Just where is the Hill Cumorah?

[Pahoran]

There isn't any. Either way. At least anything direct.

You're right. It's not about archaeology at all.

It's about the internal evidence of the Book of Mormon text. Which is abundant and unequivocal.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Kevin Christensen]

Well, there have been over one hundred and seventeen posts in this thread. It has been demonstrated (at least to me anyway) that Joseph Smith and all of the prophets that followed him have stated that the hill Comorah has identified in the Book of Mormon is in New York State. It is beyond me how anyone who claims to follow the modern prophets of the LDS faith can claim otherwise. The only reason this argument comes up is because of archeological and scientific evidence. I agree with rcrocket on this one. If you are a true believing Mormon, then own your beliefs. Back your prophets and say stick it to the so called archeological evidence. This is religion for hecks sakes, it

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You're right. It's not about archaeology at all.

It's about the internal evidence of the Book of Mormon text. Which is abundant and unequivocal.

Regards,

Pahoran

I think it interesting that our critics want it and need it to be in NY because it is clear that the NY location is not very probable and thus it is easy to dismiss the BoM.

[sunstoned]

Because in reality, you'd much rather we throw the Book of Mormon under the bus. That is your only interest in this topic, and the sole motivator for your participation in this thread.

Isn't that right?

But once again, Sunstoned, it has been demonstrated to my entire satisfaction that you simply don't understand what Mormonism is about. The presumption of infallibility that you want to saddle us with is not part of our doctrine, and never has been. It wouldn't matter if all the prophets since Moses were to unanimously declare a location for Cumorah; unless one or more of them claimed specific revelation on the subject, their declarations would never rise above the level of opinion.

The old ad hominem attack by Pahoran. How surprising.

[Cold Steel]

In my studies I have found that the hill in NY fits amazingly well. It was an area of last retreat. It was also an area that wasn't accessed very much in typical day to day operations in BoM times. It was an area of exceedingly great distance from the land of Bountiful and Zarahemla. In Nephite times it wasn't even discovered for hundreds of years. No 300 by 400 mile area is going to go unnoticed for that long.

Oh, come now. The hill is not located in any land areas remotely appearing as Book of Mormon lands. The populations weren't anywhere close enough to sustain the battles. I don't care how many arrowheads you dig out of the ground, please remember that the battle that occurred there involved hundreds of thousands of warriors and their families who took years to move to the Hill's roundabouts and pitch their tents. The little drumlin in New York was not particularly strategic, and the description of it is such that it would indicate great size and height. Drumlins are all dirt and cannot support caves and internal structures. In fact, everything works against the New York drumlin.

Trust me, snow is mighty cold on the loin cloth.

Perhaps they were fur loin cloths.

[Calm]

Is there anything significant about the drumlin or its area that would be a reason that it would spring to Mormon's mind when thinking of an appropriate place for his people to make a last ditch effort? Were there any places that appear to be more appropriate militarilywise between the likely path of the very long retreat and if so, then what was it in particular about the drumlin (one of many in the area IIRC) that was so unique?

[ERayR]

The old ad hominem attack by Pahoran. How surprising.

Over ruled. It goes to motive.

[Rob Osborn]

Oh, come now. The hill is not located in any land areas remotely appearing as Book of Mormon lands. The populations weren't anywhere close enough to sustain the battles. I don't care how many arrowheads you dig out of the ground, please remember that the battle that occurred there involved hundreds of thousands of warriors and their families who took years to move to the Hill's roundabouts and pitch their tents. The little drumlin in New York was not particularly strategic, and the description of it is such that it would indicate great size and height. Drumlins are all dirt and cannot support caves and internal structures. In fact, everything works against the New York drumlin.

You are going to have to do better than that. How do you suppose it wasn't strategic? Have you been there and looked for a cave? How do we know it wasn't a man-made cave? How do you suppose it to be of great size and height? You seem to make a lot of guesses on my being wrong but offer no validation for your claim. Give me something besides weak argument.

