Lost in the church.

[Mudcat]

A consistent message I have heard in throughout the years in my EV/SBC church is in how it relates to the lost in the church. Many services are an attempt to provide the HS to call such folks to Christ.

Hopefully, you will note my use of the "church" (little c) in the OP and that past statement.

I understand that LDS, seem to, believe that baptisms and the Gift of the Holy Ghost can be given to insincere people and that such actions are retroactive in relation to belief. Dunno how much disunity their is on the matter.. but it seems to be the general consensus.

From my standpoint as it relates to my own views, people can make intellectual and emotional decisions about God which have no real validity because the Holy Spirit calling such persons is not an existent factor. I suppose like the "tares" or the "depart from me I know you not" type folks.

I dunno how much relation such concepts are comparative to LDS. But I am curious.

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

My attendance at LDS meetings has been self restricted to conference type scenarios.

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

[TAO]

0.o I took a look at the last sentance, and this is gonna be an awesome topic =D.

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Yes, I do believe that... but not because of their personal beliefs generally... more from an absense of caring, or an unwillingness to open. I realize that others who are not list may differ in belief from me, but truly, I think that is between me and God, and then between that person and God. But for those who act like they believe, but in actuality, are not even trying; those are the lost, I think =/.

My attendance at LDS meetings has been self restricted to conference type scenarios.

Hehe, you should stop by more often =D. Sometimes the Sunday-school classes are really great actually. My teacher passed away recently... she was one of the best .

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Yes! It's called family home teaching and it's quite fun =D.

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

Assuming you mean called by the Spirit as in felt the Spirit...

I would consider them not a true believer at that moment.

Alas, for some people, it is just that their time hasn't come yet. So I don't judge them for it.

I hope that their time will come in the future, and will do my best to help them =).

[Sky]

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

It is possible, but that depends entirely on how they keep the covenants that they have made. It is personal for everybody.

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

Ever heard of the Home teaching program? Each month a companionship of two men is assigned to visit a set number of families in their ward. Ideally, every family in the ward should have home teachers and be visited every month. That is one small way that we reach out to our members and help them to come unto Christ. We are all in different places in our journey to come unto Christ, but we try to do what we can to help and support each other. As long as we are trying to come unto Christ and keep His commandments (no matter how bad we are at it at times), we can still rightfully be called a Christian.

[Garden Girl]

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Hello Mudcat...

I also believe that someone who is not really committed to the gospel and Christ despite baptism, etc., will face consequences... brings to mind scripture:

Rev. 3:15-16..."I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

GG

[jadams_4242]

A consistent message I have heard in throughout the years in my EV/SBC church is in how it relates to the lost in the church. Many services are an attempt to provide the HS to call such folks to Christ.

Hopefully, you will note my use of the "church" (little c) in the OP and that past statement.

I understand that LDS, seem to, believe that baptisms and the Gift of the Holy Ghost can be given to insincere people and that such actions are retroactive in relation to belief. Dunno how much disunity their is on the matter.. but it seems to be the general consensus.

From my standpoint as it relates to my own views, people can make intellectual and emotional decisions about God which have no real validity because the Holy Spirit calling such persons is not an existent factor. I suppose like the "tares" or the "depart from me I know you not" type folks.

I dunno how much relation such concepts are comparative to LDS. But I am curious.

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

My attendance at LDS meetings has been self restricted to conference type scenarios.

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

the spirit of the lord is not given to go into unholy places; where there is true holiness he will be with that person at all times; it is up to the individual how many blessings he/she desires. heavenly father wants us all to have the best; but its entirely up to the individual.

[nicolasconnault]

It is possible, but that depends entirely on how they keep the covenants that they have made. It is personal for everybody.

Ever heard of the Home teaching program? Each month a companionship of two men is assigned to visit a set number of families in their ward. Ideally, every family in the ward should have home teachers and be visited every month. That is one small way that we reach out to our members and help them to come unto Christ. We are all in different places in our journey to come unto Christ, but we try to do what we can to help and support each other. As long as we are trying to come unto Christ and keep His commandments (no matter how bad we are at it at times), we can still rightfully be called a Christian.

