How many LDS deities?

[Pahoran]

It is ludicrous to apply the LDS idea of exaltation to Christian teaching.

Since "the LDS idea of exaltation" is a "Christian teaching" by definition, you have a strange idea of what is "ludicrous."

Regards,

Pahoran

[thesometimesaint]

saemo:

What is so ludicrous about wanting to being perfected and one like Jesus and The Father are one?

John 17:20-23

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[cion]

cion:

You have asked at least three questions.

How many deities are there? Unknown.

How many Gods are there? Gods many and Lords many. But to us there is but one God, and one Lord.

How many Gods do we worship? Only one. We worship God the Father; through Jesus the Christ; by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Wait a second. You are just muddying the water here.

Deity = God or the essence of God

You are trying to look at multiple definitions of God when you know as well as I do we are talking about the Supreme Being type or Deity - the great being in the sky that we worship, you know - that kind of thing. We are not talking about some obscure god in an alternate universe or even Abraham, who has reached god status according to D&C:132:37. No, we are talking about the Deity of this world that desires humans to worship him/her.

How many Gods do we worship is the same (in this thread) as asking how many Gods (with a capital G) are in LDS theology or how many deities.

You say there is but one God that we worship. We only worship Heavenly Father? Really?

Worship means:

[Mark Beesley]

Aside from God the Father (Heavenly Father), what deities are there to talk about?

Define deity.

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

The concept of deity is inclusive of others besides God The Father.

Let US make man in OUR image and likeness is not my saying it it is Moses in the Book of Genesis. There are Gods many and Lords many isn't my saying it it is the Apostle Paul's. Ye are Gods is not my saying it it is Jesus the Christs in the Book of John. We are to become perfect and one with God as Jesus the Christ is is not my saying it it Jesus the Christ in the words of the Apostle John.

You are beset with Gods. You are a God yourself and you don't even know it.

There is only one answer to that question. We worship God the Father, through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost. Whether there are other deities/Gods, capital G or lower case, is none of my concern. My only concern is with God.

I would say that an indispensable ingredient of worship is prayer to. I do not pray to any but The Father, as per instruction by Jesus the Christ. I do so through Jesus the Christ as per instruction by Jesus the Christ. The only way that my prayers are more than just words that get stuck in the ceiling is by the power of the Holy Ghost. I know of no other way.

I would say 3 Gods in one Godhead just like it talks about in the Bible.

[cion]

I would say 3 Gods in one Godhead just like it talks about in the Bible.

So the answer is 3 Gods. The structure of Godhead is ancillary to the essence of the Gods themselves. There are 3 Gods - three separate beings with bodies (1 being spirit). Each of the three different beings has an individual spirit, brain, and heart.

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

Close, but I don't know what a Spirit(Holy Ghost) brain would look like. Nor for that matter what a perfected resurrected brain would look like. Doesn't mean they don't each have one. I just don't know very much about it.

I would say that while they are each separate Gods in their own right. They act as one. Kinda like my wife and I. Each of us is a distinct individual but when we act as a family we are one. But it is much closer, and absolute unanimity in the Godhead.

[Obiwan]

Are you telling me the creator of the earth is not a God? Just a measly agent, like one of us? Is not Christ EVERYTHING in the world of Christianity?

What is the big deal? Why the trouble with 2 Gods? Does it sound scary or something?

Of course he is "God" because he was acting as an agent of the Father as one of the "Godhead".

The Son and the Holy Ghost is not as on of us, we are not of the Godhead, they are.

Yes, Christ is everything in the sense that he is our Savior, our Exemplar, our Mediator between us and the Father, etc. But in all that it's is still Him doing His Fathers will. None of it is of "Him" and Him Alone.

Nothing "scary" about it.... It's simply being doctrinally accurate.

[Obiwan]

While not a common usage, calling Christ "God the Son" occurs in LDS writings, here is a link to it being used by one of the Apostles: http://lds.org/ensig...anding?lang=eng (he identifies the Holy Ghost as God as well)

Makes no sense to call Christ "God the Son" if he is not God, besides Elder Ballard makes it clear that Christ is God.

You are reading more into my words than what I was addressing.

Christ is God as one of the Godhead, and God as we are all gods.

For our purposes there is One God and that is the Father, and there is One God as the Godhead.

Christ being God the Son does not make him God as a separate God to worship. The Father is God. Of course, he's God in a lesser sense, but he's not the Most High God, which for our purposes is the only God.

I was contending against cion's claim that we worship "two" God's, rather than one. That is simply not doctrinally correct.

[Obiwan]

So we disregard the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young about the gods because you disagree with it?

It isn't doctrine because it is unsure or could be false. It is taught in the Church and the reason why it is not Church doctrine is because there is too much unknown about the nature of the gods to set anything in stone. Without further revelation (which will come when God decides to reveal it) we cannot have a doctrine only a teaching.

