Just where is the Hill Cumorah?

[Jon63]

Sorenson does not make his living from the Mesoamerican model. No retired, he made his living as a Professor of Anthropology. He does not make his living from his books. Rather his books and articles grow from his passion for the Book of Mormon.

Sorenson does not make money from his research in the way that Rodney Meldrum does, as a full time job, selling DVDs, or pimping seminars and tours, taking out full page ads, and casting aspersions on his professionally educated rivals as "profiting" while splitting with his own partner on grounds that he can make more money on his own.

Speculation that attempts to comprehensively account for all of the available information in the Book of Mormon strikes me as far more useful than speculation that selectively exploits a few ambiguous passages, and selective quotations from Authority figures without ever considering the quality of work that those Authority figures did, and very often, demonstrably did not bother to do.

Sorenson, on Wikipedia:

For more on Book of Mormon calendars compared to others see Spackman:

http://maxwellinstit...=7&num=1&id=170

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I completely apologise.

I have mixed him up with Rodney Meldrum and I withdraw my comment about him making money on the back of the Mesoamerican model.

[Sophocles]

Why did you say "Portland, Maine" and "Portland, Oregon" instead of just calling them both simply "Portland"?

I was wondering the same thing. In the Book of Mormon there are several people and places with the same name, and if anything the authors go overboard in distinguishing them from one another. Not so with Cumorah. If we can argue that there were two Cumorahs based on the fact that the text doesn't explicitly state that there was only one, then there could just as easily be two Zarahemlas, two Bountifuls, etc. Or more!

[Anijen]

For those who support a geographical theory could you please when posting provide your sources with a quote and page number for that quote, rather than just throw out a link to a book. I have come to the conclusion that this is not done because it supports the arrow heads and skeletal remains etc but after hunting down what I feel are the area that they might be referring to, it has only a bit of information and that bit is then speculated and in general added upon from what the text actually says.

Rob Osborn

In my studies I have found that the hill in NY fits amazingly well.

Could you be specific on how and why you feel this area fits so well? I mean I gave my opinion why it does not and listed reasons.

It was an area of last retreat.

How in specific terms was this hill an area of last retreat? Why is this hill any better of retreat than the other hills in the area? It is not that much larger. It is a plain hill with trees on it. It offers no strategical advantages than other hills around the area IOW the other hills could have been used for the same purposes.

It was an area of exceedingly great distance from the land of Bountiful and Zarahemla.

Okay I know you posit that the Hill in NY is Cumorah, where then do you feel the cities of Nephi, Zarahemla and Bountiful are? How far would you estimate them to be? Please back up your estimates with supporting text from the Book of Mormon and point for us a plausible geography for these cities. Just saying that you feel NY fits "amazingly well" is just a weak statement and giving a link to a book without giving us a page number or quote is just as weak. I will back up my opinions with not only text from the BofM that supports my theory but I will also point to geographical areas not only where the hill could be but why; for example the city of Zarahemla needs to be down from the city of Nephi but up from the coast (Alma 22:31) The area of Chiapas Mexico fits this criteria well its topography fits and is South of where most mesoamericanist place Bountiful and Cumorah. Now could you tell me with Cumorah being in NY where do you feel an area for Nephi and Zarahemla could be and then support your reasons with better support than a statement as "I have found that the hill in NY fits amazingly well." Please tell me what you have found and where you have found it.

In Nephite times it wasn't even discovered for hundreds of years. No 300 by 400 mile area is going to go unoticed for that long.

I don't understand this, please explain it better before I can comment on it.

What many people do not know is that American antiquities researchers in the 1800's found the area of wetern NY to be the site of a great extermination of peoples-

This could be read as in the 1800s there was a great extermination of people. I apologize for being snarky but I request a CFR. I have studied this pretty extensively. Please answer my CFR and provide support for this and not just a link to a book give us a page number that will support your theory. For example I have recently returned from Cahokia mound in Collinsville Illinois and I am in contact with William R. Iseminger the site manager of Cahokia and a very respected anthropologist. Cahokia was the largest of all the mounds and most populated of all the mound builders in the United States. It had warfare and advances in astronomy and agriculture but not until approximately 1050 AD and is estimated perhaps a population of 20K (at its peak) but before 1050 AD the population was only estimated around 1000 people. Could you tell me where in NY was a group of people that where more influential and more populated than Cahokia and list a source to that info? So when you tell me about the extinction of a people in NY please tell me where in NY and at what time period and quote a source with a page number not just a link to a book (which I have read BTW).

where an ancient civilization came to extinction by massive warfare.

