natural man which is an enemy to God.

They would not be happy in the Celestial Kingdom either. Since the glory comes with the work. All rise and fall to the kingdoms they are most comfortable with.

When you say "no" and your reasons are selfish, then you have rejected at least one kingdom.

Oh brother.

Perhaps you should inform the lazy louts in the church that each time the skip a meeting they drop one kingdom of glory.

Now do you reject it permanently? No sometimes people mature. But behind every decision should be the understanding what you are rejecting and why. The context if you will.

Hate to tell you this, faith without works is dead.

You will not inherit what you cannot show faith for.

And no, we know certain requirements come to the for in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, that is made manifest in the temple. And an unwillingness to meet those requirements means that you will not enter the Celestial Kingdom to be with Heavenly Father. The temple ordinances are very clear on that point.

A God that boots you out of heaven because you'd rather go to the movies with your kid than slog through another church meeting is not a God I'm not too interested in pleasing, much less interested in living in his neighborhood.

Seems like the Celestial Kingdom will be a very small gated community.

I am not sure how the repentance process might play in the next life. But my understanding is that you are the same man there that you are now. And you will be just as selfish and just as self interested and just as willing to reject Christ. Though I cannot say for sure, I would not denounce the atonement in this life with a hope for the next. If you reject God here, I know of nothing that will entice you to accept God there.

I'll say it once again for you: in my opinion, saying no to church assignments does not constitute sinning/rejecting Christ/rejecting God.

[SilverKnight]

Not much sympathy here.

I have several callings and I did and have embarked upon an exercise program.

As a Stake Media Relations rep (a tough job in CA), Temple Worker (every Saturday night), teaching in seminary (mostly subst. for a number of people), and teaching English to the Spanish Ward on Thursday nights, tutoring ward youth on Tuesdays. I get up at 4 AM with my son and we have great quality time as we work out and talk about school and yes, my the other stuff is more important than my present exercise program because I know I can change that schedule. And prior to beginning this I never got up that early in the AM unless I had to.

Wow, that earns you at least 100 acres in the Celestial Kingdom.

If only the rest of us could approach your level of righteousness.

"My heaven will be a big heaven, and I will walk through the front door."

-Peter Gabriel

[MorningStar]

I think it can take away too much time if you let it. First of all, when the bishop asks if there is anything in your life that would make it difficult to serve, you need to speak up. Second, if you accept a calling, you need to set boundaries with people when it comes to meetings. Make it clear that you're not going to stay later than a certain hour. If people are late, tough. They'll have to learn to be more punctual and respect your time. I thought one of the guys who did the ward bulletin was great. He told people right away, "If you don't let me know by Thursday night, it's not going in the bulletin." This was to prevent his calling from interfering with family time and date night with his wife.

When I was choir president and the choir director wanted help making reminder calls, I told her I needed the list the night before I wouldn't be doing it. Calling me in the middle of the day on a Saturday and expecting me to do it right then doesn't work for me. Well, she called on a Saturday and it was our anniversary, so she got to do it by herself. I had 5 callings for a while including the Enrichment committee. I didn't take on any assignments that would be too overwhelming with my pregnancy and after my daughter was born. If you do get overwhelmed, then you need to make it known.

[CV75]

I don't quite understand how sitting on a couch doing home teaching, or sitting in a meeting for 90 minutes a few times per week, or sitting and counseling with people helps anyone lose weight.

The whole point of weight loss, as presented in your remarks, is to become a better husband and father by becoming healthier, more active, less stressed, prone to longevity, happier, etc., not just to lose weight per se. The better weight loss plans have a mental/attitudinal and dietary component as well as an exercise component. To put exercise over mind, diet and spirituality is just a poor way to approach it.

Selfless service can have a significant effect on several aspects of weight loss. Even the more sedentary kinds you mention are an effective countermeasure to the root psycho-social-emotional / spiritual contributors to an unhealthy weight. These contributors, such as anger, depression, idleness, stress, isolation, poor self image / self-doubt, fear, indecision, codependence, etc. are often accompanied with habitual or ritual overeating, too little physical activity and/or hormone imbalances that lead to the build-up of fat.

[Jeff K.]

Quote

I dare say we will work much harder in the Celestial Kingdom than we do here, and I dare say it may even be more difficult. Those who consider the work here "too hard" (without the question of balance in the family) would probably be miserable in the Celestial Kingdom, they may find it too difficult for them to remain in such a difficult work environment.

Well, that pretty much sells me on one of the lesser kingdoms...

For some the lower kingdoms are a very easy sell. No one said being in the celestial kingdom or attaining it would be easy.