[ELF1024]

You are going to have to do better than that. How do you suppose it wasn't strategic? Have you been there and looked for a cave? How do we know it wasn't a man-made cave? How do you suppose it to be of great size and height? You seem to make a lot of guesses on my being wrong but offer no validation for your claim. Give me something besides weak argument.

Well to start with... The Geologic History of Hill Cumorah; Cumorah's Cave;

[Pahoran]

The old ad hominem attack by Pahoran. How surprising.

Because, of course, there's nothing even remotely ad hominem about accusing us of throwing our prophets "under the bus."

Regards,

Pahoran

[ELF1024]

Because, of course, there's nothing even remotely ad hominem about accusing us of throwing our prophets "under the bus."

Regards,

Pahoran

You didn't get the memo? It's only an ad hominem attack when it's not sunstoned....

[Cold Steel]

The three aspects of northern geographic Book of Mormon locations that advocates have never overcome are, 1) population deficiencies, 2) weather, and 3) geographic inconsistencies. These advocates, to me, have to put their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet to find Book of Mormon geography north of the Mexican border.

Cumorah was to the north of the narrow neck of land and it was close to the coastal areas of the eastern sea. The narrow neck had been populated for generations by poisonous serpents, if you'll recall, which were so deadly that it virtually stopped all traffic from north to south, killing both cattle and people. These serpents must have been so formidable as to be able to kill people crossing in the snow and ice. Sadly, there is no evidence of any polar snakes in the area and, if they existed, they must have surely died out!

Mormon was born well to the north of the narrow neck, so he undoubtedly knew of the various landmarks between his home and the narrow neck. The only narrow neck in the New York area is a nearly horizontal strip running east and west between Lake Eerie and Lake Ontario. And the New York hill is to the south of it, not the north. So it's not really relevant to anything that the Mormon Hill is a drumlin that rises only 140 feet over the rest of the land, or that it's dirt and has not one whit of strategic value. It just doesn't fit. There are no compartments in the hill, no apartments, no caves or anything else. So to think that Moroni fled over the whole face of the land and then ventured back into the very area where his enemies were is a remarkable theory to say the least.

See also Jerry Ainsworth's page on the location of the Hill Cumorah.

.

[poulsenll]

In order to evaluate these possibilities, we need a geographic description of the land of Cumorah/Ramah and surounding areas based only on the text found in the Book of Mormon. A search of the text provides the following verses that contain geographic information related to the Land of Cumorah/Ramah.

Mormon 1:2-6

2 And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be blearned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a csober child, and art quick to observe;

3 Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the aland Antum, unto a hill which shall be called bShim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people.

4 And behold, ye shall take the aplates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.

5 And I, Mormon, being a descendant of aNephi, (and my father

[Cold Steel]

The Hill Cumorah is the same hill as the Hill Ramah of the Jaredites and is located near the hill Shim. Both of these hills have caves, a feature never found in glacial drumlins. So, where is the hill Shim in New York? If everyone in Joseph Smith's day thought that the small hill was the same as the BofM Cumorah, Why are there no mentions of the Hill Shim in this area?

One just has to find another nearby drumlin, I suppose. But the thing about drumlins is that any cave would have to be fortified by granite or some other stone -- and even then the dirt would tend to shift and undermine any internal structure. It also would have to be blocked in some way, and this is another problem. There are no openings anywhere on the hill.

I've never been to the New York hill, but I do have Google Earth and I don't see any strategic value to the hill in any way. Mormon wrote: "we marched forth to the land of Cumorah, and pitched our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites." So we're to believe that hundreds of thousands of soldiers and their families pitched their tents round about this hill. And the land was named after the hill, not the other way around. I would think it would be just the opposite with a hill that small and unassuming. Moroni also never mentioned the irony that the rest of the records were in the same hill and in Shiz.

