Just where is the Hill Cumorah?

[Nenahnezad]

You are correct that Chiapas (and other areas of Mexico) can get cold but this is actually a plus for a Mesoamerican setting. The talk of heat and feinting from the heat is a good indicator it was in a subtropical or tropical environment. If you are speaking of metal armor helping to protect from the cold I would disagree it would make you colder now if you are speaking of armor like the skins of animals which is exactly what the BofM says and is exactly what they did in Mesoamerica then again the hits just keep coming for a Mesoamerica setting rather than a great lakes model. Oh and BTW I would much rather be in the cold of Mexico than the cold of New York, just saying.

Good points. But where does it say in the Book of Mormon that warfare ever occurred in the winter months? I believe combatants in the French and Indian Wars and America Revolutionary battles were able to fight, despite the cold of North America. They fought....when it wasn't cold. (Apologies to George Washington crossing the Delaware on Christmas Day.)

Maybe this is why Mormon fled southward, from Cumorah, after the last great battle, because of the onset of winter (and Lake Ontario 20 miles away blocking him) and not having provisions after the destruction of the Nephite nation. Why would he flee south into Mesoamerica - presumably the direction of the attack by the Lamanites - when he could have fled up the coast to present-day Texas to get away from the Lamanites?

Alma 3:2 notes combatants had "trodden down" fields of grain - which could place it both in North America or Mesoamerica. I don't know of grain growing in the winter except winter wheat. Wikipedia: "Winter wheat is a type of wheat that is planted from September to December in the Northern Hemisphere. Winter wheat sprouts before freezing occurs, then becomes dormant until the soil warms in the spring." But it was brought to America in the 19th century from Europe.

And does it not get humid in the Eastern United States as well as Mesoamerica? The NOAA issues heat-stress warnings. http://www.ncdc.noaa...eat-stress.html

"When both temperature and humidity are high, humans can experience considerable heat stress. In the U.S., extreme heat may have greater impact on human health..."

"Cold" is a moot point. (It's not always cold in New York.) These arguments about "cold" makes one wonder how the Smith Family survived living in North America - even if they didn't wear only loincloths.

Anyway, that's my take on it. thanks.

[Kevin Christensen]

In conclusion, from the process of conjecture elimination, the facts that remain tell us that we cannot rule out the hill cumorah location to in fact be in western NY. The facts that do remain also do not rule out that the hills location to be in some other location outside of NY. As of the land of Cumorah in relation to the Land of Bountiful, the narrow neck, the Land of Zarahemla and the land southward we cannot know the true distance of the lnad of Cumorah from each of these places of location from the BoM text. All we know is that Cumorah was north of the lands mentioned. If it was 300 or 3000 miles we cannot know. How is it possible to rule out NY when we do not know the distance it was from popular and frquently mention lands in the BoM like the "narrow neck"?

Sorenson pointed out that all of the pieces of the Book of Mormon geography puzzle have to interlock and fit together. If some passages are ambiguous by themselves, other passages provide significant constraints. It's rather like solving a puzzle on Wheel of Fortune. Every correct guess tells not only tells something about the words, but also provides a limitations on the whole. If we don't have everything, we do have some important and telling constraints, including important ones on distances, as well as culture.

There are some two locations that are actually very specific. Brant has put forward one: "There is an identifiable location mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This requires a land northward of the main Nephite holdings, being devoid of trees, being near much water, and having buildings made of cement. That particular set of characteristics points rather directly at the Teotihuacan of 250-600 AD- which matches the time period in which the Book of Mormon points to this set of characteristics."

Can you point to a location Northward of the New York Drumlin that is devoid of trees, has much water, and has buildings made of cement for the time period specified? And there is more. See Brant's FAIR essay on the Gaddiantons.

Larry Poulson offers another, in demonstrating that of all the rivers in the Western Hemisphere, only the Grijalva matches the detailed textual description of the Sidon. A description that eliminates every candidate but one is, by definition, specific, not vague. The source, for instance, must be in a narrow strip of wilderness that extends from the Eastern Sea to the Western Sea.