Again CFR and please also list your definition of massive the source you feel backs up "massive" warfare.

It was common in those early frontier days to plow up large masses of skeleton fragments many of which showed signs of warfare.

Again CFR, yes it was common to dig up skeletal fragments (usually in the mounds) but where I dissagree is again your use of the word "massive." Is massive equal to ten skelatal remains? I relate massive to be in the hundreds perhaps even closer in the thousands and it is the thousands where we need to be to meet the text of the BofM. And these "massive" number of skeletal remains need to meet the time of the BofM.

Countless spearpoints and arrowheads were brought up from the earth.

I doubt they were "countless," Most of these spearpoints and arrowheads date way beforethe BofM and well after. You cannot take all spearpoints, arrowheads that have been found and date them to the time of the BofM let alone the final battle. Again CFR where any carbon dated spearheads and arrow heads have been dated to the time of the BofM and where found at Cumorah. Cumorah is a clean hill and not one skeletal remain has ever been found near there.

The massive scale upon which were found mounds and mounds of quickly deposited skeletins who had died in large battles.

Yes you have used the word massive repeatedly but have not provided any, not one resource that places a single skeleton at the hill Cumorah in NY.

Many of the hundreds and hundreds of earthen defensive works were plowed away but many still exist

. Okay I will give you this because I know they existed but not so much during the time of the BofM most were constructed and date well after the time of the BofM. Can you give a source that places any of these around Cumorah?

We know through archeological excavations that the great lakes area was a place rich in ore and that the land was heavily mined thousands of years ago.

Again please site your source (with page number), the CFR is on that they were heavily mined during the time of the BofM.

The ore was worked and traded down the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and down into the Gulf of Mexico and central America.

CFR. You are so full of facts it should be no problem to answer all these CFRs. Yes the trade was vibrant, in fact that is what the Hopewell tradition where very good at. What I would like to know is where do you find that the trade specifically the "ore" was traded. And please tell me how you know this "ore" went all the way to Central America? Why would Central America during the time of the BofM want "ore" from the great lake area when it had what it considered valuable right where they where?

This was of course prime land for the Nephites to gather their people, have an unlimited supply of ore, massive water-way system for travel and trade

. I don't have any problems with this statement although I do not feel it was the land of the people of the Book of Mormon.

The evidence speaks for itself http://www.archive.org/stream/antiquitiesofsta00squirich#page/n7/mode/2up

Not yet it doesn't. This is a good resource but it does not help the great lake model. Since you are the one claiming this supports your opinion could you please provide a quote with page number from this link?

Western New York was indeed the spot of a race of people who were exterminated- it was the Nephites!

Yes many members believe this however the area of Palmyra does not have much evidence that supports this that dates to the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerica on the other hand does has many more reasons and evidence than the great lakes currently provide.

Peace Anijen

[thesometimesaint]

Jon63:

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/think.htm

For the full story, a letter from President George Albert Smith, in response to a query about this particular ward teaching directive, needs to be considered. The message "was not prepared by one of our leaders," he writes. "However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed. I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church (President Smith's November 16, 1945, letter to J. Raymond Cope, Ph.D.).

Most other presidents of the Church have shared similar thoughts. Brigham Young, strong authoritative leader that he was, was greatly concerned about blind obedience, or members failing to seek spiritual confirmation regarding the pronouncements of church leaders...

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150).

One of the most often-taught concepts in the Church today is found in D & C section 9. Here the Lord teaches us to analyze what we hear, reach a decision, and then pray for confirmation.

Because God loves us, he has blessed us with prophets through all dispensations. He has not changed. He has also blessed us with great minds and promised us answers to our prayers, AFTER WE HAVE DONE OUR OWN CAREFUL THINKING.

Emphasis mine.