Believers in the New York hill will never change their convictions, but it's like sticking a square peg in a round hole. It doesn't fit geographically, but I'm impressed with the evidence that points to Mesoamerica as the place. Moroni's trek up north and to the East, dedicating future temple sites, makes a lot of sense. I used to believe that the New York hill was it, but the more I study the issue, the more I'm convinced that the Moundbuilders were not the Nephites. Every military account, modern and ancient, that had anything to do with fighting in cold and ice, gave detailed accounts of it. Cold kills, and it can easily cause fifty percent of the casualties. Whether it's Valley Forge, the Battle of the Bulge, or Roman campaigns in Germany, military commanders who have to deal with cold detail it in their writings. So when Mormon and Moroni don't even mention it, one has to assume that they're not encountering it.

.

[Anijen]

Since we are talking about the location of Cumorah I would like to bring your attention to the scholars who were quoted in Meldrum's video (thanks liveylll).

January 4th, 2011

The following is a statement jointly authored by myself and the several other scholars indicated regarding our participation in the recent video production,

[Rob Osborn]

In order to evaluate these possibilities, we need a geographic description of the land of Cumorah/Ramah and surounding areas based only on the text found in the Book of Mormon. A search of the text provides the following verses that contain geographic information related to the Land of Cumorah/Ramah.

The following list, extracted from these texts , describes the land of Cumorah/Ramah and can be compared to the proposed candidates.

1. It is a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains.

I agree with this statement. In defending the NY site, the area around western NY is a land of many waters, rivers and fountains.

2. It is located in the land northward, north of the narrow neck of land separating the Land Northward from the Land Southward, in a place where Mormon resided as a child.

We do not know where Mormon resided as a child other than it was just in the land northward. We do not know if Mormon grew up in the land of Cumorah or if he grew up many miles from it. We just don't know for sure.

3. It is not part of the Land of Zarahemla.

Agreed. Zarahemla was strictly in the land southward, even south of the land of Bountiful which was by the place where the narrow neck is.

4. The hill Shim and the Hill Cumorah/Ramah are located near each other in this locality.

I disagree here in that we can't know the distance between the hill shim and the hill Cumorah. All the text says is that Omer was warned in a dream to depart and he traveled many days, (perhaps less than a year?) It says that during his travels he passed by the hill shim, passed by the hill Cumorah, and then ended up near an eastern seashore location. There is nothing in the text that suggests that the hill shim and the Hill Cumorah were close to each other. They very well could have been hundreds of miles apart or more.

5 The land of the Jaredites is many days journey from this land.

Agreed that from the place Omer left to the place where he ended up was many days. Where exactly the Jaredites were we are unsure of except for that they were strictly in the land northward.

6. It is south of the borders of the waters of Ripliancum.

Agreed. Of note here is that the word "Ripliancum" which "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all"

(Book of Mormon | Ether 15:. Note here though that they may not be referring to the ocean or sea. Perhaps they were referring to freshwater or land locked waters. Note ho win our modern day interpretation we call them the "great lakes" which we know exceeds all other land locked lakes on our country. A strong case could be made here that Ripliancum was used to refer to large lakes and river tributary systems such as the Great Lakes are. Any Meso-American geography doesn't show any waters that exceed all north of any local point. They probably would have just referred to it as the ocean or sea if it was the ocean or sea. Where might some large land locked lakes be in meso-eamerica?

7. The hill Cumorah/Ramah is east of the hill Shim and a short distance inland from a western seashore.

We do not know in relevence how far the hill Cumorah was from any seashore. All we know is that Omer passed by it and from there eastward until he came to the seashore. That is the only relevence we have in the text about anything to do with "seashore".

The Hill Cumorah is the same hill as the Hill Ramah of the Jaredites and is located near the hill Shim. Both of these hills have caves, a feature never found in glacial drumlins.

Again we do not know how far apart both hills were from each other. We also do not know if they were natural or manmade caves. We do know that Mormon was skilled in the workings of cement of some type. he could have easily dug a cave that was hard to access/hard to find and built structures to support itself within.