Distances in the story provide another set of contraints. From Nephi south of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness to Zarahemla in the Sidon valley is about 22 days foot travel by people with children and flocks. That journey is a constraint on the story of Limhi's explorers, who had been given directions by their living grandparents. And the directions would have been something like, Go North to the Wilderness, find the source of the Sidon, and follow it to Zarahelma. It should take around three weeks. Where ever they went, they thought they had found the ruins of Zarahemla in the Land South. Getting to New York from South of the only river in the Western Hemisphere that fits the textual description of the Sidon might be possible, but it is not possible that having arrived there, and returned, that they would thing they had found Zarahemla in the Land South. It all works nicely however, if they followed the Uscimacinta, whose source is very close to that of the Grijalva. One wrong turns explains everything. And this circumstance is remarkable anywhere.

Some other distances are as specific. For instance, in Mormon's Map, Sorenson examines the military campaigns in detail, and finds that day marches between cities combine to depict around 80 miles of Eastern coastline.

Specific geological features provide other constraints. Active volcanos, for instance. While it might be understandably difficult to find horse bones, how does one go about hiding a volcano? In the bottom of Lake Erie?

Even some of the narrative features that seem ambigious about distances with terms like "many days" or "exceedingly" run into ways that such terms must interrelate with less ambiguous features, and how such terms are used by the authors. Sorenson points out that in 1 Nephi 4, 20-21 "many years" turns out to be eight. (Mormon's Map, 72).

I found that in the Book of Mormon the word "exceeding" never appears to describe the order of magnitude that might justify distance to the New York Hill that makes sense with either Mesoamerican or far less, a South American Zarahemla, but rather that a circumstance exceeds normal measures or efforts.

"And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). He was teenager, soon to be married.

"And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). How much can four young men carry?

"They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). One can assume that even half again normal size would be dramatic enough.

"And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). This is talking about a spiritual experience. But a mountain even half again as high as its neighbors looks dramatically larger.

"Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be? The text makes sense with twice normal size, but 10 or 20 times is unrealistic.

The use of such terms is not a blank check, permission to justify anything, but cause for caution, and a need to ensure that the locations and distances must work with a real world correlation, which means looking for as many contraining details in related texts as possible. The story and details must make sense in human terms.

One of the nice things that Larry Poulson points out about the Grijalva as Sidon is that such a location provides a parallel river with a proximate source for which the story of how Limhi's explorers got lost, and for the distane they travel, makes sense. And there is no way for the story to make sense if you try to tie it to a New York Cumorah region. (I provided some maps in my essay in FR 16:1). And there is also no way for the story of the volcanic destruction in 3 Nephi to make sense.

All the parts must interact and interlock. This is true in the story of Omer in Ether. Sperry observes that the Hill Shim in the Land of Antum is proximate to the larger land of desolation which borders the Narrow Neck. The politics and travel of the story make sense in Mesoamerica. Add in a New York Hill, and it becomes nonsensical.

In Mormon's Map, Sorenson closes by observing that no one proposing alternate geographic correlations has bothered to make use of his 112 element report card for grading Geographic Correlations. Why not? Perhaps because those specific requirements very quickly rule out any New York correlation and point to Mesoamerica. Hence, a preference for quoting authorities who "must have known" despite never showing any evidence of confronting the essential issues. Pay no attention to the verses behind the curtain.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Kevin Christensen]

Good points. But where does it say in the Book of Mormon that warfare ever occurred in the winter months?

See The Seaonality of Warfare in the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=740

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Rob Osborn]

Sorenson pointed out that all of the pieces of the Book of Mormon geography puzzle have to interlock and fit together. If some passages are ambiguous by themselves, other passages provide significant constraints. It's rather like solving a puzzle on Wheel of Fortune. Every correct guess tells not only tells something about the words, but also provides a limitations on the whole. If we don't have everything, we do have some important and telling constraints, including important ones on distances, as well as culture.

There are some two locations that are actually very specific. Brant has put forward one: "There is an identifiable location mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This requires a land northward of the main Nephite holdings, being devoid of trees, being near much water, and having buildings made of cement. That particular set of characteristics points rather directly at the Teotihuacan of 250-600 AD- which matches the time period in which the Book of Mormon points to this set of characteristics."