Let me add to this that each sister of the Relief Society (all LDS females 18 and over) also receives a monthly visit by two sisters. This is the program.

However, in practice this is often not followed through. Sisters are usually quite good at visiting each other, but men typically struggle to get their visits done. This stems from many reasons, including lifestyle choices whereby very little time is left for such visits; and lack of accountability: many priesthood holders consider their home teaching assignments to be a rather low priority.

I personally visit all my 3 families every month, and have done so since I've been in this ward for over a year and half. I wasn't quite as assiduous in the past, although I tried. I can tell you right now that when this home teaching program is followed, it makes a massive difference in people's lives! Friendships develop, concerns are shared and dealt with before they become too problematic, and many souls are rescued before they are lost. It is much easier to hold on to our members than to rescue them after they have left.

[Robert F. Smith]

A consistent message I have heard in throughout the years in my EV/SBC church is in how it relates to the lost in the church. Many services are an attempt to provide the HS to call such folks to Christ.

I recall a general conference address by President Spencer Kimball back in the late 70s in which he directly addressed those Mormons who had (for one reason or another) left the faith. He concluded his remarks by softly saying "Oh, come back. Oh, come back." Some did.

I have often heard LDS leaders cite the story of the Prodigal Son in this same context, and Hugh Nibley used to choke up when recounting the Jewish legend of Abraham searching for some lost soul in the wilderness.

I understand that LDS seem to believe that baptisms and the Gift of the Holy Ghost can be given to insincere people and that such actions are retroactive in relation to belief. Dunno how much disunity their is on the matter, but it seems to be the general consensus.

From my standpoint as it relates to my own views, people can make intellectual and emotional decisions about God which have no real validity because the Holy Spirit calling such persons is not an existent factor. I suppose like the "tares" or the "depart from me I know you not" type folks.

I dunno how much relation such concepts are comparative to LDS. But I am curious.

Since temple-going Mormons do ordinances for literally everyone, there is surely a question of which departed person will accept such ordinances, even if we assume that most will accept it.

However, lack of sincerity in the living is a matter of utter hypocrisy if it involves baptism, confirmation, etc., and no Mormons I know take such a matter lightly. Hint: See I Corinthians 11:27, "whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord"; 29, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnatiion to himself." Pretty heavy stuff, and those being prepared for baptism are made to understand that faith and true repentance are essential prior to baptism.

Naturally, such efforts begin with whatever the proselyte has to bring as a babe in Christ, and can be built upon later. So, when someone comes down to accept Christ during a Billy Graham style revival, he is merely beginning a long journey -- provided he sticks it out and endures to the end (I use this example only because it may be more familiar to you). Just so, Mormon converts begin small and build their testimonies, little by little, starting with "milk" and later graduating to the "meat" of the Gospel.

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Are you asking essentially whether some Mormons go through the motions in Church for social reasons having nothing to do with true religion or sincere belief? Hypocrites can be found anywhere, as can people who are just confused and unsure. This may especially be the case for youthful members who attend only because "mommy made me," who must eventually seek their own mode of confirmation, whether something almost ineffable (the assurance of the still small voice of the Holy Spirit) or something more akin to a vision on the road to Damascus.

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Yes. Were you to attend Sunday School as well as Priesthood Meetings (outsiders are always welcome to either or both), you would find members formally bearing their testimonies and recounting personal experiences. This is also a feature of Fast & Testimony Meeting the first Sunday of each month during which members of any age can get up and bear their testimonies. This takes place immediately following the passing of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper and lasts about an hour. Fasting is believed to enhance the influence of the Spirit.

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

No. Only God knows who his Saints are, and the notion of being "called" by the Holy Spirit is not part of Mormon parlance. Baptism by Fire and the Holy Ghost is an ordinance which follows water baptism. Whether individual members cultivate and develop spiritual strength by seeking the constant company of the Holy Ghost, or grieve the Holy Ghost through misconduct is a matter of great importance. And a Church council can be called to aid such miscreants through disfellowshipment or excommunication from the body of Christ.

The Mormons are a people (to an even greater degree than the Hutterite Brethren), and Mormonism is a communal enterprise. We are the Saints of the Last Days, preparing the way of the Lord by restoring all things and spreading the true Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the Earth. All things will be wrapped up in an apocalyptic crescendo which will accord with everything you have read in Scripture.