So, where is the hill Shim in New York? If everyone in Joseph Smith's day thought that the small hill was the same as the BofM Cumorah, Why are there no mentions of the Hill Shim in this area?

You would first have to prove that the hill shim and Cumorah were in the same land. BoM text tells us that the hill shim was in the land of Antum while the hill Cumorah was in the land of Cumorah- two separate locations, not the same location.

Moroni, in describing Omer's trip, mentions that he traveled many days to get to the Hill Shim. If the Atlantic was the seashore east of the Hill Shim, Why did Moroni not mention that it too was many days more journey to get there.

Moroni only said that he traveled many days and then says what he passed by in his travels. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the hill shim and Cumorah and the seashore were close to each other.

Just a few questions that need to be answered with respect to proposing a NY location for the the Hill Cumorah. Even if one can rationalyse that NY fits these criteria, are they as good or better than those proposed for a Mesoamerican location as described by Palmer and Sorenson or the recent proposal by Poulsen.(http://www.poulsenll.org/files/Geography_Ether2.pdf)

Larry P

Not to pick your analysis apart but you should only ascertain facts from reading the text, not conjecture. Perhaps your questions should be mmore like-

Do we know that the hills are both located in the land Northward? Yes

Do we know how far apart or close together thet two hills were from each other? We cannot presently know.

Do we know where the hill Shim is? We cannot know.

Do we know how far the eastern seashore mentioned in Ether was from the hill cumorah? No we cannot tell.

Do we know where the waters of Ripliancum are, they being somewhat close to the hill Cumorah location? We cannot know for sure where they are.

In conclusion, from the process of conjecture elimination, the facts that remain tell us that we cannot rule out the hill cumorah location to in fact be in western NY. The facts that do remain also do not rule out that the hills location to be in some other location outside of NY. As of the land of Cumorah in relation to the Land of Bountiful, the narrow neck, the Land of Zarahemla and the land southward we cannot know the true distance of the lnad of Cumorah from each of these places of location from the BoM text. All we know is that Cumorah was north of the lands mentioned. If it was 300 or 3000 miles we cannot know. How is it possible to rule out NY when we do not know the distance it was from popular and frquently mention lands in the BoM like the "narrow neck"?

[Anijen]

I agree with this statement. In defending the NY site, the area around western NY is a land of many waters, rivers and fountains.

We do not know where Mormon resided as a child other than it was just in the land northward. We do not know if Mormon grew up in the land of Cumorah or if he grew up many miles from it. We just don't know for sure.

Agreed. Zarahemla was strictly in the land southward, even south of the land of Bountiful which was by the place where the narrow neck is.

I disagree here in that we can't know the distance between the hill shim and the hill Cumorah. All the text says is that Omer was warned in a dream to depart and he traveled many days, (perhaps less than a year?) It says that during his travels he passed by the hill shim, passed by the hill Cumorah, and then ended up near an eastern seashore location. There is nothing in the text that suggests that the hill shim and the Hill Cumorah were close to each other. They very well could have been hundreds of miles apart or more.

Agreed that from the place Omer left to the place where he ended up was many days. Where exactly the Jaredites were we are unsure of except for that they were strictly in the land northward.

Agreed. Of note here is that the word "Ripliancum" which "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all"

(Book of Mormon | Ether 15:. Note here though that they may not be referring to the ocean or sea. Perhaps they were referring to freshwater or land locked waters. Note ho win our modern day interpretation we call them the "great lakes" which we know exceeds all other land locked lakes on our country. A strong case could be made here that Ripliancum was used to refer to large lakes and river tributary systems such as the Great Lakes are. Any Meso-American geography doesn't show any waters that exceed all north of any local point. They probably would have just referred to it as the ocean or sea if it was the ocean or sea. Where might some large land locked lakes be in meso-eamerica?

We do not know in relevence how far the hill Cumorah was from any seashore. All we know is that Omer passed by it and from there eastward until he came to the seashore. That is the only relevence we have in the text about anything to do with "seashore".