Whereas we are discussing where Cumorah is and not where other locations are, i will digress for a moment to appease. Joseph Smith's use of the word "cement" can mean a number of different things. Like you said above about all the pieces fitting together, Teotihuacan would be built by more of an idolatrous race, perhaps even a race that enslaves entire kingdoms to do their hard labor. The Nephite nations who went north were spoken of as never building exceedingly great buildings, only that they became expert in the working of "cement". Now, the word "cement" can be used both as a way to describe a building material, or, as a process of building. In this second sense, cement can be used to describe such structures such as "adobe". Adobe mortar is made by skilled workers who thus cement natural elements together and letting them harden. I have seen historians use the word "cement" in describing adobe. Adobe structures are found in Northern Mexico and into the four corners area to the north. Ancient civilizations became expert in these structures building entire cities in this manner. We certainly cannot rule out that Joseph Smith was referring to the Indians of the four corners when he referred to them using "cement".

Can you point to a location Northward of the New York Drumlin that is devoid of trees, has much water, and has buildings made of cement for the time period specified? And there is more. See Brant's FAIR essay on the Gaddiantons.

This is where we may have had a misunderstanding. I do not believe that the majority of events in the BoM happened in a New York setting. I believe that the majority of events happened in Central America, Mexico and parts of South America. When I am looking for an area described as desolation in the BoM I am looking somehwere in Central America or Mexico.

Larry Poulson offers another, in demonstrating that of all the rivers in the Western Hemisphere, only the Grijalva matches the detailed textual description of the Sidon. A description that eliminates every candidate but one is, by definition, specific, not vague. The source, for instance, must be in a narrow strip of wilderness that extends from the Eastern Sea to the Western Sea.

I do not want to get into the entirety of BoM geography at this point. I only want to discuss the merits of where Cumorah is.

Distances in the story provide another set of contraints. From Nephi south of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness to Zarahemla in the Sidon valley is about 22 days foot travel by people with children and flocks. That journey is a constraint on the story of Limhi's explorers, who had been given directions by their living grandparents. And the directions would have been something like, Go North to the Wilderness, find the source of the Sidon, and follow it to Zarahelma. It should take around three weeks. Where ever they went, they thought they had found the ruins of Zarahemla in the Land South. Getting to New York from South of the only river in the Western Hemisphere that fits the textual description of the Sidon might be possible, but it is not possible that having arrived there, and returned, that they would thing they had found Zarahemla in the Land South. It all works nicely however, if they followed the Uscimacinta, whose source is very close to that of the Grijalva. One wrong turns explains everything. And this circumstance is remarkable anywhere.

Some other distances are as specific. For instance, in Mormon's Map, Sorenson examines the military campaigns in detail, and finds that day marches between cities combine to depict around 80 miles of Eastern coastline.

Specific geological features provide other constraints. Active volcanos, for instance. While it might be understandably difficult to find horse bones, how does one go about hiding a volcano? In the bottom of Lake Erie?

Who's looking for volcanoes in New York? I never said the entirety of the boM happened in NY.

Even some of the narrative features that seem ambigious about distances with terms like "many days" or "exceedingly" run into ways that such terms must interrelate with less ambiguous features, and how such terms are used by the authors. Sorenson points out that in 1 Nephi 4, 20-21 "many years" turns out to be eight. (Mormon's Map, 72).

I found that in the Book of Mormon the word "exceeding" never appears to describe the order of magnitude that might justify distance to the New York Hill that makes sense with either Mesoamerican or far less, a South American Zarahemla, but rather that a circumstance exceeds normal measures or efforts.

"And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). He was teenager, soon to be married.

"And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). How much can four young men carry?

"They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). One can assume that even half again normal size would be dramatic enough.

"And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). This is talking about a spiritual experience. But a mountain even half again as high as its neighbors looks dramatically larger.

"Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be? The text makes sense with twice normal size, but 10 or 20 times is unrealistic.

The use of such terms is not a blank check, permission to justify anything, but cause for caution, and a need to ensure that the locations and distances must work with a real world correlation, which means looking for as many contraining details in related texts as possible. The story and details must make sense in human terms.