[Glenn101]

Mudcat,

I am a little uncomfortable making judgments about fellow members of the church. There are people in all stages of spiritual progression in and out of the church. I do not feel it my place to decide which ones are "true" Christians and which ones are juat treading water. It is my responsibility to live the very best I can and reach out a helping hand to those who need it. It is up to them whether they except it, just as it is up to the individual to accept or reject the gospel, to live by it or just go throug the motions. But while there is life, there is hope.

Glenn

[CV75]

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

We are all sinners according to the light that we posses. It is not right to judge another down the pew. But I agree that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could be struggling with sin, pridefully and/or hypocritically sinning, falling short of the glory, a wolf in sheep's clothing, etc. At some point the Spirit may cease to strive with such a person.

As far as "fooling oneself," this can be deliberate (denial, hypocrisy) or not (desperation, inexperience, mistakes) or something in between (lack of faith).

If someone comes forth with a problem, or otherwise becomes exposed, we minister to them. We proselytize members in the sense of sacrament meeting, axillary and quorum lessons, institute and seminary, home and visiting teaching, church publications, etc.

In line with the idea of those who have not been called: many are called but few are chosen. I think God is very liberal and merciful in His definition of who are chosen (Matthew 20, 22); those not chosen self-select due to pride and behavior (D&C 121: 34-40). Those who are His can be considered Christians in the real/significant respect. "Chosen" can be those who are on their way to becoming chosen as well as those who have received their calling and election--as often is the case, things LDS come in and by degrees. God is reaching out and encouraging all.

The light of Christ of course is available to everyone ever born, and in this sense they are called to honor Christ by honoring their conscience. Christ loves all is children, Christian or not, and has prepared a way for them to be saved in the highest kingdom. If people heed this light, which is different than the Holy Spirit and so does not function as a direct call to covenant with Christ, but does lead them to that which is good, thus readying them to receive the power of the Holy Ghost, which will lead them to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, they will ultimately be chosen as well.

[Mudcat]

Ever heard of the Home teaching program? Each month a companionship of two men is assigned to visit a set number of families in their ward. Ideally, every family in the ward should have home teachers and be visited every month. That is one small way that we reach out to our members and help them to come unto Christ. We are all in different places in our journey to come unto Christ, but we try to do what we can to help and support each other. As long as we are trying to come unto Christ and keep His commandments (no matter how bad we are at it at times), we can still rightfully be called a Christian.

Hi Sky,

In regards to the HTP, I have heard of it, but didn't know that there was supposed to be such frequency to the visits. I have had no experience with such consistent format.

In our area, the local branch is a very small one. Less than 30 regular attendees IIRC. The majority being elderly and only a few men. We have actually had such activities at the house, but I can count on one hand the times it's occurred in the last decade.

I would imagine the lack of visitation is related to a lack of resources. Normally, when people have come by for such it was a member accompanied by a missionary.

Thanks for giving me the details on it.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Let me add to this that each sister of the Relief Society (all LDS females 18 and over) also receives a monthly visit by two sisters. This is the program.

My wife had a spurt of these visits, when we had a male/female missionary couple in the are. The Sister would find another female to help from month to month and she was very consistent with it for the time she was here.

edit add

@ All.

Thanks for the responses so far. My day has gotten a bit busy but hopefully I will have some time over the weekend to respond and ask a couple of questions on the subject.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Yes...and there have been times in my life I was that man. Some might argue that I still am.

[Brenda]

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Yes. Our church has a three-fold mission: 1. Redeem the dead. 2. Missionary work. 3. Perfection of the saints.

In addition to the home teaching and visiting teaching programs, we have temple recommend interviews (when we can meet face-to-face with our ecclesiastical leaders to assess our spiritual standing/progress) and constant, ongoing opportunities for every member to participate -- through callings (jobs/assignments) and preaching from the pulpit. I don't have much experience in other religions, but it seems to me that we proselytize each other more actively than most others.

