Anakin7 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 When in conversation with lay members of other Faith's I use the description and say "True Godhead", if with a Ecclesiastiacal individual I use the description and say we believe in a Anchient,Monarch,Eastern, Economic, Social, Godhead ,Trinity. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
todd520 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Which leads me to believe you are an ex-Catholic that never knew their faith, at all. And/or, are just prone to mocking God.saemo,I was not mocking God and I certainly tried to know my faith- attended weekly mass- alter boy- attended Catholic School- active in CYO etc, Do you disagree that our core difference in this area is whether we are a different species than God or not?Either approach does not affect salvation, but I feel the LDS view facilitates trying to live a Christ-like existence.
DH Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Gods who exist: God the Father, Jesus Christ (God the Son), the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Mother, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There may be others, but we don't know who.Normally we worship only God the Father, but when Jesus is among us, it seems ok to worship him (according to 3 Nephi).I'd say our beliefs are henotheistic, our practice (normally) monolatrous.
Magyar Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Please tell me mmm doesn't stand for Mountain Meadows Massacre. That would increase the twitch factor for me.
blueadept Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 saemo,I was not mocking God and I certainly tried to know my faith- attended weekly mass- alter boy- attended Catholic School- active in CYO etc, I've had discussions with my daughters who didn't go through this process as her peers but still is on fire with her faith now. It's what you do with it all once you make the decision to be a soldier of Christ for yourself. Your story is not uncommon IMHO. Do you disagree that our core difference in this area is whether we are a different species than God or not?I see no issues in being 'adopted' by God with the goal "To Know Him, To Love Him and To Serve Him, in this life, with the hope to be with Him in the next life." We were created in His image after all and called to holiness.I believe LDS occasionally get carried away with a desire to humanize God at times. Catholics tend to 'not have the desire' to do that IMO.Either approach does not affect salvation, but I feel the LDS view facilitates trying to live a Christ-like existence.We agree to disagree on this.
cion Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 President Gordon B. Hinckley worshiped Jesus.I worship Him as I worship His FatherGordon B. Hinckley, "In These Three I Believe", Ensign, July 2006, 2
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 cion:There are 3 Gods that we have anything to do with in LDS Theology.
todd520 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 I believe LDS occasionally get carried away with a desire to humanize God at times. Catholics tend to 'not have the desire' to do that IMO.blueadept, i think your observation is very accurate, we are at opposite ends on the spectrum in humanizing GodI have also thought that believing in an inhuman God may be why Catholics seek intermeiaries that are more human, seeking intercession through the much more human Mary and the Saints.We humans need to relate and will do it through one means or another.
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 todd520:Interesting. Since becoming a member I've felt that God was my father. Therefore I could approach him anytime I wanted to. The only intercessory I need was Jesus the Christ.
blueadept Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 I have also thought that believing in an inhuman God may be why Catholics seek intercession through the much more human Mary and the Saints.We humans need to relate and will do it through one means or another.While I appreciate your observation as a LDS, it's definitely not a correct understanding of 'intercession' since ALL prayers go to God alone for Catholics. Since we believe that Mary and the Saints are already in heaven, the addition of their prayers to ours to God carries more weight than our prayers alone to Him. The fact that they are already where we hope to be I don't see an issue with the concept. The fact that every Mary and Saint Catholic prayer has a "Pray for Us" in it brings home the point.To each their own.
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 blueadept:That I've never understood. If God is no respecter of persons. Why would Mary have "more weight" than any other child of God?
blueadept Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 blueadept:That I've never understood. If God is no respecter of persons. Why would Mary have "more weight" than any other child of God?While we all are children of God, we believe those already in heaven (Mary and the Saints) have already been shown some favoritism and since that's where I hope to eventually get to.....why not ask for them to 'Pray for Us' to God?
Questing Beast Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 ...Jesus is God. Heavenly Father is God. They are both Gods and they are both unique and individual beings per LDS doctrine. Within LDS doctrine, there are 2 Gods (and maybe 3 if you count the HG).Round and around we go. In 1835 Joseph Smith declared that the "Godhead" is TWO beings, the HG being their combined influence. The Father (back then) had no physical body; but the Son did so (Lectures on Faith number Five)....