[Kevin Christensen]

I was wondering the same thing. In the Book of Mormon there are several people and places with the same name, and if anything the authors go overboard in distinguishing them from one another. Not so with Cumorah. If we can argue that there were two Cumorahs based on the fact that the text doesn't explicitly state that there was only one, then there could just as easily be two Zarahemlas, two Bountifuls, etc. Or more!

The question about two Cumorahs is not whether Mormon and Moroni game different hills the same name, but whether the early LDS were correct claiming that the New York is the same as the hill described in the Book of Mormon, which nowhere describes the hill in which Moroni buried the plates, but only a location from which Mormon obtained plates. They also thought that Panama was the narrow neck, but that identification is obviously both easy to jump to after superficial reading, and impossible to reconcile with close reading. It's the details the must be accounted for that make the difference. Limhi's explorers must pass through the narrow neck, and get to the Cumorah region, and return, thinking that they have been to Zarahemla in the Land South. If you ask Joseph Fielding Smith about this question, which was in fact one of the main questions raised regarding the New York hill, you get silence, and deference to traditional thought which also ignores the issue.

It is easy to distinguish the Bountiful in 1 Nephi from the one in 3 Nephi because details in the narrative make it clear that, among other things, there is an ocean crossing between them. For other questions, the answer must account for the details in the narrative. Those who have looked most closely at the descriptive information in the Book of Mormon (the ones who do that show their work) the Washburns, Sorenson, Clark, and Poulson, for example, all observe that the Book of Mormon descriptions are consistent in the narrative. Spacial relationships between cites and natural features, distances (when provided), ups, down, etc., all make sense. Look at Sorenson's Sourcebook, or Clark's Key for Examining Geographies, or Sorenson's Mormon's Map. The consistency in the descriptions is, but itself, a good evidence of a translated text. And that Joseph Smith seems not to have understood the geography is evidence that he functioned as a translator, not an author. Clark, in his Key for testing Book of Mormon geographies rejects one proposal on grounds that it arbitrarily made claims for multiple uses of names in a New World setting in order to justify its modern correlations. Moroni explicitly states that the Jaredite Ramah and the Nephite Cumorah are the same hill, despite the different names. Poulson has shown that the Book of Mormon includes many more passages describing the Sidon that it does concerning the Narrow Neck, or Cumorah. And from the description of Sidon, he shows that in the entire Western Hemisphere, there is only one river that fits. Teotihuican also uniquely fits the temporal and geographical description for the Book of Mormon passages on the land in the North where buildings were made of cement at a particular time period of the Book of Mormon story. The Sidon is in the Land South, and the hill in the Book of Mormon is Southward relative to the land of the cement buildings. Does the New York hill fit with those identifications? Larry Poulsen recently offered another Mesoamerican candidate based on relationships with the sea, and the need for a hill Shim in a proper relationship. For each location, and each candidate, the description has to fit, and all of locations and candidates must fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. It's a matter of complex convergences, as Brant says. Not just cherry picking, and declaring final conclusions.

Those who argue that the Book of Mormon hill is not the same as the New York hill do so by comprehensively piecing together the requirements given in the Book of Mormon text. Those who argue that the New York is the one and only hill do so with very limited and selective quotation (JSF being an obvious example, citing one exactly quite ambiguous passage, and ignoring numerous passages that raise the questions that he was supposedly resolving). We often see people who cite authorities who cite authorities who cite authorities on grounds that the Authorities along the chain MUST have known, even if they never showed their work. And in citing authorities who "must have known," they conspicuously neglect relevant statements from Alma, Helaman, Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni, who actually did know, if anyone did.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I was wondering the same thing. In the Book of Mormon there are several people and places with the same name, and if anything the authors go overboard in distinguishing them from one another. Not so with Cumorah. If we can argue that there were two Cumorahs based on the fact that the text doesn't explicitly state that there was only one, then there could just as easily be two Zarahemlas, two Bountifuls, etc. Or more!

Ugh, I didn't realize my point would generate such confusion and misunderstanding...

I was not implying that there are two Cumorah's mentioned in the Book of Mormon, just that some early church leaders may have dubbed Spring Hill, "Cumorah", in honor of the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Just as settlers in new lands often name settlements after the towns of their motherlands.

