mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 On another note, since mortal men at least become deity through being one with God, then there may only be one actual deity, just many members of it, our conception of deity as an individual state of being may be faulty.That sounds a whole lot like Hinduism. Or, at least, a lot like what a nice Hindu guy explained to me on a different forum.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 ...or Tri-Theistic since there is a good change the HG is God too.I don't think so.Though the HG is considered part of the Godhead, he/it is never worshiped directly the way JC and HF are.Mormons are on much more personal, intimate terms with Jesus and The Father.For practical purposes, LDS are Bi-Theistic.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:You youngsters. I was born in 1951 and converted in 1971.Youngsters....chortle! What should we call you, sir?
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 On another note, since mortal men at least become deity through being one with God, then there may only be one actual deity, just many members of it, our conception of deity as an individual state of being may be faulty.kind of like a Hindu version of the Trinity? We could call it the Googoly - meaning many, many beings, one God.It is quite clear in D&C 132:37 that at least some mortals have made it to God-hood. There is some threshold you have to cross to get there but likely these crusty old guys are still working hard at it.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 I don't think so.Though the HG is considered part of the Godhead, he/it is never worshiped directly the way JC and HF are.Mormons are on much more personal, intimate terms with Jesus and The Father.For practical purposes, LDS are Bi-Theistic.What are the intimate terms like with Jesus? How's it different from the Father terms?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 On another note, since mortal men at least become deity through being one with God, then there may only be one actual deity, just many members of it, our conception of deity as an individual state of being may be faulty.This is correct our HF is a god because of his HF, and so one tracing back logically to who knows where (another mystery that our theology introduces but never answers!).For the intent of our world though our Heavenly Father is the One True God, since he is our spiritual father. Just like our mortal father is our father even though he himself has a father. The fact that he has a heavenly father does not make him any less our heavenly father and our One True (and Supreme) God.
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I don't think so.Though the HG is considered part of the Godhead, he/it is never worshiped directly the way JC and HF are.Mormons are on much more personal, intimate terms with Jesus and The Father.For practical purposes, LDS are Bi-Theistic.So the criteria for Godhood is that humans are worshiping you? I guess that makes sense. I'll go with it. I officially change my answer:Answer: 2 Gods.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 What are the intimate terms like with Jesus? How's it different from the Father terms?Who worships Jesus Christ? We praise Jesus Christ and give him glory but we only worship HF!If we worship both HF and JC, we are not polytheists! We only worship one God, not two!
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Now that I think about it a little more, this part of your response raises a question for me. According to LDS teaching, Jesus had a brother and that was Lucifer. Did he have the capacity to atone for our sins, although he did not? And what's his status in deity-terms? Is it a situation where there's two brothers from the same parents but one of them's a deity and the other's not? How does that happen- is it congenital or does it happen over time? Was the status of deity gained or lost in either case?We are all brothers and sisters of Christ who are here on this earth since we are all spirit children of God the Father. Lucifer and others like him who reject God as their Father disown themselves from His family, thus cutting the bonds that could allow them to become fully one with God and thus continue to progress in righteousness, knowledge, etc.Scriptures would definitely indicate there was something special about Christ beyond his being the Firstborn, probably would explain why he was chosen to be the Firstborn in my opinion.Do we even know what deity is? What the quality of being that defines one as deity?Also I don't think we know how deity actually occurs except in our own cases where God has been clear about the process (well, clear up to a point)---we become deity by becoming one with him.This does not preclude other ways, however. It is possible in my view that there are those beings that have always been deity throughout their eternal existence or who have achieved that state solely through their own efforts. Mankind in general are not able to do so. My personal opinion is that Christ could have become on his own or was deity eternally, that he accepted the subordinate role of Firstborn out of pure love and a desire to serve others. That is how he was able to be sinless through his own agency, thus qualifying him to be our Redeemer through the Atonement.
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Who worships Jesus Christ? We praise Jesus Christ and give him glory but we only worship HF!If we worship both HF and JC, we are not polytheists! We only worship one God, not two!Look up the word "worship".Jesus is indeed worshiped within the LDS culture and religious practices just as HF is.2 Gods.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 What are the intimate terms like with Jesus? How's it different from the Father terms?Both are worshipped in equal measure I would guess.The First Vision is a good prototype for Mormons' relationship with deity:Two Gods, binary deities, united in purpose, equal in authority, parallel in mission, but with a literal Father & Son familial relationship.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 Who worships Jesus Christ?Oh, oh, I know this one!Wait, should I say it?