Of special note here is that no specific mention is made of where Limhis group goes. No direct correlation can be made that they went to and found Cumorah. They could have been hundreds, perhaps even thousands of miles away from the land of Cumorah.

One of the nice things that Larry Poulson points out about the Grijalva as Sidon is that such a location provides a parallel river with a proximate source for which the story of how Limhi's explorers got lost, and for the distane they travel, makes sense. And there is no way for the story to make sense if you try to tie it to a New York Cumorah region. (I provided some maps in my essay in FR 16:1). And there is also no way for the story of the volcanic destruction in 3 Nephi to make sense.

Again, I am not arguing where lands other than Cumorah are located.

All the parts must interact and interlock. This is true in the story of Omer in Ether. Sperry observes that the Hill Shim in the Land of Antum is proximate to the larger land of desolation which borders the Narrow Neck. The politics and travel of the story make sense in Mesoamerica. Add in a New York Hill, and it becomes nonsensical.

Again, the hill Shim has to be proven that it was in close proximaty of Cumorah. All we have are obscure passages that give no relation to distance- whether it was tens, hundreds or thousands of miles away. We have no real clue as to how close or how far away Cumorah was from the narrow neck.

In Mormon's Map, Sorenson closes by observing that no one proposing alternate geographic correlations has bothered to make use of his 112 element report card for grading Geographic Correlations. Why not? Perhaps because those specific requirements very quickly rule out any New York correlation and point to Mesoamerica. Hence, a preference for quoting authorities who "must have known" despite never showing any evidence of confronting the essential issues. Pay no attention to the verses behind the curtain.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I do know that of the very few times that the area of the land of Cumorah is mentioned in the text, at no time is it ever spoken of as being close to any of the popular places in the BoM. The land area is rather obscure, out of the way and apparently in an area to the north of which no mention of going further north than this area. As far as we can tell, Cumorah and the waters of Ripliancum are the furthest northern territories mentioned of in the BoM. I find it interesting that people can make many claims on why Cumorah can't be in NY when they offer no proof that it can't be there. To me the claims are very weak. Distance is the issue for most. But why? I await the answer, one I have never satisfactorally been granted.

[Nenahnezad]

See The Seaonality of Warfare in the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica.

http://maxwellinstit...d=66&chapid=740

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I disagree with Sorenson, in that he appears to be making some absolute statement that the descendants of Lehi and Ishmael only decided to fight before or after certain season(s) of the year - based on growing crops. If Mesoamerica has a year-around growing season, then why could not crops be continually growing? When it rains in Mesoamerica, it doesn't rain continuously - preventing the growth of plants, domestic or wild. It's not a continual deluge.

I also disagree with his Nephite Calendar. The Nephites kept the Law of Moses which involved a seven day week, not a 10-13 day "Maya calendar week" which was a solar calendar. He outright dismisses the use of a Lunisolar Hebrew Calendar by stating "moon" is used only once in the text - this is his typical argument for a lot of things* - and that by the Mulekites who came from Jerusalem.

*Example, Dr. Sorenson will state : "noanimals are mentioned in Nephi's Old World record (it is purely speculation that they utilized camels or anyother animals in their trek from Jerusalem to Bountiful).

[Nenahnezad]

See The Seaonality of Warfare in the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica.

http://maxwellinstit...d=66&chapid=740

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Sorenson: "Furthermore, had armies been fighting during the rains, they would have suffered significantly while traveling, camping, or fighting, for that time can be uncomfortably cool and unhealthy."

War should be comfortable. Silly stuff. And this from a WWII Veteran.

[Anijen]

I disagree with Sorenson, in that he appears to be making some absolute statement that the descendants of Lehi and Ishmael only decided to fight before or after certain season(s) of the year - based on growing crops. If Mesoamerica has a year-around growing season, then why could not crops be continually growing? When it rains in Mesoamerica, it doesn't rain continuously - preventing the growth of plants, domestic or wild. It's not a continual deluge.

