How many LDS deities?

[blueadept]

For the curious, here is the relevant Catholic teaching, from the Catechism, explaining why Christ became flesh

As noted by others, the Catholic belief in Theosis is not the same as Exaltation,

However, they both share the fundamental teaching that "we might become God"

edit to add

When any of you read the King Follett Discourse, you should remember that it contains errors. It was compiled from audience notes and was not a published speech in the modern sense. To me this implies I can trust the major themes and teachings to be accurate, but I don't trust every turn of phrase. Something could have been misspoken or recorded incorrectly by the people taking notes (no tape recorders). J Smith died shortly after this speech was given

I think we can agree that this is an important teaching of the LDS church and I'm not aware of a single LDS member who isn't aware of the teaching.

Catholics go through a 3-year cycle in covering scriptures and teachings of the church as well. I can't say I've ever heard it in my lifetime. Must be important stuff.

[Pahoran]

Now that I think about it a little more, this part of your response raises a question for me. According to LDS teaching, Jesus had a brother and that was Lucifer.

Hmmmm...

That sounds a whole lot like Hinduism. Or, at least, a lot like what a nice Hindu guy explained to me on a different forum.

And another Hmmmm...

Is the Book of Moses the Torah, or is it something different?

And still another Hmmmm. Evidently mmmcounts is bold enough to tell us what "LDS teaching" is, but hasn't heard of the Book of Moses. I wonder what his source of information is?

Am I the only one whose radar is starting to twitch?

Such is the nature of comparisons. Which is something you just made, btw. Me associating a religious statement with Hinduism is like you comparing my association with a comparison of communism to capitalism, although I would have preferred that you compare my association with something that made a little more sense. It think that would have better suited my original association. For example, you might have said "That is like saying ideals that include public ownership and cooperative management of production hold much in common with a description of socialism." I would have like that a little better.

Perhaps you would have liked that a little better; but it is rather absurd to tell LDS Christians that you understand what our religion resembles better than we do. The point is that LDS Christianity has only the most trivial and superficial resemblances to Hinduism, but it has very large and significant areas of overlap with other forms of Christianity; which forms probably resemble Hinduism no less than LDS Christianity does.

But I admit that I am intrigued by something: your screenname. What is mmm and why does it count?

Regards,

Pahoran

[thesometimesaint]

blueadept:

I've been LDS for 40 years. I can count on one hand the SS classes that have even approached the idea of a Mother in Heaven beyond that which is already in the Proclamation on the Family.

[Lightbearer]

Aside from God the Father (Heavenly Father), what deities are there to talk about?

As far as we are concerned we go by the admonition of Paul:

(1 Corinthians 8:5-6) "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Now as for the number of true gods, they are many, as is evidenced by the fact that Gods, angels, and men are all of the same species, a race of gods (in embryo as far as we are concerned) the following may give some light on this important subject:

(D&C 93:8-32) "Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation

[Calm]

Such is the nature of comparisons. Which is something you just made, btw. Me associating a religious statement with Hinduism is like you comparing my association with a comparison of communism to capitalism, although I would have preferred that you compare my association with something that made a little more sense. It think that would have better suited my original association. For example, you might have said "That is like saying ideals that include public ownership and cooperative management of production hold much in common with a description of socialism." I would have like that a little better.

I am not saying comparisons are automatically bad, but they can be trivial, meaningless or even misleading if they are based on superficial and contextless concepts. There are many ways one can say that the LDS faith is like Hinduism, they are both religions, they are both religious beliefs systems that are held by the majority in certain areas of the world, they are religious belief systems that include diet restrictions, they are religious belief systems about Deity, they are religious belief systems about Man's relationship with Diety.

But after saying all of that, is there anything of significance we have learned about either the LDS faith system or the Hindu? From what I know of both, I would say no.

And as someone who knows both the context of the belief in deity and man's relationship to deity in both the LDS faith system and to a certain extent Hinduism having studied it in years past in college as well as other ways, I have concluded that the claim that an interpolation of the LDS doctrine that 'we become one with God' might imply 'there is one deity that we all (meaning those exalted) become members of' sounds like (meaning "means the same or almost the same thing") the Hindu concept of deity is a very superficial one that disregards not only the significant differences in understanding of who God (and therefore "Diety") is, but also disregards most of what is understood about man as well as his relationship with God.