Again we do not know how far apart both hills were from each other. We also do not know if they were natural or manmade caves. We do know that Mormon was skilled in the workings of cement of some type. he could have easily dug a cave that was hard to access/hard to find and built structures to support itself within.

You would first have to prove that the hill shim and Cumorah were in the same land. BoM text tells us that the hill shim was in the land of Antum while the hill Cumorah was in the land of Cumorah- two separate locations, not the same location.

Moroni only said that he traveled many days and then says what he passed by in his travels. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the hill shim and Cumorah and the seashore were close to each other.

Not to pick your analysis apart but you should only ascertain facts from reading the text, not conjecture. Perhaps your questions should be mmore like-

Do we know that the hills are both located in the land Northward? Yes

Do we know how far apart or close together thet two hills were from each other? We cannot presently know.

Do we know where the hill Shim is? We cannot know.

Do we know how far the eastern seashore mentioned in Ether was from the hill cumorah? No we cannot tell.

Do we know where the waters of Ripliancum are, they being somewhat close to the hill Cumorah location? We cannot know for sure where they are.

In conclusion, from the process of conjecture elimination, the facts that remain tell us that we cannot rule out the hill cumorah location to in fact be in western NY. The facts that do remain also do not rule out that the hills location to be in some other location outside of NY. As of the land of Cumorah in relation to the Land of Bountiful, the narrow neck, the Land of Zarahemla and the land southward we cannot know the true distance of the lnad of Cumorah from each of these places of location from the BoM text. All we know is that Cumorah was north of the lands mentioned. If it was 300 or 3000 miles we cannot know. How is it possible to rule out NY when we do not know the distance it was from popular and frquently mention lands in the BoM like the "narrow neck"?

Rob, You are correct that it is northward and we cannot say how far but we can say and with certainty from reading the text put forth a reliable approximation. In Alma we read

Alma 50:29 Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

Note it says

[Pahoran]

In the Manti thread, rcrocket posted a list of prooftexts about Cumorah. The thread originator pointed out that this was off-topic and asked him to post it elsewhere, so I am bringing the discussion back here.

After referring to the hill as the same as Ramah and the site of the final Nephite battle, "[w]e know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abrigement . . . ." Pres. Anthony Ivins, CR April. 1928, p. 13.

Why do you keep highlighting this point, Rob? Don't you know that it is the one point that is not disputed between the two camps?

Everyone whose opinion on this subject is actually meaningful agrees that the New York drumlin is where Moroni deposited the abridgement. The point at issue is whether or not this was Mormon's record depository:

Mormon

Chapter 6

6c I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Thus, all the Nephite records were deposited in the hill Cumorah except the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph.

Are there any general conference sermons which support, even implicitly, the supposition that the final battles of Ramah and Cumorah took place somewhere other than in NY?

Are there any General Conference addresses which claim that the location of Cumorah is revealed doctrine?

Regards,

Pahoran

(Edited to fix spelling.)

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, You are correct that it is northward and we cannot say how far but we can say and with certainty from reading the text put forth a reliable approximation. In Alma we read

Note it says

[Anijen]

None of the verses you mentioned have much if anything to do with the land of Cumorah. It is nearly impossible to determine the distance from the narrow neck and bountiful with the land of Cumorah.And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

Nearly impossible becomes possible or a very good reasonable and logical assumption when we study. Add that with the scriptural "And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;"

[Anijen]

Conference Talks;

I would like to discuss Elders Marion G. Romney

[russianwolfe]

A military historian from West Point has argued that "ten thousand" were unit names and not actual numbers, plus Mormon 6:7 argues that women and children were included in the numbers, making this 210,000 people with only 30 thousand actual soldiers.

What I have learned from my study of military history (extremely meager study, by the way) is that units were not reinforced by recruits as they are in modern times. Even in modern times, there are units that have disappeared due to attrition. If the 'ten thousand' were the unit designation, it might have started with ten thousand or it might never have been ten thousand but just the designation of the unit size that was requested. And the unit might never have received any reinforcements after it was sent into battle meaning that it could have been severly decimated by battle and still be referred to as 'ten thousand'.