I also disagree with his Nephite Calendar. The Nephites kept the Law of Moses which involved a seven day week, not a 10-13 day "Maya calendar week" which was a solar calendar. He outright dismisses the use of a Lunisolar Hebrew Calendar by stating "moon" is used only once in the text - this is his typical argument for a lot of things* - and that by the Mulekites who came from Jerusalem.

*Example, Dr. Sorenson will state : "noanimals are mentioned in Nephi's Old World record (it is purely speculation that they utilized camels or anyother animals in their trek from Jerusalem to Bountiful).

[Rob Osborn]

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 6:4)

Here is a satellite image of the area of western New York-

[ELF1024]

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 6:4)

Here is a satellite image of the area of western New York-

Notice all the snow? It's below Zero where I used to live in NY today. I don't see loincloths and shaved heads being in style...

[cinepro]

Notice all the snow? It's below Zero where I used to live in NY today. I don't see loincloths and shaved heads being in style...

I'm confused on the rules. When, exactly, is it permissible to use the lack of something in the Book of Mormon as evidence for or against it?

[poulsenll]

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 6:4)

Here is a satellite image of the area of western New York-

Here is an actual map of Misantla and the region just north of Misantla, Veracruz in Mesoamerica.

The waters of Ripliancum, as described in Ether were north of Ramah/Cumorah. The only waters north Cumorah/New York are the Great Lakes. Mormon described the Land of Ramah/Cumorah as

Mormon 6:4

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

David Ramirez Lavoinet "Relacion de Misantla" 1962, describes the region of MIsantla as

Beginning on page 70, the hydrographics of Mislanta are described as follows

Unos de los aspectos mas prominentes de la region de Misantla, es la abundancia de agua, pues es un distrito, humedo por naturaleza, donde jamas han existidos los problemas dificiles de otros lugares.

En todo su jurisdiccion abunden manantiales, lagunas, y arroyos.Los grandes rios forman una verdadera red hydrographica, y es notable que aun en los cerros, se encuentran peque

[Rob Osborn]

Here is an actual map of Misantla and the region just north of Misantla, Veracruz in Mesoamerica.

The waters of Ripliancum, as described in Ether were north of Ramah/Cumorah. The only waters north Cumorah/New York are the Great Lakes. Mormon described the Land of Ramah/Cumorah as

David Ramirez Lavoinet "Relacion de Misantla" 1962, describes the region of MIsantla as

Beginning on page 70, the hydrographics of Mislanta are described as follows

He continues describing the sources and effect this abundance of water has on the area and its inhabitants.

Although the Cumorah/New York area appears to fit Mormon's brief description, Sorenson's well documented arguments for distances in the BofM lands argues against a New York location. Especially, since at least three candidates are found in Mesoamerica that fit just as well.

Larry P

The waters of Ripliancum describe the great lakes quite well. Oceans in the BoM text are used by the words "sea" and such. "Ripliancum" on the other hand could very well be used to described fresh water or land locked large bodies of water. The Great Lakes fits this bill well.

As for distances, Sorenson does a poor job at explaining this. There is just not enough about the location of Cumorah in the text to nail down distances from Cumorah. There is nothing in the text that requires it to be close to the narrow neck as he suggests.

[Rob Osborn]

Notice all the snow? It's below Zero where I used to live in NY today. I don't see loincloths and shaved heads being in style...

We should nail this whole "loin cloth" thing down right now. I read the entire last battles of the Jaredites and Nephites around Cumorah and nowhere does it mention loincloths were being worn at these battles. The only clothing spoken of were armor such as breast plates, head plates, shields, etc. Certainly there were clothes under the breast plate otherwise the metal would damage the skin. Am I wrong?

[ELF1024]

We should nail this whole "loin cloth" thing down right now. I read the entire last battles of the Jaredites and Nephites around Cumorah and nowhere does it mention loincloths were being worn at these battles. The only clothing spoken of were armor such as breast plates, head plates, shields, etc. Certainly there were clothes under the breast plate otherwise the metal would damage the skin. Am I wrong?

None the less, the descriptions of climate in the Book of Mormon suggests tropical which NY is not.

No one in their right mind is going to want to do battle in the snow, and sub-zero temps that normally happen in NY during the winter.