And if one has to ignore the definition of Deity and Man in a discussion about Diety and Man in order to find similarities between belief systems, one is in serious trouble.

Hope this makes my point clearer.

[Calm]

And to further demonstrate my point let me post some basic info about Hindu's concept of deity: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/onegod.asp

Notice the term being used is "manifestations", not "members"...notice the "He exists in all and all exist in Him" and "there is no other but Him and there is nothing outside of Him".

Does that sound anything like the LDS Concept of Deity?

Of course, there is also a huge variety of Hinduism, this concept is the one most often presented in my experience as the ultimate ground that other variations are based off of or tied together, understandably so since the Advaita Vedanta tradition is the most influential school, IIRC (been awhile since I've read this stuff and I definitely don't want to go dig out my books on the subject). If you want to claim similarities of beliefs between LDS and other forms of Hinduism, you need to identify what form and demonstrate there is a nontrivial relationship between understandings, something I think you will find difficult to do.

[Pahoran]

And to further demonstrate my point let me post some basic info about Hindu's concept of deity: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/onegod.asp

Notice the term being used is "manifestations", not "members"...notice the "He exists in all and all exist in Him" and "there is no other but Him and there is nothing outside of Him".

Does that sound anything like the LDS Concept of Deity?

No. But now that you mention it, one could argue that it sounds something like some expressions of mainstream Christian theology.

Not that I'm interested in playing that game, but it's worth noting that it is a game that pretty much anyone can play.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

No. But now that you mention it, one could argue that it sounds something like some expressions of mainstream Christian theology.

Not that I'm interested in playing that game, but it's worth noting that it is a game that pretty much anyone can play.

Regards,

Pahoran

I was thinking that one did not have to go any further than the Christian concept of being "one with God" as I typed up my response, lol.

[saemo]

I think we can agree that this is an important teaching of the LDS church and I'm not aware of a single LDS member who isn't aware of the teaching.

Catholics go through a 3-year cycle in covering scriptures and teachings of the church as well. I can't say I've ever heard it in my lifetime. Must be important stuff.

I've heard scriptures and homilies referencing partaking of the divine nature. But to the topic of this thread, and comparing to Catholicism. There is One God. Period. Catholics don't believe it is even possible for more than one God to exist. The whole idea cancels out the very nature of God, and so any comments coming from LDS that the catechism or the ECF's taught Mormon exaltation, just cannot be backed up. It is a fantasy, made possible by taking teachings out of context. The ECF's were Catholic, not Mormon, and none of them ever believed or taught that we take on the nature of God, creating Quadrinities, Pentinities(?), to infinity. It is ludicrous to apply the LDS idea of exaltation to Christian teaching.

[todd520]

I've heard scriptures and homilies referencing partaking of the divine nature. But to the topic of this thread, and comparing to Catholicism. There is One God. Period. Catholics don't believe it is even possible for more than one God to exist. The whole idea cancels out the very nature of God, and so any comments coming from LDS that the catechism or the ECF's taught Mormon exaltation, just cannot be backed up. It is a fantasy, made possible by taking teachings out of context. The ECF's were Catholic, not Mormon, and none of them ever believed or taught that we take on the nature of God, creating Quadrinities, Pentinities(?), to infinity. It is ludicrous to apply the LDS idea of exaltation to Christian teaching.

saemo, take a deep breath.

Nobody here is saying Catholics believe or teach LDS exaltation

People are saying Catholics teach Theosis and the concept "man might become God"

This teaching is explicit in your Catechism (again not = LDS exaltation)

[blueadept]

saemo, take a deep breath.

Nobody here is saying Catholics believe or teach LDS exaltation

People are saying Catholics teach Theosis and the concept "man might become God"

This teaching is explicit in your Catechism (again not = LDS exaltation)

While it's in the Catechism, it's not taught and I defer to some of the more knowledgeable Catholics as to the proper understanding of what's in the Catechism. I never heard of Theosis prior to this board; therefore, I don't want to even infer any particular meaning. The meaning of CCC260 may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to me as a Catholic.