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Who worships Jesus Christ? We praise Jesus Christ and give him glory but we only worship HF!LDS absolutely worship Jesus Christ in veneration, song, scripture and sermon.The only thing we do not do is pray directly to Jesus - but rather to the Father on Jesus' behalf.Though that is merely a formality.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Who worships Jesus Christ? We praise Jesus Christ and give him glory but we only worship HF!If we worship both HF and JC, we are not polytheists! We only worship one God, not two!That would depend on how one defines "worship". Depending on the definition, I think we could say we worship only God the Father (if we define worship as recognizing who has ultimate authority and power over us) but using other more common defintions more common, there is nothing improper about saying we worship Christ as well.Worship....
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Oh, oh, I know this one!Wait, should I say it?Go ahead.We've all done this dance many times.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 equal in authorityWould like to see this demonstrated as LDS doctrine, it may be just a semantic thing, but possibly not and I really do disagree with you.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Would like to see this demonstrated as LDS doctrine, it may be just a semantic thing, but possibly not and I really do disagree with you.It is my understanding that although Christ defers to the Father out of respect and tradition, he has been given all the Father has - that is the totality of his power, dominion and priesthood authority.But I could be wrong.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 This is correct our HF is a god because of his HF, and so one tracing back logically to who knows where (another mystery that our theology introduces but never answers!).....The fact that he has a heavenly father does not make him any less our heavenly father and our One True (and Supreme) God.Unfortunately while it is a very common belief, there is no actual official doctrine that Heavenly Father has a father....like you say it is a mystery that is introduced only.There are devout LDS who believe that the line of Heavenly Fathers begins with our Heavenly Father.I'm open on the matter and will wait for further revelation on the matter.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 mmmcounts:Sir TheSomeTimeSaint is awkward and more than a little presupposing. The only Title of Nobility I ever desired is that of Dad. But TSTS will do in a pinch.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 We are all brothers and sisters of Christ who are here on this earth since we are all spirit children of God the Father. Lucifer and others like him who reject God as their Father disown themselves from His family, thus cutting the bonds that could allow them to become fully one with God and thus continue to progress in righteousness, knowledge, etc.Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about the whole spirit-children thing. Is/was there any sense in which Lucifer's status as Jesus' brother was more significant than yours is, or is it exactly the same thing?Scriptures would definitely indicate there was something special about Christ beyond his being the Firstborn, probably would explain why he was chosen to be the Firstborn in my opinion.Was Lucifer the second-born, then?Do we even know what deity is? What the quality of being that defines one as deity?Yeah we know what deities are. Supernatural beings that have divine qualities. They can be called gods, although god is/has been inclusive of more than just deities over the course of time.Also I don't think we know how deity actually occurs except in our own cases where God has been clear about the process (well, clear up to a point)---we become deity by becoming one with him.This does not preclude other ways, however. It is possible in my view that there are those beings that have always been deity throughout their eternal existence or who have achieved that state solely through their own efforts. Mankind in general are not able to do so. My personal opinion is that Christ could have become on his own or was deity eternally, that he accepted the subordinate role of Firstborn out of pure love and a desire to serve others. That is how he was able to be sinless through his own agency, thus qualifying him to be our Redeemer through the Atonement.Thanks very much for your explanation.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 It is quite clear in D&C 132:37 that at least some mortals have made it to God-hood. There is some threshold you have to cross to get there but likely these crusty old guys are still working hard at it.D&C 137 has Joseph Smith describing seeing those who are in the Celestial Kingdom, he is surprised to see his brother Alvin who died prior to the Restoration.If I were him, I probably would have been more surprised to see my parents, knowing that one of them was standing next to me and the other was alive and well at home....unless I understood the vision to be of a future state.I don't see anything in 132 that requires it not to be of the same time of viewing of a future event told as if it had already occurred just like 137.Since I am not sure time even works the same way outside of mortality as it does in mortality, the term "future" may be irrelevant to postmortal beings.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Was Lucifer the second-born, then?No.thesometimesaint was second-born.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 mmmcounts:Sir TheSomeTimeSaint is awkward and more than a little presupposing. The only Title of Nobility I ever desired is that of Dad. But TSTS will do in a pinch. Bahahaha! I like that.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about the whole spirit-children thing. Is/was there any sense in which Lucifer's status as Jesus' brother was more significant than yours is, or is it exactly the same thing?Lucifer is described as high among the councils of God, but I don't know if he is identified as second in greatness to Christ...my memory says he is not.the Book of Moses describes the relationship of intelligences, God tells Moses that he is among the great ones...but I don't know of any ranking save that God is above all (now whether that is God the Father or God the Son speaking is sometimes debated).
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I don't see anything in 132 that requires it not to be of the same time of viewing of a future event told as if it had already occurred Can we apply this reasoning to other things given what sounds convenient? God was clearly talking in past tense. That is a very confusing revelation if he is talking about the future.
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