[SilverKnight]

For some the lower kingdoms are a very easy sell. No one said being in the celestial kingdom or attaining it would be easy.

Is such a tiny proportion of God's children 'making it' just fine with you?

If the Celestial Kingdom is the place of hard-work, sacrifice, and exclusivity you make it out to be, why would anyone want to go there?

It seems like a much better place to end up would be one of the lesser kingdoms - places where you can rest, relax and spend the remainder of eternity in pursuits of leisure with your family and friends.

If the Celestial Kingdom is really a Celestial Sweatshop, with endless church meetings and temple sessions, populated with a tiny handful of self-righteous zealots - count me out.

[Calm]

I don't quite understand how sitting on a couch doing home teaching, or sitting in a meeting for 90 minutes a few times per week, or sitting and counseling with people helps anyone lose weight.

During that time they are not eating...which is always a good thing when trying to lose weight

[Calm]

For some the lower kingdoms are a very easy sell. No one said being in the celestial kingdom or attaining it would be easy.

And here I could have sworn someone did say "For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light."

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 23 February 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:

It is also a rejection of Christ himself because they give in to the natural man which is an enemy to God.

They would not be happy in the Celestial Kingdom either. Since the glory comes with the work. All rise and fall to the kingdoms they are most comfortable with.

When you say "no" and your reasons are selfish, then you have rejected at least one kingdom.

Oh brother.

Perhaps you should inform the lazy louts in the church that each time the skip a meeting they drop one kingdom of glory.

Depends on why they skipped now doesn't it?

Quote

Now do you reject it permanently? No sometimes people mature. But behind every decision should be the understanding what you are rejecting and why. The context if you will.

Hate to tell you this, faith without works is dead.

You will not inherit what you cannot show faith for.

And no, we know certain requirements come to the for in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, that is made manifest in the temple. And an unwillingness to meet those requirements means that you will not enter the Celestial Kingdom to be with Heavenly Father. The temple ordinances are very clear on that point.

A God that boots you out of heaven because you'd rather go to the movies with your kid than slog through another church meeting is not a God I'm not too interested in pleasing, much less interested in living in his neighborhood.

Seems like the Celestial Kingdom will be a very small gated community.

That of course is thoughtless frustration talking. The Celestial Kingdom may indeed be very small in comparison to the east at which other kingdoms are open to people. Almost every vision speaks of how narrow tht entrance is, of how many are in the "other" buildings, and of how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.

You can project all kinds of connotations regarind "movie with kid" or any other disparaging remark. If you are not interested in a God that requires sacrifice in order to build the kingdom, you will not be interested in a kingdom that requires great effort to build and obtain. These are personal choices.

[Jeff K.]

And here I could have sworn someone did say "For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light."

Relative to the yoke of sin, I would say that is incredibly true.

[Calm]

Relative to the yoke of sin, I would say that is incredibly true.

I would agree, but that is not the limit of Christ's yoke as generally taught in the LDS faith. For example, from the NT manual:

What does it mean to take Christ

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 24 February 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

For some the lower kingdoms are a very easy sell. No one said being in the celestial kingdom or attaining it would be easy.

Is such a tiny proportion of God's children 'making it' just fine with you?It seems like a much better place to end up would be one of the lesser kingdoms - places where you can rest, relax and spend the remainder of eternity in pursuits of leisure with your family and friends.

I understand and accept agency. The alternative of course is to reject it. Is that fine with you?

If the Celestial Kingdom is the place of hard-work, sacrifice, and exclusivity you make it out to be, why would anyone want to go there?

Perhaps you don't understand the Celestial Kingdom. It is incredibly happy, it is productive, it progresses, and we have great joy. It is not the romantic versions of the Elysian fields or some place where harps are played and we are all "at our ease". Do you believe the kingdom of God stops progress or accelerates it? Have you never taken joy in hard work and sacrifice? There are times when I miss working on a farm and seeing things grow after a season of intense work. It is a thing of beauty.

If the Celestial Kingdom is really a Celestial Sweatshop, with endless church meetings and temple sessions, populated with a tiny handful of self-righteous zealots - count me out.

A sweatshop precludes any reward and is inaccurate. Maybe you just don't like work?

[Jeff K.]

I would agree, but that is not the limit of Christ's yoke as generally taught in the LDS faith. For example, from the NT manual: http://lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-10-take-my-yoke-upon-you-and-learn-of-me?lang=eng&query=my+yoke+easy

Yes, but much of the work we do is without the blessings being known to us immediately so the work is sometimes faith based and hard. When we see the blessings of the work we produce, then the work becomes easy and wonderful. The work does not change, but our attitude towards it does.