[Nathair/|\]

Here is, for what little it's worth, my rather idiosyncratic take on the OP. I think it can be answered from several different perspectives.

First, what I think we know from the scriptures:

1. Elohim/ Heavenly Father is the Father of our Spirits and the only God with whom we have to do, as said above. So, one.

2. Jesus Christ/YHWH and the Holy Ghost are also fully Gods. So, three.

3. All three, though seperate entities/personalities, at least two of whom cannot take up the same physical space at the same time in the same dimension, are effectively one in intent, will and action. So, again, one. (See the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon.)

Next, what I think is the best extrapolation from the scriptures, with support (I think) from the Bretheren.

4. There are almost certainly one or more Heavenly Mothers. (I picture only one, but I don't really know.) I take the Proclamation on the Family to be scripture and I think the presence of Oh My Father in the current hymnbook makes it at least Quasi-official. (That's another thread.) So, at least four.

5. Heavenly Mother must be one with Heavenly Father. So, we are back to one.

6. I think the best extrapolation of our doctrine of exaltation requires an infinite regress of Godly ancestors and all their descendants who have received exaltation, or at least have not lost it. We do not worship any of these as gods, though. I don't even know if we will ever meet any who are not our siblings. So Infinity.

7. As Sister Calmoriah so wisely pointed out; all these infinite exalted beings are supposed to be one with their Heavenly Fathers. By extension, they must be one with each other. So, for the last time in this post, one.

Finally, I am getting in to some of my private beliefs, supported by my experiences, those of some of my aquaintences, some I have read about and the traditions of many nations. I also find them implied in some of the oldest parts of the Bible. (eg. Exodus 15:11)

8. There seems to be a class of lower entities, such as the Olympians and Tuatha de Dannan who are sometimes called gods, though I prefer to reserve that term to those in the previous seven points. Included in this seems to be the spirit of the Earth herself (Moses 7:48) and possibly her children. They have little to do with salvation. They encourage me to work on my talents and to make the world a better place for everyone I can affect. I honor them by doing so. I don't like applying the word Worship to them for the same reason I don't like calling them gods, but I have similar respect for them that I do for a college professor or an officer in the Navy.

If anyone is keeping track, half the senses listed above (the odd-numbered ones) resulted in one God. I hope I didn't create too much confusion.

Yours under the slightly heretical oaks,

Nathair /|\

[cion]

Sorry to barge in again. Without reading all the posts since I last entered this thread, would someone mind telling me where we ended up on the Deity count? I'm leaning toward 2 Gods in LDS but could go with 3. I'm on the fence with this. Whether it is 2 or 3 makes no difference to me (3 is bigger than 2 but 2 feels a little more intimate) but provides a sense of comfort to know what the official count is.

Thanks!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Sorry to barge in again. Without reading all the posts since I last entered this thread, would someone mind telling me where we ended up on the Deity count? I'm leaning toward 2 Gods in LDS but could go with 3. I'm on the fence with this. Whether it is 2 or 3 makes no difference to me (3 is bigger than 2 but 2 feels a little more intimate) but provides a sense of comfort to know what the official count is.

Thanks!

There is only one deity (since a deity is worshipped) only Heavenly Father is worshipped. There is other gods but they are not deities since we only worship one God not many gods.

[cion]

There is only one deity (since a deity is worshipped) only Heavenly Father is worshipped. There is other gods but they are not deities since we only worship one God not many gods.

Jesus is not worshiped?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There is only one deity (since a deity is worshipped) only Heavenly Father is worshipped. There is other gods but they are not deities since we only worship one God not many gods.

I don' think I can agree with this. Jesus is most assuradly, deity and he is a God. I think the thing that we as LDS are is social trinitarians. However, I would say that everything is done to glorify the Father.

Others in this thread claim we are monothesists. I think that is inaccuarate. The same time saying we are polythesists is also inaccuarate.

[cion]

Others in this thread claim we are monothesists. I think that is inaccuarate. The same time saying we are polythesists is also inaccuarate.

Look, it's a simple question. How many LDS deities (the kind we worship and consider our God)? 1, 2, 3, or more?