For example Mudcat, how many times have you given a talk/speech to your own congregation? Do you teach a class, or have the assignment of overseeing other teachers? Do you participate in the administration of your church? Do you lead music, organize group sports, plan activities, visit other congregations of your faith to speak publicly or assist in other ways in your religious community? Do you research your ancestors to be sure that they had the opportunity to be baptized as Christ said was universally necessary? Do you assist in keeping administrative records? Do you participate in missionary work? Do you assist in, or donate to, the humanitarian welfare of others on both a global and local basis and abstain from food and drink one day each month, donating those unspent dollars to the poor? Do you donate 10% financially, and more?

Service to others is one of the most effective ways to emulate Christ, which in turn, brings each of us a little closer to heaven. And we are a religion of service and sacrifice. All of this is a form of proselytizing.

Btw, thanks for asking.

[Lightbearer]

Does the believing LDS, also believe that the man down the pew from him could be lost? By that I mean is it possible that someone despite baptism, endowment and so forth could simply be fooling themselves?

Do LDS proselytize their members?

Would LDS agree with me that a person who hasn't actually been called by the Holy Spirit is not a Christian in any significant/real respect?

While I think this has been answered by others here, I thought I would give some scriptural precedence for this idea:

(Romans 13:11-14) "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Here Paul is talking to the Saints, not the world, so this idea seems to go back a little that while a person can have a testimony it does not mean his salvation is assured. The Lord Himself taught this to Peter, who even though flesh and blood had not revealed the fact of Christ divinity, but His Father in heaven, yet still Jesus encouraged him: "When thou art converted strenthen thy bretheren" this would have been an odd thing to say if all that was needed was to confess the Christ and be baptized (both of which Peter had done previous to this statement). The Book of Mormon gives a plainer rendition of this teaching:

(2 Nephi 31:15-20) "And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

This enduring to the end is the key to eternal life, the key to accepting the atonement and making it effective in our lives. Alma further defined this process:

(Alma 5:14-36) "And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth? Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say

[Mudcat]

I recall a general conference address by President Spencer Kimball back in the late 70s in which he directly addressed those Mormons who had (for one reason or another) left the faith. He concluded his remarks by softly saying "Oh, come back. Oh, come back." Some did.

I have often heard LDS leaders cite the story of the Prodigal Son in this same context, and Hugh Nibley used to choke up when recounting the Jewish legend of Abraham searching for some lost soul in the wilderness.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for such an articulated response. I appreciate the citations of LDS leaders who have seemed to reach out to what they percieved to be those that may be lost that could be within their faith. In general, this is sort of what I was looking for.

Since temple-going Mormons do ordinances for literally everyone, there is surely a question of which departed person will accept such ordinances, even if we assume that most will accept it.

However, lack of sincerity in the living is a matter of utter hypocrisy if it involves baptism, confirmation, etc., and no Mormons I know take such a matter lightly. Hint: See I Corinthians 11:27, "whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord"; 29, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnatiion to himself." Pretty heavy stuff, and those being prepared for baptism are made to understand that faith and true repentance are essential prior to baptism.

Naturally, such efforts begin with whatever the proselyte has to bring as a babe in Christ, and can be built upon later. So, when someone comes down to accept Christ during a Billy Graham style revival, he is merely beginning a long journey -- provided he sticks it out and endures to the end (I use this example only because it may be more familiar to you). Just so, Mormon converts begin small and build their testimonies, little by little, starting with "milk" and later graduating to the "meat" of the Gospel.

I appreciate the parallel with Billy Graham. And I understand the proviso of sticking it out that you offered.

I suppose what sparked my thought on the matter, was a general understanding I have on the the retro-activity of salvific ordinances amongst LDS. My info has been gleaned from odd and end discussions that were more related to the age of accountability. From my understanding on the matter, as it is germane to this discussion.

LDS seem to believe that there are some that receive salvific ordinances before their actual understanding of such ordinances but these ordinances are retroactive upon "proper" belief at some point. Perhaps these previous members of the leadership of TCoJCoLDS were addressing such people. I am wondering is that a commonplace occurrence, in a public sense?

Are you asking essentially whether some Mormons go through the motions in Church for social reasons having nothing to do with true religion or sincere belief? Hypocrites can be found anywhere, as can people who are just confused and unsure. This may especially be the case for youthful members who attend only because "mommy made me," who must eventually seek their own mode of confirmation, whether something almost ineffable (the assurance of the still small voice of the Holy Spirit) or something more akin to a vision on the road to Damascus.

