Does "the church" take too much time from families?

[LDSToronto]

I am curious as to what people would be doing with their time if they were down to only 3 hours a week and all in one day and we had the rest of our time to do what we wanted.

What would you desire to do?

What is a more realistic prediction of what you would end up doing.

Exercise more with my kids and wife

Read more

Join a sports league

Bike ride more

Go on more extended day trips

Start my masters degree

Pursue my photographic hobbies

Write

Volunteer with an organization that helps the needy

H.

[LDSToronto]

My question ran deeper than that. I wonder if we (as Mormons) spend so much time in meetings, that we rarely actually get out to serve. I mean we spend much more time talking about it than acting on it. I remember one sister in the middle of a meeting saying, "how about we stop talking and go do it right now" - so we ended the meeting and went to work. It was great.

This is *exactly* how I feel. I feel we could quite literally run the church with as few as one stake meeting every month and one ward meeting every couple of weeks. Imagine the freedom to pursue activities that benefited your communities?

H.

[CV75]

What would you desire to do?

If it is truly a passion worth realizing, we would already be doing it no matter what. If we're not doing it, it's either not a passion, it's not worthwhile, or it is beyond our accountability to realize.

[blooit]

If it is truly a passion worth realizing, we would already be doing it no matter what. If we're not doing it, it's either not a passion, it's not worthwhile, or it is beyond our accountability to realize.

I'm not sure I agree my friend. I mean look at that schedule, if you actually do the math, there aren't many gaps, and those are filled with prayer, home teaching, dinner, scripture study. A while back my president and I were talking about this (very nicely - after our third presidency meeting in the same week) and I sat down and wrote down my schedule and we could see that I had exactly (count'em) 12 hours of time that week to spend with my family, and those presidency meetings had taken 8 of them. So with the 4 that were left, could these things already be happening - not sure.

Well - I'm making this sound more and more like a complaint session, but what I am really trying to get at is that I think as a culture we are meeting too much and doing exactly what church leadership has advised us not to do. Families need quality and quantity - and we are taught to "be at the crossroads" - and to "make the time for family" , but culturally we are getting in our own way and making it nearly impossible for them to do that. Personally I expect more than advice in the next couple decades - maybe a threat of excommunication for holding too many meetings ??

(In defense of my president, he made drastic adjustments and is one of the most family friendly leaders I've ever had)

[LDSToronto]

If it is truly a passion worth realizing, we would already be doing it no matter what. If we're not doing it, it's either not a passion, it's not worthwhile, or it is beyond our accountability to realize.

Do you only do things that are a passion for you? Do you only pursue your passions and nothing else?

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Well, he got that wrong, because if a faithful LDS puts God first, then s/he will have to put God's work first (i.e. callings). The order is (should be) 1)Family 2)Anything else you care to prioritize.

Anyone recall the old 'Family First' motto?

H.

I would totally disagree here, remember Abraham he put God before family, when he obeyed God's command and almost sacrifices Isaac. Your relationship with God is always first, since that is the only relationship that will bring you salvation. Part of your relationship with God is obeying his commandments, one of those commandments is caring for your family. Your personal relationship with God always has to be first otherwise your will never be able to properly lead and have positive relationships with your family or your callings.

Family is First, and the best way to keep Family First is to keep your relationship with God strong so he blesses you with the wisdom, courage, and patience to raise a righteous and happy family.

I think your problem here is you think that the statement made was placing God above Family, I disagree, I say God is first, because without God there is no family!

[LDSToronto]

I would totally disagree here, remember Abraham he put God before family, when he obeyed God's command and almost sacrifices Isaac.

Abraham is a special case (father of the covenant, all that stuff)... It's unlikely that God will ever tell me to kill one of my kids.

Your relationship with God is always first, since that is the only relationship that will bring you salvation. Part of your relationship with God is obeying his commandments, one of those commandments is caring for your family.

I can care for my family without God telling me I have to care for my family. Lot's of people do it every single day without God's help. Mormons aren't better at parenting than non-Mormons.

Your personal relationship with God always has to be first otherwise your will never be able to properly lead and have positive relationships with your family or your callings.