[Nofear]

Mormon 6:4

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

I would like to see some analysis of the last phrase. Since Cumorah does not appear to be a place of a pre-established fortification, I suspect that the hill Cumorah was chosen because of the natural strategic advantage from terrain it could give the army that arrived there first (i.e. the Nephites). What about either location would address this?

[Rob Osborn]

None the less, the descriptions of climate in the Book of Mormon suggests tropical which NY is not.

No one in their right mind is going to want to do battle in the snow, and sub-zero temps that normally happen in NY during the winter.

Perhaps you should go back to the late 1700's and 1800's when many of the battles fought in America were done in cold harsh winter conditions. The history of New York in this era was known for battles with the Indians in the winter months. It is also noted that the Indians in these wars were not running around in loin cloths either. They didn't say- "hey you know, it's pretty cold, let's go to Florida to rap this thing up". Perhaps Mormon and Moroni wanted to draw their people up into the colder regions hoping that the cold would be a deterence for the Lamanites. Perhapos that was their advantage. On top of all that, we do not know at what part of the year the warring actually occured. It's all a weak argument. History has shown that people fight in both summer and winter. We know from archaeology that the Great Lakes region was a very important area for ore and that it was traded for thousands of miles over the course of thousands of years. One would thus think that it was the Nephites in general that controlled the Great Lakes area and that they were accustomed to living in those conditions. It would thus give them an advantage.

Nothing is made metion of th eclimate of the land of Cumorah, the same as it is with it's location in relation to other places.

[Rob Osborn]

I would like to see some analysis of the last phrase. Since Cumorah does not appear to be a place of a pre-established fortification, I suspect that the hill Cumorah was chosen because of the natural strategic advantage from terrain it could give the army that arrived there first (i.e. the Nephites). What about either location would address this?

It is interesting that the area of the hill Cumorah is one of the lowest elevation sites in NY. It is surrounded by mountains up to over 9,000 feet in height both to the east and to the south of it. The finger lakes also surround the area to the south and east. To the north are the Great Lakes which provide a barrier from attack. Making weapons would be much easier living in a land where ore deposits are plentiful. The hill Cumorah itself is the largest in the area for miles and miles. It is my opinion that the Nephite nation controlled this area for its rich resources- plenty of water, game, furtile soil, plentiful ore deposits, etc. When you combine this with the reality of winter I believe you gain an advantage over the Lamanites who would not be accustomed to this region, climate, etc.

[ELF1024]

Perhaps you should go back to the late 1700's and 1800's when many of the battles fought in America were done in cold harsh winter conditions. The history of New York in this era was known for battles with the Indians in the winter months. It is also noted that the Indians in these wars were not running around in loin cloths either. They didn't say- "hey you know, it's pretty cold, let's go to Florida to rap this thing up". Perhaps Mormon and Moroni wanted to draw their people up into the colder regions hoping that the cold would be a deterence for the Lamanites. Perhapos that was their advantage. On top of all that, we do not know at what part of the year the warring actually occured. It's all a weak argument. History has shown that people fight in both summer and winter. We know from archaeology that the Great Lakes region was a very important area for ore and that it was traded for thousands of miles over the course of thousands of years. One would thus think that it was the Nephites in general that controlled the Great Lakes area and that they were accustomed to living in those conditions. It would thus give them an advantage.

Nothing is made metion of th eclimate of the land of Cumorah, the same as it is with it's location in relation to other places.

That's a whole lot of assuming.

And yes, there has been a very good arguement made that the warfare happened around the winter solstice.

[Rob Osborn]

That's a whole lot of assuming.

And yes, there has been a very good arguement made that the warfare happened around the winter solstice.

Nothing in the text implies what time of the year those last battles were fought. Can you prove this wrong?

[ELF1024]

Nothing in the text implies what time of the year those last battles were fought. Can you prove this wrong?

Can you?

This was just posted today as well....

[Nofear]

The hill Cumorah itself is the largest in the area for miles and miles.

Ignoring the fact that the hill, in of itself, is far too small for the final scene, it doesn't look much to me that this statement is accurate.