Certainly and sadly hypocrisy is abundant in any faith. Bold mine, I wasn't asking this essentially, but your directed sentiment has got me thinking a bit...

Likely it would be better suited for a thread of it's own, but I don't mind a bit of a derail on this one, either.

Do you think there is possibly a bit of keeping up with the "Celestial" Jones' that occurs? The question has more to do with intent, but IMO intent adds or subtracts weight from any given course of action IMO.

Yes. Were you to attend Sunday School as well as Priesthood Meetings (outsiders are always welcome to either or both), you would find members formally bearing their testimonies and recounting personal experiences. This is also a feature of Fast & Testimony Meeting the first Sunday of each month during which members of any age can get up and bear their testimonies. This takes place immediately following the passing of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper and lasts about an hour. Fasting is believed to enhance the influence of the Spirit.

The path I have been given so far, of service in my local SBC church, usually diverts me from such attendance. Though I am certainly curious to the goings on of it.

No. Only God knows who his Saints are, and the notion of being "called" by the Holy Spirit is not part of Mormon parlance. Baptism by Fire and the Holy Ghost is an ordinance which follows water baptism. Whether individual members cultivate and develop spiritual strength by seeking the constant company of the Holy Ghost, or grieve the Holy Ghost through misconduct is a matter of great importance. And a Church council can be called to aid such miscreants through disfellowshipment or excommunication from the body of Christ.

Bold mine Robert. In my own view, being called by the HS, or perhaps rephrased, being elected of God, isn't something that is privy to anyone save such called/elected individuals and God.

Though perhaps "called" may not be a term of common usage amongst LDS, I will try to paraphrase the statement.

Can an LDS reach celestial glory without a witness from the Holy Spirit?

From an experiential standpoint, "called by" and "witnessed by" are synonymous in this regard.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[TAO]

LDS seem to believe that there are some that receive salvific ordinances before their actual understanding of such ordinances but these ordinances are retroactive upon "proper" belief at some point. Perhaps these previous members of the leadership of TCoJCoLDS were addressing such people. I am wondering is that a commonplace occurrence, in a public sense?

Yes, indeed we do... I would say that even at my time of baptism, I didn't quite understand the importance of it. I would go through baptism again if the Lord asked me to though. What matters, though, I think, is how it all ends up in the end =).

Do you think there is possibly a bit of keeping up with the "Celestial" Jones' that occurs? The question has more to do with intent, but IMO intent adds or subtracts weight from any given course of action IMO.

You mean, trying to keep up with someone who looks like they do everything right? I suppose so... though it has never been that way for me. For me, I see how I am supposed to be, and try to aim for it. I don't really look at others as being 'celestial'... although I do look upon others as having several good traits which I might decide to implement myself. But ultimately, I look at it as between me and God... and that other people won't matter. But as said, I don't look at it in a normal way, so yah... I guess I'm just talking randomly a bit XD. They could, but I have no idea if they do =D.

Bold mine Robert. In my own view, being called by the HS, or perhaps rephrased, being elected of God, isn't something that is privy to anyone save such called/elected individuals and God.

Though perhaps "called" may not be a term of common usage amongst LDS, I will try to paraphrase the statement.

We do use the word called... but what God calls us to may be different for each individual. Some may be called to service. Others may be called to leadership. Others may be called to have spirtual gifts and what not. To be called, for us, is to be set aside, so we have the ability to do what God wills us to do.

And so they say, there are many called, but few chosen... because it takes personal choice to lead you to be chosen =).

Can an LDS reach celestial glory without a witness from the Holy Spirit?

I would assume so, but I think it would be harder for them than it would be for a person who had no knowledge whatsoever. It really depends on how much their thoughts have considered the question, I think. I would also think, that it would be somewhat rare - as being in the church is to expose yourself to ideas that most often make you consider something. It takes a limited degree of knowledge, or a correct choice for you to receive the celestial. Those without witness would have to fall under limited degree of knowledge.

From an experiential standpoint, "called by" and "witnessed by" are synonymous in this regard.

