mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:That is why I said we are not strict Monotheist like the Muslims, and modern Jews. Typically in Henotheism they pick and chose which God(s) to worship. We don't. To us there is but one God(in the Christian concept of Godhead) whom we worship. But we do recognize others MAY exist.Ps. In looking at your screen name I notice a date. Is that the date you joined the Church?I wasn't aware of the "maybe" clause. I had heard that God the Father produced spirit children with a Heavenly Mother, though her name is unknown. (Pretty sure there's another thread on that right now). Also some things about heavenly parents of Heavenly Father, along with their own parents. I guess Heavenly Mother must have come from somewhere too, right?Anyway, Islam and Judaism are generally referred to as strict monotheism while Christianity has historically been referred to as Trinitarian Monotheism. If you call LDS monotheistic, what kind of monotheism is it? What is the word that you'd put in front of "monotheism" instead of "Trinitarian"?
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Can you think of any candidates besides Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the father and mother of Heavenly Father, and....Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, maybe, or anyone else who attained the highest state of theosis? (Divinization, exaltation, I'm not sure of the exact term). Do you know of any brothers and sisters that Heavenly Father had, even if you don't know their names? If so, would they count as deities as well?The Proclamation on the Family specifically mentions "Heavenly Parents."This strongly implies the existence of a Heavenly Mother, who would likely be an exalted human female - a goddess if you like.
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 No. No others.You don't like my candidates from D&C 132:37?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:That is why I said we are not strict Monotheist like the Muslims, and modern Jews. Typically in Henotheism they pick and chose which God(s) to worship. We don't. To us there is but one God(in the Christian concept of Godhead) whom we worship. But we do recognize others MAY exist.Ps. In looking at your screen name I notice a date. Is that the date you joined the Church?No I was born in 1986 I converted in 2004. As far as I have seen henotheists believe in many gods and worship one supreme God. As LDS we cannot claim to be Monotheist when we believe that the Godhead is made up of three gods with God the Father as supreme. Monotheist means there is one God and only one God we do not believe that. I do not doubt that some henotheists might choose which God is supreme, in a sense we do too since we are free to worship any God (since we have agency) but choose to worship the one True God, Elohim!
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Also some things about heavenly parents of Heavenly Father, along with their own parents. I guess Heavenly Mother must have come from somewhere too, right?You probably did not hear anything about this as the farthest an LDS leader has speculated on this is the King Follet Sermon and the Snow Couplet.Anyway, Islam and Judaism are generally referred to as strict monotheism while Christianity has historically been referred to as Trinitarian Monotheism. If you call LDS monotheistic, what kind of monotheism is it? What is the word that you'd put in front of "monotheism" instead of "Trinitarian"?Henotheistic is probably an accurate way to describe LDS theology, although most mormons would tell you they are strictly monotheists.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 No. No others.Ok. Thanks very much.Nope. The speculation that such may exist is merely one strand of LDS thought, and does not rise to the level of LDS belief.Which strand is that? Does it belong to a particular denomination of the LDS church? And one more quick question about LDS thought- does LDS thought ever include the eternal existence of God from eternity past, or does it always include a "time when He was not"? IOW, are there any strands of LDS thought where God is "without beginning" or do all the strands include a beginning of some kind?Ummmm -- no.Thanks again for your answers.Is there a point to any of these questions?Um....to get answers to the questions? And the reason- I know some things about this topic, but not as much as I'd like to. I picked this topic because it's a topic I want to know more about. That's the goal.Thank you for your help.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Why all the beating around the bush?The answer is 2 Gods. There are 2 LDS deities - HF and JC.I have always been under the impression that the HG is also a god, just without a physical body (I guess he will take his body during the millennial reign). Why have a non exalted being in the Godhead?