[Jeff K.]

What is a yoke? (Display the picture of Mary Fielding and Joseph F. Smith and point out the yoked oxen in the picture. Explain that a yoke is a frame or bar that can be placed on one or two people or animals pulling or carrying a heavy load. The yoke balances the burden and makes it easier to manage. In addition to its literal meaning, the concept of a yoke also appears in many scriptures as a metaphor for bondage or servitude; see Jeremiah 28:2; Alma 44:2.) What does it mean to take Christ

[SilverKnight]

The Celestial Kingdom may indeed be very small in comparison to the east at which other kingdoms are open to people. Almost every vision speaks of how narrow tht entrance is, of how many are in the "other" buildings, and of how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I have no interest in a God who intends only to save a tiny fraction of his children.

I don't know many people, mormons included, who want to hear how 'hard', 'narrow', or 'difficult' it is to get into to heaven.

If you are not interested in a God that requires sacrifice in order to build the kingdom, you will not be interested in a kingdom that requires great effort to build and obtain.

Me and everyone else.

How many people, your fellow mormons even, do you think share your bleak idea of the afterlife?

It is incredibly happy, it is productive, it progresses, and we have great joy.

We?

Who all 8 of you?

A sweatshop precludes any reward and is inaccurate. Maybe you just don't like work?

A sweatshop is a place where you work all day for someone else, and rarely see your family.

[Jeff K.]

I have no interest in a God who intends only to save a tiny fraction of his children.

I don't know many people, mormons included, who want to hear how 'hard', 'narrow', or 'difficult' it is to get into to heaven.

But He is interested in you. And as limited as you might be, he will provide all the work and love you need, if you only decide to exercise (dare I say the word "work") to develop it.

Me and everyone else.

How many people, your fellow mormons even, do you think share your bleak idea of the afterlife?

Everyone wants to get to heaven but no one wants to work there, is that it? Pity. It is a shame you feel work is a negative thing, when in fact work whose results you can readily see is one of the greatest of blessings. I sometimes wish I could see the results of the work I put into my family, the work I put into helping others, but I cannot see the future. So I do the work in faith allowing the Lord to guide me.

You seem to think the Celestial Kingdom is a hammock in Hawaii. How very nihilist and sad. It is so much more than you can imagine.

Quote

A sweatshop precludes any reward and is inaccurate. Maybe you just don't like work?

A sweatshop is a place where you work all day for someone else, and rarely see your family.

Do you know what a family is? Can you see the lines of your fathers and their fathers as you all work together to build your family? And you call being together in such a quest or endeavor a sweatshop? Tis a pity, but maybe one day you will understand.

[SilverKnight]

But He is interested in you. And as limited as you might be, he will provide all the work and love you need, if you only decide to exercise (dare I say the word "work") to develop it.

I agree - though I think we differ in what that 'exercise' entails.

Everyone wants to get to heaven but no one wants to work there, is that it?

Perhaps it is.

You make it sound like it's an awful lot of work to get there.

I disagree, and say its very easy to get there, and requires only Faith in Christ, a mere particle at that.

Most Christians would agree with me.

Pity. It is a shame you feel work is a negative thing, when in fact work whose results you can readily see is one of the greatest of blessings. I sometimes wish I could see the results of the work I put into my family, the work I put into helping others, but I cannot see the future. So I do the work in faith allowing the Lord to guide me.

I don't think there is much point in debating this any further.

I am a universalist - so much so that I fall outside the mormon orthodoxy into doctrinal no mans land.

You seem to be a pretty strict exclusionist, so there's no way we're ever going to come to any sort of consensus.

Back to the OP:

I still say any LDS person who feels a certain calling or assignment is going to too much of a burden or too demanding on their time should refuse it and not feel the slightest bit guilty about it.

Your family and personal happiness is far more important than the hours you log inside a church building.

[Jeff K.]

You make it sound like it's an awful lot of work to get there.

I have never found anything worthwhile to be easy to obtain.

I disagree, and say its very easy to get there, and requires only Faith in Christ, a mere particle at that

Faith without work is dead of course.

I still say any LDS person who feels a certain calling or assignment is going to too much of a burden or too demanding on their time should refuse it and not feel the slightest bit guilty about it.

Your family and personal happiness is far more important than the hours you log inside a church building.

You and I have no disagreement on that point in the context of the quote. I do not believe in trite dismissa simply because "we want to". Never have. Anymore than I would say refusing charity simply because "we don't want to" is sufficient reason not to.