This is the same argument that another thread uses again Heavenly Mother, she is taught about but without further revelation to define her nature and purpose there is not doctrine.

I never said anything about disagreeing with their views on "the gods".

I was simply addressing the fact that the idea of an infinate regression of Gods is not LDS Doctrine. It is simply one of two ideas of thought on the subject within the Church, for which there is no sure doctrine on.

As to our Mother in Heaven, a completely different subject that I entirely agree is doctrine. Because it's based on scriptural inference and revelation. While whether there is a Father above the Father is completely unknown, and in fact scripture seems contrary to it. Almost no LDS scholar believes in a regression of God's scripturally and otherwise. That idea is simply popular folklore of some in the Church, not all, and certainly not doctrine.

[Calm]

Christ is ...God as we are all gods.

CFR that this is LDS doctrine.

[Calm]

Title says it all imo: http://lds.org/ensig...ur-god?lang=eng

Because His Father was God, Jesus Christ had power which no other human had before or since. He was God in the flesh

[Calm]

Also, Mormon 3:21

And also that ye may ^abelieve the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall ^bhave among you; and also that the ^cJews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other ^dwitness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the ^every Christ and the very God.

Not just the agent of God, not just a 'god' like we are 'gods'.

[cion]

Let's assume we go with the answer that there is only 1 God. How is LDS doctrine on the nature of God any different than the Trinity? I thought we used to pride ourselves in being different from Trinitarians. We believe in Heavenly Father and Jesus each having their own body of flesh and bone, right? That means they are each their own exalted person. They are individuals. They are not spirit matter but flesh and bone. They are two Gods. Heavenly Father is God and Jesus is God. That makes 2 Gods. How am I wrong?

[SilverKnight]

Let's assume we go with the answer that there is only 1 God. How is LDS doctrine on the nature of God any different than the Trinity? I thought we used to pride ourselves in being different from Trinitarians. We believe in Heavenly Father and Jesus each having their own body of flesh and bone, right? That means they are each their own exalted person. They are individuals. They are not spirit matter but flesh and bone. They are two Gods. Heavenly Father is God and Jesus is God. That makes 2 Gods. How am I wrong?

You are right.

Upon simple analysis and a straightforward consideration of terms, mormonism is a Bi-Theistic religion.

Trinity = 3 gods in 1, all aspects of the same deity.

Mormonism = 2 gods, wholly distinct yet unified in purpose.

[Obiwan]

Calmoriah.... You are clearly missing the "subtile" difference of point I'm trying to make. I don't disagree with anything you've quoted.

Let me make it even more clear for you. Do you think we worship "One" God or "Two"?

The scriptures are clear, that there is only One God as the Father, and One God as the Godhead.

I've never said anything that Christ isn't God in his own right, especially as being the only Begotten and of the Godhead. To be clear however, he didn't become God in his own right until after his incarnation, but before he was only God through the Father as part of the Godhead. But even then, there is still only One God we worship. He himself has said so all through the scriptures.

I'm not contending against the fact that Christ is God, I'm contending for the fact that he's "The God", contrary to cion or others who try and say there are 2 Gods, 3 God's, whatever. There is only one "The God", and that is the Father, and then there is "God" i.e. the Godhead as a body.

[Obiwan]

You are right.

Upon simple analysis and a straightforward consideration of terms, mormonism is a Bi-Theistic religion.

Trinity = 3 gods in 1, all aspects of the same deity.

Mormonism = 2 gods, wholly distinct yet unified in purpose.

Technically that's not right either.

The Holy Ghost is also God as part of the Godhead.

Thus there would be "3".

However, for our purposes there is only "one", and that is the Father.

I think it was thesometimessaint and a couple of others in previous posts who have made things perfectly clear in this issue doctrinally speaking. There are technically three Gods, but only One to us.

[Calm]

To be clear however, he didn't become God in his own right until after his incarnation, but before he was only God through the Father as part of the Godhead.

CFR that this is LDS doctrine.

[Obiwan]

CFR that this is LDS doctrine.

I thought you knew this stuff Cal?

Christ didn't have a body prior to his incarnation, thus by definition he wasn't "God" in his own right. Everything he did was in proxy of the Father previously. For example in the Old Testament it was Christ speaking nearly all the time, but he was speaking as if he was the Father. The creation itself occured through the Father, not by Christ's power alone.

I'm talking subtile stuff here Cal, do you not understand this? And you didn't answer my question. Do you believe there is one or two Gods that we worship? Cause if you say 2, then you aren't following the scriptures and the words of the prophets. If you believe that officially there is only One God we worship, then you don't need to be arguing with me. That is my point. My not expanding well enough certain statements for you doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with Christ being also considered God.