Perhaps you can elaborate, because I really don't understand this point. I am not a better parent or husband than, say, my brother-in-law who is not a member of the church. He has a positive relationship with his wife and kids, as I do with my wife and kids. I know lot's and lot's of great parents and families who are not members of the church. I also know lot's of families who really suck at being families, in the church.

So really, I need an explanation, because I'm not getting it...

I think your problem here is you think that the statement made was placing God above Family, I disagree, I say God is first, because without God there is no family!

So God is not above the family, but he is first?

H.

[CV75]

I think as a culture we are meeting too much and doing exactly what church leadership has advised us not to do.

I think we have more power over the influence of our cultures than we sometimes give ourselves credit for. It's too easy to defer or attribute to someone or something else the running of one's life. Ultimately we are responsible for our schedules, make our choices and live with them.

[Jeff K.]

I think the issue is being misread. You are serving God (ie making God first) by keeping a strong family. The method by which you do that is entirely up to the spirit which guides you. It may mean serving more or it may mean serving less.

[CV75]

Do you only do things that are a passion for you? Do you only pursue your passions and nothing else?

As I think I pointed out in my comment, if I'm not doing things that are a passion for me, they are either not enough of a passion, or I've determined that they are not worthwhile passions, or they would be beyond my accountability/ability/stewardship/wisdom/etc. to realize them (I haven't experienced this limitation yet). But I won't blame a schedule as if I'm helpless about anything about it (I'm not saying the OP is doing this!).

[LDSToronto]

As I think I pointed out in my comment, if I'm not doing things that are a passion for me, they are either not enough of a passion, or I've determined that they are not worthwhile passions, or they would be beyond my accountability/ability/stewardship/wisdom/etc. to realize them (I haven't experienced this limitation yet). But I won't blame a schedule as if I'm helpless about anything about it (I'm not saying the OP is doing this!).

OK, but you still haven't answered the question - are you passionate about everything you do, or are there things you do for which you have no passion? Clearly you feel as though anything you aren't pursuing is not something you feel passionate about.

An example from my own life - I drive my kids to all of their activities. I am not passionate about driving, or driving kids to activities, and while I am happy that my kids are happy, I'd be happier if public transit could get them where they needed to be. I'm also not passionate about my kids going to their activities; but, I can't deny them happiness and a social life.

So why do I do it? Not because of passion, but because of responsibility and obligation.

Another example. I love aikido and studied it for about a year as a teenager, but I dropped it to pursue another martial art. I've always wanted to study it again. There is one aikido dojo in town, but two out of three weekly adult classes would conflict with regular church meetings. Do I have passion for aikido? I think so. But my obligation and responsibility, not to mention the constant teachings about sacrifice and consecration prevent me from asking for a release from my calling so that I can pursue my passion for aikido.

I think that passion is one motivator, but I also think, that as adults, we have a strong sense of responsibility and obligation to do things that we may not necessarily want to do, but necessarily have to do.

H.

[CV75]

we have a strong sense of responsibility and obligation to do things that we may not necessarily want to do, but necessarily have to do.

I consider "a strong sense of responsibility and obligation" a form of passion, much as I do sacrifice, generosity, delayed gratification, putting someone else's needs before one's own, doing something for someone they cannot do themselves, helping another realize their own worthwhile passion, etc. I feel we "have to do them" because we love the option we have chosen, the people we are doing them for, or the Master. Not to be overly dramatic about it, Christ, despite expressing His reticence, drank the bitter cup out of the stronger passion, value assessment and ability. On a less dramatic scale, anything we are doing, or occupy ourselves with doing, is a matter of choice and so ultimately reflects our passion, what we value as worthwhile, and our resources and abilities.

So when we talk about how much time we are spending in meetings, and what we would otherwise rather be doing, the decision of what to actually do is a matter of passion, how worthwhile the choice is to us, and our resources and ability to act accordingly. Passion, worth and ability are also relative, and they can manifest themselves in degrees; they are not just either "on" or "off." So whatever we are doing, we have decided it is best even if it is resentfully caving in to or submissively accepting someone else's priorities.

So I don't answer a question like yours in terms of passion alone, because it doesn't operate separately from the other two factors. But I can say that I don't do anything I don't have passion for, given how worthwhile it is and my ability to carry it out. Also I can say that doing anything resentfully or against my will isn't worth doing, so I don't do those things.