[Palerider]

Brigham Young

Journal of discourses:

"Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

2"

I've heard some LDS try to pass this off as a vision.......I just don't buy it. I think it was intended to be faith promoting and would locate the Hill Cumorah in New York, just as most thought in the 1800's

[thesometimesaint]

Palerider:

I believe it was a vision. There is no reason to believe that visions can not be "faith promoting" also.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I take with a grain of salt the second hand account of something someone said by a person who holds animosity towards the one who's story he is claiming to tell.

Is there anything by Oliver himself making telling the story claimed in Brigham's account?

[Palerider]

Palerider:

I believe it was a vision. There is no reason to believe that visions can not be "faith promoting" also.

No one said visions can't be faith promoting.

However the way this is described and the fact that others (Don Carlos Smith, etc.) were witnesses to the story or event, places it in the arena of an actual event, not a vision.

[cinepro]

Ugh, I didn't realize my point would generate such confusion and misunderstanding...

I was not implying that there are two Cumorah's mentioned in the Book of Mormon, just that some early church leaders may have dubbed Spring Hill, "Cumorah", in honor of the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Just as settlers in new lands often name settlements after the towns of their motherlands.

True, but when you say that, you are implying that early (and not so early) Church members called the drumlin "Cumorah" with the knowledge that it was a different hill than the one (or two) mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. If they had called it "New Cumorah", then you might have a point. But as far as I can tell, every Church leader that has spoken on the matter, and every Church publication that refers to the hill, doesn't distinguish between "Book of Mormon Cumorah" and "New Cumorah". They are referred to as one and the same.

So a better analogy would be something like Christopher Columbus and the "Indians", where something is mistaken for something else because a person thinks they're in a different location and it's a mistake. That's different than settlers in Oregon naming their city "Portland", while at the same time understanding they are not in Maine.

The closest the Church has ever come to acknowledging the possibility of a non-New York BoM Cumorah is the publication of Sorenson's article in the Ensign in 1984. But even then, the possibility is only hinted at, with the word "Cumorah" never actually being used.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No one said visions can't be faith promoting.

However the way this is described and the fact that others (Don Carlos Smith, etc.) were witnesses to the story or event, places it in the arena of an actual event, not a vision.

According to Brigham, the Smith boys were witnesses. Of course, none of them were alive to verify Brigham's story. And I assume this statement was made after Oliver died also.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So a better analogy would be something like Christopher Columbus and the "Indians", where something is mistaken for something else because a person thinks they're in a different location and it's a mistake.

Point taken. Thank You.

[thesometimesaint]

Palerider:

The New York "Hill Cumorah" is nothing than a drumlin(a loose collection of dirt and stone left over from the ice age when that part of what is now New York was covered with massive ice sheets). It is neigh to impossible for a cave to have occurred there. OTOH caves are quite common in Mesoamerica, and were used for religious, and cultural purposes.

http://www.wide-format-printers.org/FLAAR_report_covers/705570_sacred_Mayan_Underworld_Xibalba_caves_Guatemala_Popol-Vuh_iconography_archaeology_digital-photography.pdf

[Palerider]

Palerider:

The New York "Hill Cumorah" is nothing than a drumlin(a loose collection of dirt and stone left over from the ice age when that part of what is now New York was covered with massive ice sheets). It is neigh to impossible for a cave to have occurred there. OTOH caves are quite common in Mesoamerica, and were used for religious, and cultural purposes.

http://www.wide-form...photography.pdf

I agree. That's why I think the entire "Hill Cumorah", BofM story is without foundation. Obviously Joseph wanted the early saints to buy into it, but as most stories of artifice break down on close examination, so does this one.

Either the cave did exist as Brigham Young said it did........or he is prevaricating as indicated by "BookofMormonluvr".

[Rob Osborn]

For those who support a geographical theory could you please when posting provide your sources with a quote and page number for that quote, rather than just throw out a link to a book. I have come to the conclusion that this is not done because it supports the arrow heads and skeletal remains etc but after hunting down what I feel are the area that they might be referring to, it has only a bit of information and that bit is then speculated and in general added upon from what the text actually says.

Could you be specific on how and why you feel this area fits so well? I mean I gave my opinion why it does not and listed reasons.

How in specific terms was this hill an area of last retreat? Why is this hill any better of retreat than the other hills in the area? It is not that much larger. It is a plain hill with trees on it. It offers no strategical advantages than other hills around the area IOW the other hills could have been used for the same purposes.