We know it is not 1 because we worship HF and JC. We know it is at least 2. The notion of the HG being a God is questionable. It is also questionable whether we count Heavenly Mother but I think she is pretty well forgotten/ignored at this point so we can't really count her.

I say it is most possibly 2 and could be 3.

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

Look. It is a simple answer. We worship only God the Father; We do so through Jesus the Christ, and do so by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[todd520]

While it's in the Catechism, it's not taught and I defer to some of the more knowledgeable Catholics as to the proper understanding of what's in the Catechism. I never heard of Theosis prior to this board; therefore, I don't want to even infer any particular meaning. The meaning of CCC260 may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to me as a Catholic.

blueaept,

I've spent some time on CatholicAnswers where I was repeatedly told by non-LDS "what I really believed"

I apologize if I've done that to you.

After being often ridiculed by Christians for the LDS belief that "man might become God" my goal here is to educate on the probable origins of said belief

- Most Christians have not read the Early Church Fathers and knew not of Theosis as a Christian teaching

- Most Catholics are not aware the Catechism has a related teaching in the present day (CCC 460)

My goal is to increase their awareness rather than interpret for said Christians.

ps. my understanding is the Catechsim is in effect the 'cliff notes' for understanding the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

It contains the fundamental Christian truths formulated in a way that facilitates their understanding.

[semlogo]

Aside from God the Father (Heavenly Father), what deities are there to talk about?

Billions - all of us are deities in embryo.

But as far as Deities worshiped? The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost.

[cion]

cion:

Look. It is a simple answer. We worship only God the Father; We do so through Jesus the Christ, and do so by the power of the Holy Ghost.

you aren't answering the question. How many?

[blueadept]

blueaept,

I've spent some time on CatholicAnswers where I was repeatedly told by non-LDS "what I really believed"

I apologize if I've done that to you.

I'm glad we have an understanding and you've hit the nail on the head of why I don't hang out at CatholicAnswers. Defemse of the Catholic faith it's not bad, but many posters love to dictate what others believe especially to LDS which normally turns ugly rather quickly. I applaud you if you have the thick-skin to deal with it. There were two Mormons who did and I found this site to gain better understanding of my wife's faith due to their patience. All good.

- Most Christians have not read the Early Church Fathers and knew not of Theosis as a Christian teaching

It depends upon which ECF you're refering to at how well I'm willing to accept the teaching. I haven't found too much I disagree with Justin Martyr so wouldn't have too much issues. Origen I tend to take with a grain of salt for personal reasons especially on a topic of this nature. Oh well.

- Most Catholics are not aware the Catechism has a related teaching in the present day (CCC 460)

My goal is to increase their awareness rather than interpret for said Christians.

IMO, this subject is of MAJOR interests for EV's and LDS since they worry about things like the Rapture or such of how it will be in the next life. Most Catholics don't even know what the rapture is and not a major worry. It rates up there with reading the Koran.

ps. my understanding is the Catechsim is in effect the 'cliff notes' for understanding the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

It contains the fundamental Christian truths formulated in a way that facilitates their understanding.

I tend to disagree with this statement. If you want to gain the proper understanding of most Catholic beliefs, it's more than sufficient to gain a good understanding and it's more than just 'cliff notes.'

On the subject of 'Theosis', the LARGE volume of the catechism gives this subject 2 sentences which obviously insufficient for LDS members to understand the proper meaning for Catholics. (Being Sarcastic now) This is such an important topic for Catholics that one has to go back to the ECF to find a talk about it. Yep...it's important...not.

My 2 cents

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

You have asked at least three questions.

How many deities are there? Unknown.

How many Gods are there? Gods many and Lords many. But to us there is but one God, and one Lord.

How many Gods do we worship? Only one. We worship God the Father; through Jesus the Christ; by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[LDSGuy]

Paul said that there are many lords and gods, but to us there is but one God. The term God doesn't seem exclusive to our Heavenly Father. Moses was made God to Aaron. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are members of the Godhead and so are gods themselves.

[rf1520]

It seems weird that this is such a confusing topic. We definitely worship Heavenly Father. Do we worship Jesus, or just revere Him? It sure feels like we worship Him on Sundays. I mean, JS is revered, but Jesus is worshiped, right?