[Calm]

I thought you knew this stuff Cal?

Christ didn't have a body prior to his incarnation, thus by definition he wasn't "God" in his own right. .....

I'm talking subtile stuff here Cal, do you not understand this?

I understand it perfectly. It's not all subtle. I just don't think it's actual doctrine and am CFRing for you to demonstrate that it is. I would agree that we won't be able to be Gods until after we've been resurrected and therefore have our bodies, but where is the doctrine that Christ had the same limitation as us (as opposed to your assumption all the same rules apply to him).

[Questing Beast]

Questing Beast, on 09 February 2011 - 02:20 PM, said: His last theology (current LDS theology) raises far more questions about WHAT "God" is than it answers....

Disagree.

Joseph Smiths later theology, including the KFD, is a massive improvement of the labyrinthine ball of confusion called the Trinity.

The LDS doctrine of Deification fills in a huge theological knowledge gap.

How is reducing "God", the infinite Cause of all Existence, to the stature of a glorified, physical MAN, a "massive improvement"? And what "huge theological knowledge gap" are you talking about?

The Trinity is only confusing when people try and argue it as a literal fact instead of a metaphysical concept. There is no way that Jesus Christ can be God the Father; yet both are the same "God"; or more correctly, are FROM the same God.

Joseph Smith's Godhead is not a mess, true; it is very clear, and finite, i.e. puny: which by itself violates numerous scriptures declaring God to be inscrutable, incomprehensible, infinite, all knowing, all powerful, all present, and absolutely not limited to man's understanding.

The Trinity implies that God can manifest as more than one being. Well, Jesus said that his followers will become one as he and his Father are one, by becoming one with Jesus. That is Gospel, and Mormons believe it. What they do, however, is reduce this to a concept of "unity":like the Godhead, "three distinct personages united in purpose". But the Trinity doctrine hints at something huge, in fact infinite, going on. When Jesus says, "That they may be one as we are one", he is actually saying that his followers will "see" the Father and himself as God; and, being one with Jesus Christ, his followers will also be seen as God. That is a fact regardless if someone sees it or not. Jesus was praying that his followers WOULD see this truth: that they, like Jesus Christ, are one with the "Father". The Father manifestation is "God"; the Son manifestation is "God" as the Son, condescending (as the BofM has it) to appear as a flesh and blood mortal to draw "all men" to the Father ("God") through following the Son. And each mortal, each soul, like the Son as a mortal, is also a manifestation of "God". So the Trinity is an illustration of that truth: that God manifests in more than one way, in fact in infinite ways. not just limited to Three. But some people insist on clarity and finite understanding over an infinite metaphysical concept: and by such insistence they argue for God being ONLY Three manifestations, or worse, three separate Beings while only ONE God.

Your assertion is just based on the fact that the Trinity is debated by people who don't agree on what it implies. To those who understand the concept being shown by the Trinity doctrine there is no argument necessary: any disagreement is allowed to be part of something so vast that no one will ever comprehend it. It follows that no two people will ever understand the fullness of "God", ergo the Trinity (even as simplistic as it is) will result in endless concepts that might even appear to be mutually exclusive or contradictory, yet probably are not: since we are addressing Infinity itself, i.e. "God".

That the Trinity doctrine is argued isn't the surprise or even the problem - since religious doctrine is ALL argued without resolution: what is perhaps surprising is that it has endured in spite of disagreements for c. 2000 years....

[cion]

Obiwan,

I understand. Heavenly Father is the perfect, infinite, all powerful, all knowing God. Jesus is the less powerful God (or god).

[saemo]

saemo, take a deep breath.

Nobody here is saying Catholics believe or teach LDS exaltation

People are saying Catholics teach Theosis and the concept "man might become God"

This teaching is explicit in your Catechism (again not = LDS exaltation)

todd520, I am aware what is in the CCC, thanks. I suggest you read more of it in order to understand Catholic teaching.

But as I already said, Catholic teaching has always been we partake of the divine nature. We aren't that nature now and don't become that nature, ever.

[todd520]

todd520, I am aware what is in the CCC, thanks. I suggest you read more of it in order to understand Catholic teaching.

But as I already said, Catholic teaching has always been we partake of the divine nature. We aren't that nature now and don't become that nature, ever.

Correct, as I understand it, "Man might become God" via reflected light from a Catholic perspective. I am an ex-catholic myself

Quoting CCC460 is really just an effective parry against some Catholics

who criticize LDS without knowing much about either faiths,

except a few anti-mormon sound bites they've read.

It's not the teaching of CCC460 that we disagree on,

It's whether we are the same species as God,,

or whether we are a pet species

[saemo]

or whether we are a pet species

Which leads me to believe you are an ex-Catholic that never knew their faith, at all. And/or, are just prone to mocking God.