Zakuska Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Aside from God the Father (Heavenly Father), what deities are there to talk about?As you can see... Jeremiah mentions one...Jeremiah 44:18But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.Don't worship her though. That gets you in trouble.
mapman Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 How is reducing "God", the infinite Cause of all Existence, to the stature of a glorified, physical MAN, a "massive improvement"? And what "huge theological knowledge gap" are you talking about?It is a massive improvement because it removes what is called the "ontological divide" and the theological problems that arise with this. God is able to relate to us and be a loving parent instead of a formless being that does not have emotions. It also makes it so that being a human and having a body is not something to be ashamed of but proud of. For me an embodied God is much more satisfying and makes more sense.The Trinity is only confusing when people try and argue it as a literal fact instead of a metaphysical concept. There is no way that Jesus Christ can be God the Father; yet both are the same "God"; or more correctly, are FROM the same God.The Nicene trinity is confusing because it is incomprehensible. If God exists then He should follow the rules of logic that apply to all things that exist. In contrast, the Mormon view of God is perfectly comprehensible and thus allows us to have more confidence in Him and a closer relationship.Joseph Smith's Godhead is not a mess, true; it is very clear, and finite, i.e. puny: which by itself violates numerous scriptures declaring God to be inscrutable, incomprehensible, infinite, all knowing, all powerful, all present, and absolutely not limited to man's understanding.Do you think that the Mormon understanding of God is not infinite, all knowing, all powerful, and all present? It sounds to me that you jumped ship before you entirely understood Mormon teachings. CFR for the scriptures that say that God is inscrutable and incomprehensible.The Trinity implies that God can manifest as more than one being. Well, Jesus said that his followers will become one as he and his Father are one, by becoming one with Jesus. That is Gospel, and Mormons believe it. What they do, however, is reduce this to a concept of "unity":like the Godhead, "three distinct personages united in purpose". But the Trinity doctrine hints at something huge, in fact infinite, going on. When Jesus says, "That they may be one as we are one", he is actually saying that his followers will "see" the Father and himself as God; and, being one with Jesus Christ, his followers will also be seen as God. That is a fact regardless if someone sees it or not. Jesus was praying that his followers WOULD see this truth: that they, like Jesus Christ, are one with the "Father". The Father manifestation is "God"; the Son manifestation is "God" as the Son, condescending (as the BofM has it) to appear as a flesh and blood mortal to draw "all men" to the Father ("God") through following the Son. And each mortal, each soul, like the Son as a mortal, is also a manifestation of "God". So the Trinity is an illustration of that truth: that God manifests in more than one way, in fact in infinite ways. not just limited to Three. But some people insist on clarity and finite understanding over an infinite metaphysical concept: and by such insistence they argue for God being ONLY Three manifestations, or worse, three separate Beings while only ONE God.Your assertion is just based on the fact that the Trinity is debated by people who don't agree on what it implies. To those who understand the concept being shown by the Trinity doctrine there is no argument necessary: any disagreement is allowed to be part of something so vast that no one will ever comprehend it. It follows that no two people will ever understand the fullness of "God", ergo the Trinity (even as simplistic as it is) will result in endless concepts that might even appear to be mutually exclusive or contradictory, yet probably are not: since we are addressing Infinity itself, i.e. "God".That the Trinity doctrine is argued isn't the surprise or even the problem - since religious doctrine is ALL argued without resolution: what is perhaps surprising is that it has endured in spite of disagreements for c. 2000 years....I don't understand what you mean by thinking that the Nicene Trinity is "vast" and the Mormon understanding is "puny". It actually seems the other way around to me.
cion Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Don't worship her though. That gets you in trouble.What kind of trouble? Illness, job loss? lack of empathy of victims? lying? irresponsibility of dependents? What kind of trouble, exactly, are you talking about? Or are you suggesting only that The main God (HF) will get mad? If so, why would he get mad about this?