[OUmd]

You know that you can say 'no' to any of that stuff, right? There's great power and freedom in that simple word. The church does put out a demanding schedule of activities, but it can only be partially blamed if you don't prioritize your life.

Now, if it's guilt you are feeling, that's another matter, but if it's just an inability to say no, well, try it and see what happens.

H.

What if it's guilt? I think that IS the problem. In the vast majority of cases when I just "say no" I actively have to surpress feelings of guilt. I would be interested in knowing how saying no doesn't lead to guilt within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have never been able to accomplish this, and merely have tried to learn to accept that guilt will come when I say "no".

[SkepticTheist]

What if it's guilt? I think that IS the problem. In the vast majority of cases when I just "say no" I actively have to surpress feelings of guilt. I would be interested in knowing how saying no doesn't lead to guilt within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have never been able to accomplish this, and merely have tried to learn to accept that guilt will come when I say "no".

I think that people should seek out personal revelation from the Lord when callings are particularly demanding and are taking a toll on one's family. I think that a person has a right to know how the Lord feels about a bishopric extending too many callings to a family, when it is one's own life that it is affecting. I think that we have a duty to bring up these kinds of issues to a bishop and voice the concerns. I mean, perhaps the first action should not be to ask to be released, but rather at first put the issue before the bishop and ask for consideration about how much time the callings take and how demanding the callings are, and that it is taking a toll on the family. If the bishop is not sympathetic and is not taking those kind of concerns seriously, I think at that point, a person is justified to simply ask to be released. I think people also have a right to personal revelation about whether a calling is truly inspired if it is going to be especially demanding. I personally feel that if one spouse in a marriage has a particularly demanding calling, that the other spouse should not be burdened with a demanding calling. Bishops don't always necessarily think about stuff like this unless people bring them up as concerns.

Ed Goble

[rongo]

Here are some wonderful statements from a series of leadership meeting in 1990, when the budget program was discontinued and drastic reductions in time and money commitments from members were emphasized. Note President Packer's concern that local leaders would "prefer the old way" and resist this call. Which is exactly what has happened after 21 years.

I apologize for the length of this, but think that many on this thread will enjoy and appreciate this.

Boyd K. Packer,

[ERMD]

Rongo, that is great information. I'm going to carefully scrutinize those quotes and likely take some of them to ward council in 2 weeks.

Thanks

[sjdawg]

A family in my previous ward was in a similar situation to the OP. They had a large family with diverse hobbies and many time pressure. They made the decision to partially withdraw from their callings and the YM/YW program to pursue their other activities and be able to spend time together as a family. The children were gymnasts with Olympic calibre talent and aspirations. Most evenings were spent training. The parents both ended up getting jobs at the gym in order to be able to financially support their children and to be able to spent time together with them as they pursued their dreams.

The ward was less than supportive of this decision. I sat in many ward council meetings as the leaders of the ward spoke about the incorrect priorites of this family. It was seen as such a travesty that this family rarely made it out to YM/YW activities and the kids were painted as problem children. The reality is that this family was able to spend a lot of time together, the kids were good, kind children and they were certainly learning the value of hard work.

I have had my own issues with the time requirements of being fully active in the church.(somewhere on here is a thread about them.) Yes we can all make decisions to say no to callings or meetings but when you are taught from birth that such callings come directly from God such decisions don't come easily. I am now out of the church and for me it is working great. I still make time to give service but it is no longer to the LDS Church. I spend lots of quality time with my family. I am pursuing more education. I understand that path isn't for everyone (especially not those on this site) but it is working for me. Happier than I have ever been.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Abraham is a special case (father of the covenant, all that stuff)... It's unlikely that God will ever tell me to kill one of my kids.

Once again I would disagree completely, Abraham is no more a mortal man then we are. Neither was Job, we should be ready to sacrifice or lose everything if it so be the will of the Lord. If we try to save our lives we lose it, if we lose our lives for Christ we save it. This is a slippery slope here, once you start assuming God will never ask difficult things of you like he did Abraham or think he will never allow you to be tried as severe as Job was, you allow a foothold for Satan to deceive you, in my opinion

I can care for my family without God telling me I have to care for my family. Lot's of people do it every single day without God's help. Mormons aren't better at parenting than non-Mormons.