Ah, I used called differently than, earlier... I was referring to calls to action =). But I suppose it could also refer to this as well.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Always a pleasure to converse with you,

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Mudcat]

Yes, indeed we do... I would say that even at my time of baptism, I didn't quite understand the importance of it. I would go through baptism again if the Lord asked me to though. What matters, though, I think, is how it all ends up in the end =).

Hi TAO,

This area, is certainly a distinction between our views. Lot's of reasons for those differences that would span quite a few issues. Chiefly, as I see it, retroactive ordinances make sense in the LDS paradigm because of Priesthood authority. To say such ordinances were ineffective would literally be a challenging the efficacy of said Priesthood authority. I on the other hand, don't hold that any physical ordinance like baptism by immersion, has any salvific impact. Quite a contrast for sure, but I agree that good endings make up for bad starts.

You mean, trying to keep up with someone who looks like they do everything right? I suppose so... though it has never been that way for me. For me, I see how I am supposed to be, and try to aim for it. I don't really look at others as being 'celestial'... although I do look upon others as having several good traits which I might decide to implement myself. But ultimately, I look at it as between me and God... and that other people won't matter. But as said, I don't look at it in a normal way, so yah... I guess I'm just talking randomly a bit XD. They could, but I have no idea if they do =D.

I seem to share some similar views on life TAO, as you. Being concerned with what others think about what I do or how I do something has never had much an impetus for me. I figure if try your best to follow Christ, you may be in for quite a few personal let downs, but you still can't do much better.

However, I am cognizant that even in my own church, there is a bit a "country club" atmosphere amongst some. I figure it must be the same everywhere to some degree. People seeking social authority. My spot of the world is predominantly EV.

Perhaps some seek the need to be a figure of church leadership.. like a Deacon/Elder, committee member, or something or another, in the EV community, to keep up with the Jones' on a social level.

Perhaps some assign such value the way some one else assigns the value that they must drive a particular type of car to be successful. I remember when Stone Cold Steve Austin set the backdrop for the cool factor behind shaved heads and goatees.

I would imagine it might not be that different in a cultural environment that was predominantly LDS. Dunno really.

I suppose my motivation for looking directly to Christ, is that men tend to fail and fall short or the example. As I think about it, perhaps I am being a bit critical of folks who just don't see it the same way I do. Maybe they realize, "Hey I don't really stand a chance of being like Christ. But John/Jane does a real good job at it. Maybe I can at least do as well as they have." I suppose in this respect, keeping up with the Jones would be something good then.

Likely there is something behind the mentality I won't ever really understand.

We do use the word called... but what God calls us to may be different for each individual. Some may be called to service. Others may be called to leadership. Others may be called to have spirtual gifts and what not. To be called, for us, is to be set aside, so we have the ability to do what God wills us to do.

And so they say, there are many called, but few chosen... because it takes personal choice to lead you to be chosen =).

We use the same term in the same way often.

I would assume so, but I think it would be harder for them than it would be for a person who had no knowledge whatsoever. It really depends on how much their thoughts have considered the question, I think. I would also think, that it would be somewhat rare - as being in the church is to expose yourself to ideas that most often make you consider something. It takes a limited degree of knowledge, or a correct choice for you to receive the celestial. Those without witness would have to fall under limited degree of knowledge.

Your view seems to reflect the notion of being judged by the light you have been given. Conceptually, I don't disagree.

A key difference would be that I see the Kingdom of God as an "in or out" issue, for the most part. The LDS view seems of multiple kingdoms seems a little more difficult to apply. In the greatest sense, I am glad I am the one who doesn't have to figure all of this out.

Ah, I used called differently than, earlier... I was referring to calls to action =). But I suppose it could also refer to this as well.

To the EV, I would say this is our most significant calling. A call to salvation. Your not wrong IMO, in that a call is a call to action.

Always a pleasure to converse with you,

You as well TAO.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[TAO]

This area, is certainly a distinction between our views. Lot's of reasons for those differences that would span quite a few issues. Chiefly, as I see it, retroactive ordinances make sense in the LDS paradigm because of Priesthood authority. To say such ordinances were ineffective would literally be a challenging the efficacy of said Priesthood authority. I on the other hand, don't hold that any physical ordinance like baptism by immersion, has any salvific impact. Quite a contrast for sure, but I agree that good endings make up for bad starts.