cion Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 The Nicene trinity is confusing because it is incomprehensible. If God exists then He should follow the rules of logic that apply to all things that exist. In contrast, the Mormon view of God is perfectly comprehensible and thus allows us to have more confidence in Him and a closer relationship.Oh really? You are saying the idea of 1 God but 2 Gods with independent bodies, minds, and spirits is less confusing? Granted, we need to give the LDS credit - they have not been around as long as the Catholics to iron this stuff out. The day will come... eventually... then we might be able to refer to the SLC Creed and compare it quite nicely to the good work done by the ecumenical council.
Zakuska Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 What kind of trouble? Illness, job loss? lack of empathy of victims? lying? irresponsibility of dependents? What kind of trouble, exactly, are you talking about? Or are you suggesting only that The main God (HF) will get mad? If so, why would he get mad about this?Ask Jeremiah... he answers ALL of those questions.
SilverKnight Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 How is reducing "God", the infinite Cause of all Existence, to the stature of a glorified, physical MAN, a "massive improvement"? I would argue that 'elevating' a convoluted, unknowable, inscrutable, inhuman force to a living, breathing, human, a literal Father, is indeed a 'massive improvement'.And what "huge theological knowledge gap" are you talking about?The Nature of God - perhaps the most debated, contended, perplexing, confusing, and mind-bending issue in human history.The Trinity is only confusing when people try and argue it as a literal fact instead of a metaphysical concept. There is no way that Jesus Christ can be God the Father; yet both are the same "God"; or more correctly, are FROM the same God.The Trinity is confusing even when 'demoted' to an abstract metaphysical concept.And why can't be God be an actual literal being, as we are?Joseph Smith's Godhead is not a mess, true; it is very clear, and finite, i.e. puny: I find nothing finite or 'puny' about Eternal Progression. IMO, it represents a far more glorious eternal human destiny than Christian salvation.which by itself violates numerous scriptures declaring God to be inscrutable, incomprehensible, infinite, all knowing, all powerful, all present, and absolutely not limited to man's understanding.Completely agree - Thank goodness that the LDS concept seeks to humanize God into a knowable, familial, tangible 'All-Father' God.The Trinity implies that God can manifest as more than one being. Well, Jesus said that his followers will become one as he and his Father are one, by becoming one with Jesus. That is Gospel, and Mormons believe it. What they do, however, is reduce this to a concept of "unity":like the Godhead, "three distinct personages united in purpose". But the Trinity doctrine hints at something huge, in fact infinite, going on.I don't see how the theological construct of the Trinity is "bigger" or "better" to the LDS Godhead. They are different, to be sure, but the inherent superiority of one over the other is a matter of which religious building you attend. Your assertion is just based on the fact that the Trinity is debated by people who don't agree on what it implies. To those who understand the concept being shown by the Trinity doctrine there is no argument necessary: any disagreement is allowed to be part of something so vast that no one will ever comprehend it. It follows that no two people will ever understand the fullness of "God", ergo the Trinity (even as simplistic as it is) will result in endless concepts that might even appear to be mutually exclusive or contradictory, yet probably are not: since we are addressing Infinity itself, i.e. "God".Again, an infinite, unknowable, metaphysical God may resonates with many people.I am not one. My humanist streak is drawn to a God who is like me.The God 'invented' by Joseph Smith, if nothing else, is a remarkable theological innovation, that resonates with our fundamental human nature.The idea that God is a human being is powerfully illuminating to lots of people.That the Trinity doctrine is argued isn't the surprise or even the problem - since religious doctrine is ALL argued without resolution: what is perhaps surprising is that it has endured in spite of disagreements for c. 2000 years....Not all. The nature of God is pretty well established and defined (ie. not debated) in mormonism. That Christianity has endured and entrenched is not surprising at all, given the way it historically was spread, adhered and enforced.