Okay I know you posit that the Hill in NY is Cumorah, where then do you feel the cities of Nephi, Zarahemla and Bountiful are? How far would you estimate them to be? Please back up your estimates with supporting text from the Book of Mormon and point for us a plausible geography for these cities. Just saying that you feel NY fits "amazingly well" is just a weak statement and giving a link to a book without giving us a page number or quote is just as weak. I will back up my opinions with not only text from the BofM that supports my theory but I will also point to geographical areas not only where the hill could be but why; for example the city of Zarahemla needs to be down from the city of Nephi but up from the coast (Alma 22:31) The area of Chiapas Mexico fits this criteria well its topography fits and is South of where most mesoamericanist place Bountiful and Cumorah. Now could you tell me with Cumorah being in NY where do you feel an area for Nephi and Zarahemla could be and then support your reasons with better support than a statement as "I have found that the hill in NY fits amazingly well." Please tell me what you have found and where you have found it.

I don't understand this, please explain it better before I can comment on it.

This could be read as in the 1800s there was a great extermination of people. I apologize for being snarky but I request a CFR. I have studied this pretty extensively. Please answer my CFR and provide support for this and not just a link to a book give us a page number that will support your theory. For example I have recently returned from Cahokia mound in Collinsville Illinois and I am in contact with William R. Iseminger the site manager of Cahokia and a very respected anthropologist. Cahokia was the largest of all the mounds and most populated of all the mound builders in the United States. It had warfare and advances in astronomy and agriculture but not until approximately 1050 AD and is estimated perhaps a population of 20K (at its peak) but before 1050 AD the population was only estimated around 1000 people. Could you tell me where in NY was a group of people that where more influential and more populated than Cahokia and list a source to that info? So when you tell me about the extinction of a people in NY please tell me where in NY and at what time period and quote a source with a page number not just a link to a book (which I have read BTW).

Again CFR and please also list your definition of massive the source you feel backs up "massive" warfare.

Again CFR, yes it was common to dig up skeletal fragments (usually in the mounds) but where I dissagree is again your use of the word "massive." Is massive equal to ten skelatal remains? I relate massive to be in the hundreds perhaps even closer in the thousands and it is the thousands where we need to be to meet the text of the BofM. And these "massive" number of skeletal remains need to meet the time of the BofM.

I doubt they were "countless," Most of these spearpoints and arrowheads date way beforethe BofM and well after. You cannot take all spearpoints, arrowheads that have been found and date them to the time of the BofM let alone the final battle. Again CFR where any carbon dated spearheads and arrow heads have been dated to the time of the BofM and where found at Cumorah. Cumorah is a clean hill and not one skeletal remain has ever been found near there.

Yes you have used the word massive repeatedly but have not provided any, not one resource that places a single skeleton at the hill Cumorah in NY.

. Okay I will give you this because I know they existed but not so much during the time of the BofM most were constructed and date well after the time of the BofM. Can you give a source that places any of these around Cumorah?

Again please site your source (with page number), the CFR is on that they were heavily mined during the time of the BofM.

CFR. You are so full of facts it should be no problem to answer all these CFRs. Yes the trade was vibrant, in fact that is what the Hopewell tradition where very good at. What I would like to know is where do you find that the trade specifically the "ore" was traded. And please tell me how you know this "ore" went all the way to Central America? Why would Central America during the time of the BofM want "ore" from the great lake area when it had what it considered valuable right where they where?

. I don't have any problems with this statement although I do not feel it was the land of the people of the Book of Mormon.

Not yet it doesn't. This is a good resource but it does not help the great lake model. Since you are the one claiming this supports your opinion could you please provide a quote with page number from this link?

Yes many members believe this however the area of Palmyra does not have much evidence that supports this that dates to the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerica on the other hand does has many more reasons and evidence than the great lakes currently provide.

Peace Anijen

Holy bat cheese! That was long winded. For starters I believe hardly any of the evidences that are dated have any real reliability. There are just loads of problems with carbon dating things. The dates scientists have given to American cultures are so extremely out of the date of range that is required from an LDS perspective we must throw most to all of it out. I have a book on American Indian history and they give dates as far back as 20,000 years ago! That is way older than LDS beliefs on the origins of mankind (6-7 thousand years old).