Yah, I agree, the end result is what is going to matter, I think. That is one of the great things about life God has given us really... the ability to learn from our mistakes =). It makes life harder in some instances, but I would have to say that I am very grateful for it nearly all of the time.

I seem to share some similar views on life TAO, as you. Being concerned with what others think about what I do or how I do something has never had much an impetus for me. I figure if try your best to follow Christ, you may be in for quite a few personal let downs, but you still can't do much better.

Yah, same here... the thing is, sometimes I am weak... and sometimes I do heed the mockings of those in the great and spacious building when I shouldn't. I have to remind myself every time I do, that it doesn't matter - that all the world's opinion doesn't matter, as long as I focus on Christ =). Most of the time, I don't usually have a problem with it, but when I do, I really have to isolate myself and think, so I can get back on the right path.

However, I am cognizant that even in my own church, there is a bit a "country club" atmosphere amongst some. I figure it must be the same everywhere to some degree. People seeking social authority. My spot of the world is predominantly EV.

Perhaps some seek the need to be a figure of church leadership.. like a Deacon/Elder, committee member, or something or another, in the EV community, to keep up with the Jones' on a social level.

Perhaps some assign such value the way some one else assigns the value that they must drive a particular type of car to be successful. I remember when Stone Cold Steve Austin set the backdrop for the cool factor behind shaved heads and goatees.

I would imagine it might not be that different in a cultural environment that was predominantly LDS. Dunno really.

Yah, I think we have some too. But to be honest, like you, I myself find it kind of useless... they say... be proud to be a Mormon... 'cept I don't want to be proud at all. I just want to do what feels right sorta =).

I think part of the reason though, that I am not really connected with the social aspect of the church would be because I am an Autistic... we tend to shun social things, even when we get them. We like having a few choice friends and confidants over lots... so I don't know... the social part is probably alot more widespread than I think it is. I tend to be rather ignorant of it XD.

I suppose my motivation for looking directly to Christ, is that men tend to fail and fall short or the example. As I think about it, perhaps I am being a bit critical of folks who just don't see it the same way I do. Maybe they realize, "Hey I don't really stand a chance of being like Christ. But John/Jane does a real good job at it. Maybe I can at least do as well as they have." I suppose in this respect, keeping up with the Jones would be something good then.

Agreed, that is my reason to! I know Christ is perfect and just, and all... so looking to him is much easier. I can become better because I know he is happy and fair... happy and fair people seem to drive me towards self-improvement. People, I have noticed, all have their little downfalls, me most of all (I make so many mistakes every day, repetitively sometimes =P), that it's often just best to look on the good side of things. It is more beneficial I have found to criticize myself than to worry about others, because for every mistake you find in another, you find a worse one in your own being XD. The only problem is... sometimes I get TOO positive, and then I get on people's nerves. I know I got on people's nerves on the board not to be named XD.

Likely there is something behind the mentality I won't ever really understand.

Yah same here... I have heard of people who do this though... perhaps I will ask them someday.

We use the same term in the same way often.

Your view seems to reflect the notion of being judged by the light you have been given. Conceptually, I don't disagree.

A key difference would be that I see the Kingdom of God as an "in or out" issue, for the most part. The LDS view seems of multiple kingdoms seems a little more difficult to apply. In the greatest sense, I am glad I am the one who doesn't have to figure all of this out.

To the EV, I would say this is our most significant calling. A call to salvation. Your not wrong IMO, in that a call is a call to action.

Yes, that's an interesting thing... about the divides and lines and things. Actually, I was having a talk with my Muslim friend about it... about how all of our (EVs, LDS, Muslim, other denominations Christian, Judaic, or otherwise) views on salvation differ kinda. They (Muslims) believe sorta like you do, but they believe in a middle zone that's 'no feeling'-ish, and then they believe there can be progression in between the zones. So sort of a combination in between LDS and EV thoughts on it XD.

I am curious as to what other belief systems there are about salvation... I'm sure we could find some cool ones =).