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 You probably did not hear anything about this as the farthest an LDS leader has speculated on this is the King Follet Sermon and the Snow Couplet.Cool! I hadn't heard of that. I'll have to look that up.Henotheistic is probably an accurate way to describe LDS theology, although most mormons would tell you they are strictly monotheists.So I've been hearing. One way or the other, anyway. Thanks! This looks really similar to what I heard from the LDS missionaries that were willing to talk about it in some detail.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 I have always been under the impression that the HG is also a god, just without a physical body (I guess he will take his body during the millennial reign). Why have a non exalted being in the Godhead?Kind of hard to indwell a bunch of people if you have a physical body, right?
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I have always been under the impression that the HG is also a god, just without a physical body (I guess he will take his body during the millennial reign). Why have a non exalted being in the Godhead?I've thought about this too. My understanding is that you have to be endowed (Temple ordinances) before you can go through the exaltation process toward deification. These rules are very strict. I mean, look at how Jesus had to get baptized and all...No, I think it is safe to assume the HG is not a God but only JC and HF.Answer: 2 Gods.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I've thought about this too. My understanding is that you have to be endowed (Temple ordinances) before you can go through the exaltation process toward deification. These rules are very strict. I mean, look at how Jesus had to get baptized and all...No, I think it is safe to assume the HG is not a God but only JC and HF.Answer: 2 Gods.Jesus Christ was always a god he is Jehovah the god of the Old Testament. He never became a god like we will, if this was the case he could of never atoned for our sins. There is only two ways to interpret John 1:1, and that is Christ is God the Father or Christ is a god.The same applies to the Holy Ghost, he is a god already because of his position in the Godhead, he doesn't have a physical body though (just like Jehovah didn't until he was born as Jesus Christ).
Questing Beast Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I have always been under the impression that the HG is also a god, just without a physical body (I guess he will take his body during the millennial reign). Why have a non exalted being in the Godhead?I've heard speculation on WHAT, even WHO the HG is; one I recall in particular is that the HG is a "calling" that each prophet of each dispensation occupies prior to HIS dispensation when he will then be born as a mortal man. I don't know where this one originates; and I don't care to go look for it as this is entirely a non issue personally.As I said above, the RCC "Trinity" implies answers never specifically laid out. It is a better theology, imho. And Joseph Smith's early theology went along with trinity theology nicely. Only later did he get into deeper water than even he was "wont to swim in". His last theology (current LDS theology) raises far more questions about WHAT "God" is than it answers....
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 So I've been hearing. One way or the other, anyway. Thanks! This looks really similar to what I heard from the LDS missionaries that were willing to talk about it in some detail.LDS theology is 'barely' henotheistic in that the existence of other deities is at most indirectly implied.The worship, doctrines and ordinances are all squarely monotheistic.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 I've heard speculation on WHAT, even WHO the HG is; one I recall in particular is that the HG is a "calling" that each prophet of each dispensation occupies prior to HIS dispensation when he will then be born as a mortal man. I don't know where this one originates; and I don't care to go look for it as this is entirely a non issue personally.As I said above, the RCC "Trinity" implies answers never specifically laid out. It is a better theology, imho. And Joseph Smith's early theology went along with trinity theology nicely. Only later did he get into deeper water than even he was "wont to swim in". His last theology (current LDS theology) raises far more questions about WHAT "God" is than it answers....I agree completely even though we have more insight into the Godhead than other denominations we are far from having all the answers! In fact our restored truth about the Godhead only brings more questions than the trinitarians have!This is why faith is needed, we are not suppose to (or are capable) of understanding everything about the nature of God and the universe. I doubt that we will ever understand everything unless we are worthy enough to achieve godhood!