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 cion:You can pray to whom ever you want in the privacy of your own home. No one is going "Checkup" on you. But if you were to do so in a Church meeting and/or teach others to do so. The Bishop will ask to see you in his office to have a nice talk. Persist in doing so, and you will become subject to Church discipline.
cion Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Ask Jeremiah... he answers ALL of those questions. I can't ask him because he is not here. I could read some words that some guys wrote and said it was Jeremiah, but I can't trust the author. It was a long time ago.
cion Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 cion:You can pray to whom ever you want in the privacy of your own home. No one is going "Checkup" on you. But if you were to do so in a Church meeting and/or teach others to do so. The Bishop will ask to see you in his office to have a nice talk. Persist in doing so, and you will become subject to Church discipline.I totally agree. It would be rude to try to get others to believe the way I do. Beliefs are personal.
Questing Beast Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 It is a massive improvement because it removes what is called the "ontological divide" and the theological problems that arise with this.The so-called ontological divide is a philosophical problem not a metaphysical one. It is making a problem where none exists, imho. If we assert something, and this creates a problem, it is our fallacious assertion that is the problem.God is able to relate to us and be a loving parent instead of a formless being that does not have emotions. It also makes it so that being a human and having a body is not something to be ashamed of but proud of. For me an embodied God is much more satisfying and makes more sense.All throughout Christian history there have been countless millions who hold a corporeal Being in their mind as the manifestation that "God" is reaching to them through. Mormonism has brought forth nothing new.The Nicene trinity is confusing because it is incomprehensible."Incomprehensible" how exactly? To me it makes almost perfect sense. I can rectify Mormon theology with the Trinity as given by the Nicene Creed (and visa versa) without the least difficulty. If God exists then He should follow the rules of logic that apply to all things that exist. In contrast, the Mormon view of God is perfectly comprehensible and thus allows us to have more confidence in Him and a closer relationship.Elsewhere, I have mentioned my childhood difficulty with the finite Mormon God the Father; he could not possibly be the Cause of Existence in the first place. Being finite, the Mormon God the Father is just one of "us", not the creator of Existence.Do you think that the Mormon understanding of God is not infinite, all knowing, all powerful, and all present? It sounds to me that you jumped ship before you entirely understood Mormon teachings. CFR for the scriptures that say that God is inscrutable and incomprehensible.Precisely my point: contradiction, inconsistency, abound here. You cannot assert "God was once a mortal and is now a glorified man"; or even, "God has a body as tangible as man's", and with that physical brain inside that immortal brain pan, control the entire cosmos of the multiverse, and be responsible for its existence as well. The "God" described in TPoGP is merely one of us, more advanced but not the Cause of Existence; we are told that intelligence and matter have always existed and cannot be created. God the Father is one with that uncreated Existence. As I said, Mormon theology and cosmology doesn't answer anything; it simply makes the terrible questions even bigger. By trying to be specific about the Infinite, Mormon theology/cosmology creates a self-limiting exegesis.I don't understand what you mean by thinking that the Nicene Trinity is "vast" and the Mormon understanding is "puny". It actually seems the other way around to me.I used to believe that too. But look at it: "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who in unity with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets."This is a clear, sincere effort to articulate something Infinite going on. Yet it does not make the mistake of being too specific about what cannot be known: and that is infinity. God's manifestations, as determined in the scriptures, is ALL that is addressed in the doctrine of the Church. The rest is for mystics to explore by themselves. But Mormonism contrasts: it spells out a specific, finite Godhead doctrine and says, "Go no further than this." Thus it opens questions wider and answers nothing....
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Questing Beast:That doesn't make any sense. Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. That doesn't seem to stop him from being God.
saemo Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 saemo,I was not mocking God and I certainly tried to know my faith- attended weekly mass- alter boy- attended Catholic School- active in CYO etc, Do you disagree that our core difference in this area is whether we are a different species than God or not?Either approach does not affect salvation, but I feel the LDS view facilitates trying to live a Christ-like existence.?Please read more of the CCC, especially regarding who God created you to be.Also, in regards to an "inhuman God"...apparently you never learned or have forgotten Who Jesus Christ is.Jesus IS GOD.
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