The evidence I supplied with the book merely shows that there is credible evidence that shows the area of western New York to have once been the area of an ancient defense and ancient warfare. I stated these facts because many say there is no evidence in the area of there being battles, places of defense, etc. I showed otherwise.

I do not discount that events were happening in meso-america with the nephites and Lamanites, I am just stating that the lands of western NY were probably the same place that the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

One of the problems with establishing BoM geography is that we have no real place of known starting place. We cannot be sure exactly where the land of Zarahemla was or the land of Bountiful. We are not sure how the Nephite and Lamanite nations were fixed. We do not know their boundaries or even the places of their main cities of influence. All we have to this point is conjecture.

My opinion is that the hill Cumorah in New York is the same hill Cumorah that the BoM peoples fought their last battles. There is evidences that the area of western New York was set up as a last defense for a race of peoples now long gone. It is my opinion that this race was exterminated and they were the Nephites.

[thesometimesaint]

palerider:

I don't believe JS necessarily knew where the actual Hill Cumorah was. I've seen evidence both ways. That is one of the many question I'm gonna ask him when I see him.

I can't say that BY was prevaricating. It is my belief that it was a vision garbled and re-garbled in the telling.

[Palerider]

palerider:

I don't believe JS necessarily knew where the actual Hill Cumorah was. I've seen evidence both ways. That is one of the many question I'm gonna ask him when I see him.

I can't say that BY was prevaricating. It is my belief that it was a vision garbled and re-garbled in the telling.

D&C 128: 20

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets

[ELF1024]

D&C 128: 20

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets

[Kevin Christensen]

D&C 128: 20

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets

[High Priest]

Assuming the Hill Cumorah is not the one in NY, are there any hills that have been found anywhere in the Americas that have the remains of gigantic ancient battles of the magnitude mentioned in the BofM - 2 million Jaredite men (plus their wives and children) and 200,000 Nephites/Lamanites?

Ether 15:2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

[Anijen]

Brigham Young

Journal of discourses:

"Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

2"

I've heard some LDS try to pass this off as a vision.......I just don't buy it. I think it was intended to be faith promoting and would locate the Hill Cumorah in New York, just as most thought in the 1800's

Let say this is a true story. I actually believe in this story. Having said that just because a cave miraculously opens up for Joseph to return the plates does not mean it was inside the actual hill in NY. If The Savior can whisk Nephi away from the location he was in for his vision then surely the Lord can arrange a cave opening up in a drumlin where caves are all but impossible or he can have it open up there and when they enter it not be inside that exact New York location. To be more clear Joseph takes the plates back to the hill and by miracle a cave opens up and he walks into a cavern where many plates etc are does this mean it has to be the NY hill? I think not.

[Palerider]

.... and the idea of their being more than one Cumorah is completely lost on you...

Heavens to Betsy, you just proved the whole church to be false, last Mormon out remember to turn off the server....

The idea of more than one Hill Cumorah is a non-starter for me because it has to be engineered in order to provide an escape for Joseph's imposture. It grows out of the untenable position that "because Joseph was irrefutably a prophet" it then follows that there must have been two "Hills Cumorah" or some other fabricated theory and there you have it! Problem solved.....Now if we could just find that other hill.............

[ELF1024]

The idea of more than one Hill Cumorah is a non-starter for me because it has to be engineered in order to provide an escape for Joseph's imposture. It grows out of the untenable position that "because Joseph was irrefutably a prophet" it then follows that there must have been two "Hills Cumorah" or some other fabricated theory and there you have it! Problem solved.....Now if we could just find that other hill.............

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The idea of more than one Hill Cumorah is a non-starter for me because it has to be engineered in order to provide an escape for Joseph's imposture. It grows out of the untenable position that "because Joseph was irrefutably a prophet" it then follows that there must have been two "Hills Cumorah" or some other fabricated theory and there you have it! Problem solved.....Now if we could just find that other hill.............

How about, if you just follow the text of the BoM there is plenty of reason to suppose 2 different hills. "Fabcriacted theory", okay. I have not seen very good evidence to suppose that the Hill in NY is the same one spoken of in the BoM.