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 cion:At the end of Jesus earthly ministry he said that he would send the Comforter(Holy Ghost). So clearly the Holy Ghost is not God the Father or Jesus the Christ. Early Christians in the Bible have referred to the Godhead, and have included the Holy Ghost in it.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 His last theology (current LDS theology) raises far more questions about WHAT "God" is than it answers....Disagree.Joseph Smiths later theology, including the KFD, is a massive improvement of the labyrinthine ball of confusion called the Trinity.The LDS doctrine of Deification fills in a huge theological knowledge gap.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 No I was born in 1986 I converted in 2004.Hey birthday buddy! I was born in '86 as well. Never converted at all, though.As far as I have seen henotheists believe in many gods and worship one supreme God.Me too, and my understanding of the way it breaks down is monolatrism (believe in more than one god but worship only one god all the time) and kathenotheism (you might switch up which gods you worship, but always one at a time). I think kathenotheism might be related to a hierarchical sort of model, but I'm still muddling through that a little bit.As LDS we cannot claim to be Monotheist when we believe that the Godhead is made up of three gods with God the Father as supreme.That's what I'd been thinking, but I hear different things from different people. I'm still working out the reasons for saying one thing or another and the reasons behind either of the claims. Monotheist means there is one God and only one God we do not believe that.That was what I thought, but again, I hear different things sometimes. I do not doubt that some henotheists might choose which God is supreme, in a sense we do too since we are free to worship any God (since we have agency) but choose to worship the one True God, Elohim!Thanks very much for your input! I'm tempted to follow a rabbit trail from this part of your post, but it's just a hypothetical non-real so I'd better leave it alone.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 LDS theology is 'barely' henotheistic in that the existence of other deities is at most indirectly implied.The worship, doctrines and ordinances are all squarely monotheistic.Section 132 is not indirect, the first vision in not indirect. Joseph Smith said he saw two exalted beings above him in the grove. How is that monotheistic?
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 The same applies to the Holy Ghost, he is a god already because of his position in the Godhead, he doesn't have a physical body though (just like Jehovah didn't until he was born as Jesus Christ).OK, you've convinced me. I change my answer.Answer: 3 Gods.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 Jesus Christ was always a god he is Jehovah the god of the Old Testament. He never became a god like we will, if this was the case he could of never atoned for our sins. There is only two ways to interpret John 1:1, and that is Christ is God the Father or Christ is a god.The same applies to the Holy Ghost, he is a god already because of his position in the Godhead, he doesn't have a physical body though (just like Jehovah didn't until he was born as Jesus Christ).That is really good! You just helped me understand a ton about LDS theology.
SilverKnight Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Section 132 is not indirect, the first vision in not indirect. I'm talking about the mortal experience and parentage of God the Father.Those are speculative topics where the current understanding is more implied than revealed.Joseph Smith said he saw two exalted beings above him in the grove. How is that monotheistic?Correct. Mormons are perhaps most correctly described as 'Bi-Theistic' then.
cion Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Correct. Mormons are perhaps most correctly described as 'Bi-Theistic' then....or Tri-Theistic since there is a good change the HG is God too.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:You youngsters. I was born in 1951 and converted in 1971.
Calm Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 If one wants to include in the speculation any mortals that have progressed to exaltation status (and thus may have received the fullness of all the blessings the Lord has promised, becoming fully one with Him...and therefore one could describe that individual as "deity"), then one has to consider at what time these blessings are fulfilled, iow when does the Final Judgment occur at which time we are told we are placed in the Kingdoms...is it a one time advent for all humanity, a two or three time event (depending on when one was born and whether of the Book of the Lamb or not), before the Second Coming and the Millennium or afterwards (of those scriptures where Joseph describes seeing people in the Celestial, at least some were 'foretellings' in that the individuals he described as seeing were still alive at the time).----On another note, since mortal men at least become deity through being one with God, then there may only be one actual deity, just many members of it, our conception of deity as an individual state of being may be faulty.
mmmcounts Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 Jesus Christ was always a god he is Jehovah the god of the Old Testament. He never became a god like we will, if this was the case he could of never atoned for our sins.Now that I think about it a little more, this part of your response raises a question for me. According to LDS teaching, Jesus had a brother and that was Lucifer. Did he have the capacity to atone for our sins, although he did not? And what's his status in deity-terms? Is it a situation where there's two brothers from the same parents but one of them's a deity and the other's not? How does that happen- is it congenital or does it happen over time? Was the status of deity gained or lost in either case?
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