USGS: Topographical Map, Palmyra, New York

Cumorah is at the bottom of the map and clipped a little but the Clifton Springs map shows more. While a significant hill it does not clearly seem to dominant.

[poulsenll]

Ignoring the fact that the hill, in of itself, is far too small for the final scene, it doesn't look much to me that this statement is accurate.

USGS: Topographical Map, Palmyra, New York

Cumorah is at the bottom of the map and clipped a little but the Clifton Springs map shows more. While a significant hill it does not clearly seem to dominant.

Using Google Earth, one can find hills that are 10 times the hight of Cumorah/NY within 20 miles. Cumorah/NY's highest point is a mere 116 ft above the parking lot at its base. In addition to being more prominent the hills in the Finger Lakes region would provide much more cover and access to fresh water. In fact the closest major source of water is at the Finger Lakes. Why choose Cumorah/NY when the more strategic region and source of water are just a few miles south. Mormon was an experienced military man and as he himself said , he wanted a place that would give his people an advantage.

Larry P

[mapman]

It is true that Cumorah is the largest hill in its immediate vicinity. However, if you zoom out a bit, it becomes a very geographically insignificant hill. I bet you can't tell me where the hill Cumorah is on this map:

[Kevin Christensen]

As for distances, Sorenson does a poor job at explaining this. There is just not enough about the location of Cumorah in the text to nail down distances from Cumorah. There is nothing in the text that requires it to be close to the narrow neck as he suggests.

No? Rather than asserting, and dismissing without specific references arguments detailed An Ancient American Setting, or The Sourcebook, or Mormon's Map, how about looking at the passages and interrelations between areas. The text says that the land of Desolation borders the Land Bountiful at the Narrow Neck. The story of Limhi's explorers describes how the men looking for Zarahemla in the South traveled to Desolation (remembering 3 Nephi 3:23, for instance), saw Jaredite ruins, secured Ether's plates, and returned thinking that they had been to Zarahemla, which they know to be in the Land South. They know from their grandfather's accounts about how far Zarahela is from the vicinity of Nephi. John Clark's detailed analysis of the internal text features supports the plausibility of Sorenson's model in the general proportions. (See RBBM v1) Clark has also demonstrated the implausibility of three different Great Lakes models, even without referring to Poulson's demonstration. (See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=14&num=1&id=420 )

Larry Poulson's research demonstrates that the Grijalva is the only river in the Western Hemisphere that matches the textual description, and that the proximity of the Uscimacinta accounts for how the explorers got lost and how they returned without finding Zarahemla.

We know from Mormon's account that his people were driven from Zarahemla, and had to sign a treaty giving the Lamanites the land south of the narrow passage (Mormon 2:29). So the next series of battles are in the Land Desolation by the narrow neck, bordering the Land Bountiful. After their defeats, Mormon takes the records from the Hill Shim (Mormon 4:23) After the battles near the narrow neck, Mormon writes and epistle to the King of the Lamanites, desiring to grant that the Nephites gather in the Land of Cumorah, by the Hill.

Okay. The story of Limhi's explorers only makes sense if the distance is reasonably close enough to the narrow neck that they could mistake it for Zarahemla.

And for that matter, the story of the Nephite's gathering at a Mesoamerican Cumorah makes sense, in terms of the negotiation that Mormon describes. However, telling someone who has just defeated the fortified cities at the Narrow Neck, to travel through Mexico, to Texas, to follow the Missippi up to the Ohio, cross, follow it up to New York, then leave fresh water behind, and gather at the New York Drumlin, and by the way, bring enough troups and supplies to be able to totally exterminate the Nephites, seems to me to be quite unreasonable. Even leaving out all the other interesting Mesoamerican correlations, notably Brant's observation that the description of cement users in Helaman 3:3-9) at a particular time fits only one location, and the correlations with the volcanic activity in the right time and place. Etc.

Also, the Mulekite encounter with Coriantumr makes more sense if everything is in Mesoamerica. As does the story of Omer's travels in Ether (following Sperry and Clark, noting how the different lands border and interlock.)