Marvin

PS In modern times, Cornelius Ryan relates in "A Bridge Too Far" that a British unit was practically wipe out during this campaign and was never reinforced and disappeared from the rolls of the British military. From ancient history, look to Roman military practice to see how they would form units but not reinforce them even though they might be severly decimated.

[russianwolfe]

I will agree that there are mormon experts who see the BoM as a historical record. But, and here is the big but, no non-mormon experts that I have heard of use the BoM as any historical text. As far as I know experts have called the BoM a nonhistorical piece of work.

It is true that the Book of Mormon is a non-historical work. It clearly states on the title page what it is. And it doesn't mention that it is a history. So it doesn't take an expert to come to this conclusion.

An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites

[Nenahnezad]

Warfare in the Book of Mormon happens during the winter months. Anyone who wants to wage war with shaved heads and loincloths in NY State is out of their gourd, and would freeze to death or fall prey to the elements in some other fashion. There is no way that anyone would want to wage war in the winter months in NY.

I lived in NY State several years ago, I moved out one cold day near the end of Jan. The day I left, there were three feet of SNOW in my front yard. I don't mean that if you take all the snow and pile it up, it would be three feet of snow. I mean that there was THREE FEET DEEP of snow all over my yard.

Trust me, snow is mighty cold on the loin cloth.

Snow is cold. But one battle recorded in 3 Nephi 4:7(11) states it was "in the sixth month." The First Month of the Hebrew Calendar is in the Spring. Hebrew Calendar at Wikipedia Thus this battle would have been in the Autumn, the harvest season, which would make strategic sense. Attack your enemy and take his newly acquired food. This is verified by verses 2,3,4 & 19 of the same chapter. And by this time in the history of the Nephite Nation, these robbers were wearing armor - also helping them brave the cold.

The Hebrew Calendar would also explain the "heat of the day" at the last day of the year as recorded in Alma 51.

Thus there's no indication in the Book of Mormon that warfare occurred in the winter months. Snow melts.

And if you think it doesn't get cold in Mesoamerica, read this: Chiapas "In the winter seasons you will actually hear Mexicans complaining about how cold it is. By a Canadian's standard its boiling hot but you actually see many Mexicans with colds."

Cold & Hot are relative terms.

[Anijen]

Snow is cold. But one battle recorded in 3 Nephi 4:7(11) states it was "in the sixth month." The First Month of the Hebrew Calendar is in the Spring. Hebrew Calendar at Wikipedia Thus this battle would have been in the Autumn, the harvest season, which would make strategic sense. Attack your enemy and take his newly acquired food. This is verified by verses 2,3,4 & 19 of the same chapter. And by this time in the history of the Nephite Nation, these robbers were wearing armor - also helping them brave the cold.

The Hebrew Calendar would also explain the "heat of the day" at the last day of the year as recorded in Alma 51.

Thus there's no indication in the Book of Mormon that warfare occurred in the winter months. Snow melts.

And if you think it doesn't get cold in Mesoamerica, read this: Chiapas "In the winter seasons you will actually hear Mexicans complaining about how cold it is. By a Canadian's standard its boiling hot but you actually see many Mexicans with colds."

Cold & Hot are relative terms.

You are correct that Chiapas (and other areas of Mexico) can get cold but this is actually a plus for a Mesoamerican setting. The talk of heat and feinting from the heat is a good indicator it was in a subtropical or tropical environment. If you are speaking of metal armor helping to protect from the cold I would disagree it would make you colder now if you are speaking of armor like the skins of animals which is exactly what the BofM says and is exactly what they did in Mesoamerica then again the hits just keep coming for a Mesoamerica setting rather than a great lakes model. Oh and BTW I would much rather be in the cold of Mexico than the cold of New York, just saying.