I disagree, I believe that plenty of good people provide excellently for there children psychically and emotionally every day, but without the restored Gospel they are not providing for there Children spiritually. You need to provide for the physical, spiritual, and emotional needs of your family, without the Restored Gospel you cannot do this completely.

Perhaps you can elaborate, because I really don't understand this point. I am not a better parent or husband than, say, my brother-in-law who is not a member of the church. He has a positive relationship with his wife and kids, as I do with my wife and kids. I know lot's and lot's of great parents and families who are not members of the church. I also know lot's of families who really suck at being families, in the church.

I never said that Mormons are automatically better parents, just because you have access to and accept the truth of the restored Gospel doesn't mean it is taught and followed in your house. I know that my family struggles with this just like all do, we do our best though to read scripture every night, have family home evening (even though it is only me and my wife right now), and follow the commandments as a family. Without this you cannot have a proper family, you can have a loving family, but remember the family is an duty from God without God there is no family.

So God is not above the family, but he is first?

Yes, just like breathing is not above eating or drinking in order to survive, but breathing is the first thing you must do, if you don't breath you can't eat or drink.

God is not above the family or your callings (since he made your family and preordained you to the callings), but he is the first thing you should seek so you can properly do the other two things.

[Yirgacheffe]

Sunday 9:00-12:00 - 3 hour block (Dad teaches Elder's quorum, Mom teaches young women's lesson)

Sunday 12:00-3:00 - Dad to another ward for ward conference

Sunday 1:00 - Mother to Choir

Sunday 2:00 - Mother to YW Laurel's Presidency Mtg.

Sunday 3:00 - Hometeachers Visit our home

Sunday 4:00 - Dad to Aaronic Priesthood Council

Sunday 6:30 - Dad to Stake Youth Committee mtg.

Just wondering how many of these things happen every Sunday? The 3hr block, happens every Sunday, and 1hr is Sacrament Meeting, yes? Where do all the kids go the other 2 hrs?

[Jeff K.]

Every Sunday for us

Sunday 9:00-12:00 - 3 hour block (Sometimes I teach HP quorum, Mom teaches young women's lesson sometimes... Sunday school is shared among three people, all good teachers)

Sunday 1:00 - Mother and daughter to Choir

Sunday 4:00 - Dad to Aaronic Priesthood Council

The rest doesn't happen every Sunday

Sunday 12:00-3:00 - Dad to another ward for ward conference (only if you are on the High Council and only a couple of times a year)

Sunday 2:00 - Mother to YW Laurel's Presidency Mtg. (Maybe once a month or twice but no more)

Sunday 3:00 - Hometeachers Visit our home (once a month)

Sunday 6:30 - Dad to Stake Youth Committee mtg. (not that often, once a month, maybe twice and it depends on your calling in either High Council or ward leadership--- If you are called to high council you usually remove all of your ward leadership callings

[LDS Guy 1986]

Just wondering how many of these things happen every Sunday? The 3hr block, happens every Sunday, and 1hr is Sacrament Meeting, yes? Where do all the kids go the other 2 hrs?

There is nursery or primary for children over 18months, children 12 and older have priesthood(boys) or young women.

[semlogo]

The Church CAN take too much time from your family if you let it. Ultimately you have to decide what's right for you and put your foot down and say "We're staying home and not attending that leadership meeting. We need family time."

[SilverKnight]

The first piece of advice I would give to anyone joining the church or becoming reactivated is to learn to say "no" to those things you don't have time to do.

Being able to say no often means the difference between happiness and misery in the church.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The first piece of advice I would give to anyone joining the church or becoming reactivated is to learn to say "no" to those things you don't have time to do.

Being able to say no often means the difference between happiness and misery in the church.

IF I feel my new calling is to time consuming I will tell them that I can no longer do it. I doubt it will come to that but we shall see huh.

I hear you though SK, don't be afraid to say no. But don't just say no, becuase you just dont want to serve.

[Senator]

But don't just say no, becuase you just dont want to serve.

Actually, I find that a very legitimate reason to say no.