Plus the descriptions of the Nephite's having landed in the Promised Lands by crossing the Western Sea, and the Mulekites from the East. Written languages, governments of the right kind, the rise and fall of the right kind of civilizations in the right time and place.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Rob Osborn]

No? Rather than asserting, and dismissing without specific references arguments detailed An Ancient American Setting, or The Sourcebook, or Mormon's Map, how about looking at the passages and interrelations between areas. The text says that the land of Desolation borders the Land Bountiful at the Narrow Neck. The story of Limhi's explorers describes how the men looking for Zarahemla in the South traveled to Desolation (remembering 3 Nephi 3:23, for instance), saw Jaredite ruins, secured Ethers plates, and returned thinking that they had been to Zarahemla, which they know to be in the Land South. They know from their grandfather's accounts about how far Zarahela is from the vicinity of Nephi. John Clark's detailed analysis of the internal text features supports the plausibility of Sorenson's model in the general proportions. (See RBBM v1) Clark has also demonstrated the implausibility of three different Great Lakes models, even without referring to Poulson's demonstration. (See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=14&num=1&id=420 )

Larry Poulson's research demonstrates that the Grijalva is the only river in the Western Hemisphere that matches the textual description, and that the proximity of the Uscimacinta accounts for how the explorers got lost and how they returned without finding Zarahemla.

We know from Mormon's account that his people were driven from Zarahemla, and had to sign a treaty giving the Lamanites the land south of the narrow passage (Mormon 2:29). So the next series of battles are in the Land Desolation by the narrow neck, bordering the Land Bountiful. After their defeats, Mormon takes the records from the Hill Shim (Mormon 4:23) After the battles near the narrow neck, Mormon writes and epistle to the King of the Lamanites, desiring to grant that the Nephites gather in the Land of Cumorah, by the Hill.

Okay. The story of Limhi's explorers only makes sense if the distance is reasonably close enough to the narrow neck that they could mistake it for Zarahemla.

And for that matter, the story of the Nephite's gathering at a Mesoamerican Cumorah makes sense, in terms of the negotiation that Mormon describes. However, telling someone who has just defeated the fortified cities at the Narrow Neck, to travel through Mexico, to Texas, to follow the Missippi up to the Ohio, cross, follow it up to New York, then leave fresh water behind, and gather at the New York Drumlin, and by the way, bring enough troups and supplies to be able to totally exterminate the Nephites, seems to me to be quite unreasonable. Even leaving out all the other interesting Mesoamerican correlations, notably Brant's observation that the description of cement users in Helaman 3:3-9) at a particular time fits only one location, and the correlations with the volcanic activity in the right time and place. Etc.

Also, the Mulekite encounter with Coriantumr makes more sense if everything is in Mesoamerica. As does the story of Omer's travels in Ether (following Sperry and Clark, noting how the different lands border and interlock.)

Plus the descriptions of the Nephite's having landed in the Promised Lands by crossing the Western Sea, and the Mulekites from the East. Written languages, governments of the right kind, the rise and fall of the right kind of civilizations in the right time and place.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I tend to disagree on where Cumorah may be and why. I am not arguing here where the main cities were in the BoM as you keep implying. It is not hard for me to picture the battles stretching out over a greater area as the decades pass away. Take the American civil war for example. It was not fought in some tight close geographical area. It spanned a lot of area- that is the nature of these kind of wars. The destruction of the Nephite and Jaredite nations are really no different. What we must try to do here is not read things into the text but to examine whats there and be carful not to rule things out. From what I have read, we can't know the distance of Cumorah from the hill Shim, and we can't know the distance of the hill Shim from the narrow neck. Without knowing the placement of the hill Shim we cannot know it's relation from that point to the other areas.

The last wars of the Nephites spanned the entirety of Mormon's life. Continually he was pushed further and further north until finally the numbers of the Lamanites were so great that they were about to over-run the land northward. At this point Mormon asks for a retreat of his people into a land called Cumorah. It is vague but, it appears from the text that he spends about 4 years gathering the remainder of his people to this land of Cumorah. Now, if Cumorah was such a short distance away from the narrow neck and the land they were defending, why take 4 years to gather in your people to this land? To me it doesn't make sense.